R+L=J v 141

[Greymoon]

Greymoon,

considering that Jaehaerys II wore Maekar's crown instead of Egg's crown my guess is that the Dragonbane's crown melted on Aegon V's head at Summerhall.

I'd assume that Jojen's dreams and green dreams in general come from a different magical tradition/line (the Children of the Forest rather than the dragonlords). It seems to be a traditional and well-known thing among the crannogmen, after all.

I hadn't thought about that. Gold wouldn't fit Jon anyway ;) he'd have something made of bronze and iron, imo, like the King in the North's, but of a simple design?

As for Jojen, I know it's supposed to be a different tradition, but magic in the books does seem a bit undefined, or ambiguous... and some experiences of different 'traditions' have startling similarities, like Dany's experience in the HotU, and Bran's when he eats weirwood paste.

...also, when Bran and Rickon both 'dreamed' that Ned was dead. This wasn't prophetic, imo, or even a greendream. I think it was something with Ned's appearance that reached out to them, maybe Ned himself. That was also the only time Hodor was scared of the crypts.

And Jon's recurrent dream about the crypts has a sort of prophetic quality to it, and is a parallel to Theon's. It's not a dragon dream though, like Dany's.

[MoonKnight21]

I was just reading GoT, and came across what I thought is a big clue. Page. 706 (paperback) from Brans POV: he says "I dreamed about the crow again last night, the one with 3 eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

He goes on to say the conversation he had with Ned was something to do about Jon.

Lya nas tomb is in the crypt.

And since Bran is known to have prophetic dreams and even dreams of things that have already happened, I think this was a big clue.

[IceFire125]

I was just reading GoT, and came across what I thought is a big clue. Page. 706 (paperback) from Brans POV: he says "I dreamed about the crow again last night, the one with 3 eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

He goes on to say the conversation he had with Ned was something to do about Jon.

Lya nas tomb is in the crypt.

And since Bran is known to have prophetic dreams and even dreams of things that have already happened, I think this was a big clue.

Welcome to the boards and stopping by the RLJ thread with your first post.

Yes, Ned and Jon will speak again... in spirit (for Ned) and maybe through Ghost/Bran (for Jon). Remember that Jon keeps waking up when he has Winterfell crypt dream, where he does not want to go down there, but he feel he must. A popular theory among fans is, Jon will be forced to finish his dream when he is in Ghost.

GRRM also mentioned many times about Jon wanting to talk to Ned about his Mom, about his past. I believe Ned's spirit will not rest until the 'promises' he made to Lyanna are complete in full.

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.”

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind. - AGOT Jon

“They were as close as brothers, once.” Jon wondered if Joffrey would keep his father as the King’s Hand. It did not seem likely. That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont’s permission. It would be good to see Arya’s grin again and to talk with his father. I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don’t care, I want to know. - AGOT Jon

If you will give her the peace she needs and the time to deal with Stannis, and pledge to carry her secret to your grave, I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall, with your brother and that baseborn son of yours.” The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg - AGOT Eddard

[Han Lotion]

How did Rhaegar get a blue rose?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

How did Rhaegar get a blue rose?

He asked for it at a local florist's.

Or you meant to ask a different question. Maybe:

Where did he get the laurel of blue roses for the queen of love and beauty at the tourney of Harrenhal?

He won the tourney and was given the laurel, as was the custom for the victor, to crown his queen of love and beauty.

[Dr Qyburn M.D]

The main thing that annoys me about R+L=J is the fact that the KG are just waiting outside the tower when Ned and friends arrive.

Why weren't they using the tower to defend themselves and Lyanna?, its seems as if they sacrificed themselves.

They could of just sat up in the tower firing arrows at them but instead choose a 7 v 3 fight.

"The Kingsguard do not flee" is this one of their vows?? They should have fled with Lyanna and Jon

I'm sure this has been asked before but I cant find an answer

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Why weren't they using the tower to defend themselves and Lyanna?, its seems as if they sacrificed themselves.

They could of just sat up in the tower firing arrows at them but instead choose a 7 v 3 fight.

Firing arrows has been marked as un-knightly and dishonorably in several places in the book.

They were going to fight honorably. They were also unafraid and expected to win, which they nearly did.

The three were among the most formidable fighters in all the realm (only Barristan and Robert might have come to match one of them), they were used to fight several foes and stand winning.

They were certainly modeled on the code of the knights templar from our own history, who were trained to fight three foes at once and so formidable in it they had it in their statutes that no group of knights were ever allowed to flee unless outnumbered more than three against one. So they showed of their glamour the way they did. Read At the tower of joy by @MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by @Ygrain for more on their mindset there.

"The Kingsguard do not flee" is this one of their vows?? They should have fled with Lyanna and Jon

It is probably not one of their vows, but lingers in their own code of honor.

Where do you think they might have fled to?

Who do you think they thought was their king they were protecting?

[UnmaskedLurker]

The main thing that annoys me about R+L=J is the fact that the KG are just waiting outside the tower when Ned and friends arrive.

Why weren't they using the tower to defend themselves and Lyanna?, its seems as if they sacrificed themselves.

They could of just sat up in the tower firing arrows at them but instead choose a 7 v 3 fight.

"The Kingsguard do not flee" is this one of their vows?? They should have fled with Lyanna and Jon

I'm sure this has been asked before but I cant find an answer

JW gives a partial answer to these questions -- mainly that the KG thought they would win the battle (and had pretty good reason to think so given the relative skills of the participants, even given the 7 to 3 advantage). Another part, however, was the need to kill all 7 of the men. The KG presumably wanted to wait until Lyanna either died or was able to travel before leaving ToJ. The KG could not risk one of the men escaping and getting reinforcements. So a face-to-face encounter was the best chance to kill all 7 and keep the location of ToJ a secret as long as possible.

Clearly, we don't have all the facts. But based on the facts we have, alternative explanations create more holes than they fill.

[Lord Varys]

Well, my guess is this thing looks like a parley gone really bad. Getting out of the tower at all is stupid, especially since the knights wouldn't know whether Lord Eddard was bringing only seven men - he could have had hidden archers and a whole army nearby - nor could they know they would not get some crossbow bolts through their armor.

If Ned operated under the 'abduction assumption' he may not have been willing to show mercy of play fair - the knights would have been the accomplices of the rapist of his sister, then. Robert - who could also have come - certainly would have operated under that assumption and would have shown no mercy to them.

I'm not sure the knights would have thought they had to kill everyone there. While Ned did only come with six friends they did not know who else knew of their location - if a rebel host was nearby or on its way there then killing them would be futile. The same is true if Ned knew where to look for Lyanna from somebody in KL - if that was the case then everybody knew or could have known.

[SFDanny]

Who do you think they thought was their king they were protecting?

That's the sixty-four million dollar question, isn't it? With knowledge of Aerys's decree they would have known their king was on Dragonstone. Their first duty should be, given that information, to go to Viserys. They chose not to do so. So what vow are they talking about? It isn't their Kingsguard oath to protect their king, unless they have decided to make a new king, other than Viserys. My suggestion is to read the four linked posts in my signature for my argument that the reason Ned admires these men has more to do with the knightly vows each has taken and their willingness to sacrifice their lives for innocents.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That's the sixty-four million dollar question, isn't it? With knowledge of Aerys's decree they would have known their king was on Dragonstone. Their first duty should be, given that information, to go to Viserys. They chose not to do so. So what vow are they talking about? It isn't their Kingsguard oath to protect their king, unless they have decided to make a new king, other than Viserys. My suggestion is to read the four linked posts in my signature for my argument that the reason Ned admires these men has more to do with the knightly vows each has taken and their willingness to sacrifice their lives for innocents.

I remember your arguments when they were initially posted and I reviewed them again now. I remain as unconvinced now as I was then. I do NOT believe that the KG knew about Viserys being named as Aerys's heir. Their words and actions are easier to explain if the reader assumes that the KG do not have any reason to believe Aerys made any such decree. I don't think your argument that it is unreasonable to conclude that the 3 KG would be able to get knowledge of the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon without also learning of the decree because we have no independent information regarding who else knew about the decree at that time -- whereas the deaths were known by many people.

So no matter how many times you re-post this analysis, I will remain unconvinced. I think occam's razor leads me to conclude that if Aerys made a formal decree to name Viserys as his heir (which I am not 100% convinced happened, but WOIAF suggests that it did), this decree was not known by whatever the source of information that the KG relied up to get them information. I don't find it hard to imagine such a thing -- and it explains the words and behavior of Ned and the KG much better than assuming they chose to ignore the decree and Ned admires them for the other reason that you outline.

I know you put a lot of work into your theory. I simply remain completely unconvinced.

[IceFire125]

That's the sixty-four million dollar question, isn't it? With knowledge of Aerys's decree they would have known their king was on Dragonstone. Their first duty should be, given that information, to go to Viserys. They chose not to do so. So what vow are they talking about? It isn't their Kingsguard oath to protect their king, unless they have decided to make a new king, other than Viserys. My suggestion is to read the four linked posts in my signature for my argument that the reason Ned admires these men has more to do with the knightly vows each has taken and their willingness to sacrifice their lives for innocents.

Actually, I suggest to read MtnLion's response to your post #4 just right below it. It makes much more sense.

Funny that in that post you mentioned about Ned's "lie was ... not without honor," yet you didn't connect it with when Sam mentioning that very words right in front of Jon (who was Ned's ultimate lie).

“You know you cannot keep her,” Jon said gently, “no more than I could stay with Ygritte. You said the words, Sam, the same as I did. The same as all of us.”

“I know. Gilly said she’d be a wife to me, but … I told her about the words, and what they meant. I don’t know if that made her sad or glad, but I told her.” He swallowed nervously and said, “Jon, could there be honor in a lie, if it were told for a … a good purpose?”

“It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose.” Jon looked at Sam. “I wouldn’t advise it. You’re not made to lie, Sam. You blush and squeak and stammer.”

He told me once that I was sure to die a maiden, that no woman would ever … you know … Jon, if I did this, wrote this lie … would that be a good thing? The life the boy would have …”

“Growing up a bastard in his grandfather’s castle?” Jon shrugged. “That depends in great part on your father, and what sort of boy this is. If he takes after you …”

All these ellipses, it's like GRRM dropping anvils on our heads.

[SFDanny]

Actually, I suggest to read MtnLion's response to your post #4 just right below it. It makes much more sense.

And my response to his. I leave it up to the reader to decide which makes more sense.

Funny that in that post you mentioned about Ned's "lie was ... not without honor," yet you didn't connect it with when Sam mentioning that very words right in front of Jon (who was Ned's ultimate lie).

“You know you cannot keep her,” Jon said gently, “no more than I could stay with Ygritte. You said the words, Sam, the same as I did. The same as all of us.”

“I know. Gilly said she’d be a wife to me, but … I told her about the words, and what they meant. I don’t know if that made her sad or glad, but I told her.” He swallowed nervously and said, “Jon, could there be honor in a lie, if it were told for a … a good purpose?”

“It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose.” Jon looked at Sam. “I wouldn’t advise it. You’re not made to lie, Sam. You blush and squeak and stammer.”

He told me once that I was sure to die a maiden, that no woman would ever … you know … Jon, if I did this, wrote this lie … would that be a good thing? The life the boy would have …”

“Growing up a bastard in his grandfather’s castle?” Jon shrugged. “That depends in great part on your father, and what sort of boy this is. If he takes after you …”

All these ellipses, it's like GRRM dropping anvils on our heads.

You seem to have misread my posts. No where do I dispute the idea that Ned lies to protect Jon. In fact, I've argued that point much longer than you or Mt. Lion, and most posters in these threads. And I still think, as I've argued for all those years, that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I still think Ned lied to save him. The quote above isn't about what Ned thinks, but about what Jon and Sam think. It may well reflect Ned's teaching to Jon, but it is not his own thinking as reflected in the text - which is why I left it out of the original post.

[SFDanny]

I remember your arguments when they were initially posted and I reviewed them again now. I remain as unconvinced now as I was then. I do NOT believe that the KG knew about Viserys being named as Aerys's heir. Their words and actions are easier to explain if the reader assumes that the KG do not have any reason to believe Aerys made any such decree. I don't think your argument that it is unreasonable to conclude that the 3 KG would be able to get knowledge of the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon without also learning of the decree because we have no independent information regarding who else knew about the decree at that time -- whereas the deaths were known by many people.

So no matter how many times you re-post this analysis, I will remain unconvinced. I think occam's razor leads me to conclude that if Aerys made a formal decree to name Viserys as his heir (which I am not 100% convinced happened, but WOIAF suggests that it did), this decree was not known by whatever the source of information that the KG relied up to get them information. I don't find it hard to imagine such a thing -- and it explains the words and behavior of Ned and the KG much better than assuming they chose to ignore the decree and Ned admires them for the other reason that you outline.

I know you put a lot of work into your theory. I simply remain completely unconvinced.

Not a problem. I can understand thinking the Kingsguard Trio might not know of the decree. My post certainly mentions it as a possibility. We just have no evidence that this one piece of what should be publicly available information did not make it to the Tower of Joy. I've shown why it should fall in the same category as the news of the events of the Trident and the sack. So, if you or anyone else has evidence to show they did not know, then I'd love to read it. I came up with the argument, at least in these threads, that the first duty of the Kingsguard Oath was strong evidence showing Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were guarding the person they thought was their king. I argued it for many, many years, but when new evidence comes to light all of us should be willing to look at old assumptions and consider that evidence. That is what my posts are about.

[Brandon_23]

I get this theory one thing im wondering is if its true and proven how real is jon's claim to the throne would he have it over dany or stannis not that it matters it will all come down to who has the army and who can not die to the white walkers.

[Avalatis]

I get this theory one thing im wondering is if its true and proven how real is jon's claim to the throne would he have it over dany or stannis not that it matters it will all come down to who has the army and who can not die to the white walkers.

It comes down to who has the political alliances/armies. Technically both Dany and Jon would have lost the right to the throne when Robert took the throne. But as the story points out, power lies where people perceive that it does. Currently Dany has armies, Dragons and is a known Targaryen. Jon is a sworn brother of the night's watch who isn't known (and will have a hard time proving) as a Targaryen with little power to flex for the throne.

If we follow Targaryen inheritance Jon would be ahead of his aunt (both by line of succession and male vs. female).

Jon has no interest currently in the throne, Dany does. Jon currently has no way to prove his claim to the throne, Dany does. Jon currently has no support for the throne, Dany does.

Though if Aegon is real he has the better claim and has a potential better position to claim it.

I think Jon has a good chance of becoming King via evidence of his birth, being the Hero in the war against the others, and by others deciding he is best suited to unite the various factions. Dany could do that currently but I think her fight with Aegon will be bad and she could decide she no longer wants the throne with other Targaryens alive who could take the throne.

[Maidenpool?]

What was wrong with Lyanna? Why did she die?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

What was wrong with Lyanna? Why did she die?

She had given birth a short time before her death. She had some post-birthing complication(s), probably an inflammation, a fever; some name puerpural fever. Whatever it was, it was not treated well enough to save her, if that was possible under the circumstances.

[Mithras]

What was wrong with Lyanna? Why did she die?

I think her death is somewhat similar to that of Padme.

She loved Rhaegar, the beautiful and enigmatic and scarred prince he was but after getting close to him, all of his imperfections should be revealed to her, especially after causing so much unintended pain with their elopement. Rhaegar was unstable, delusional, indecisive and whatnot. Lyanna was probably heart broken and disappointed, feeling deep guilt and shame.

[Greymoon]

The main thing that annoys me about R+L=J is the fact that the KG are just waiting outside the tower when Ned and friends arrive.

Why weren't they using the tower to defend themselves and Lyanna?, its seems as if they sacrificed themselves.

They could of just sat up in the tower firing arrows at them but instead choose a 7 v 3 fight.

"The Kingsguard do not flee" is this one of their vows?? They should have fled with Lyanna and Jon

I'm sure this has been asked before but I cant find an answer

They did sacrifice themselves, imo. While it's possible they could have fled, supposing they had the means and opportunity to do so, that probably meant leaving Lyanna behind and forsaking their honor.

Their prince was dead, their king was dead, and the Targaryen cause lost. Knights like Ser Barristan were given the choice to kneel to Robert -- but isn't that betraying Rhaegar's memory? That's I think, what Arthur, Gerold and Oswell are about... Of course, protecting Lyanna and Jon is important, but I believe their motivation goes beyond that.

They want to die with honor, by honoring Rhaegar's memory, by honoring their vows, and by dying at their post. The KG does not flee and doesn't forsake it's King, or Prince.

To these three, there's no choice, no question: they will make a last stand, or die trying, because they will not forsake their honor and cloak by entering the service of the usurper. It's a sort of old 'military honor' in a way, where the only honorable death is death for the cause/nation.