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[Spoilers] EP505 Discussion


Ran
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Well, as an example, how does Varys' decision to marry Danaerys to Drogo and have the Dothraki invade the 7 Kingdoms make sense now that their is no Aegon plotline? How does setting the various Lords of Westeros against eachother and then unleashing an army of raping, murdering slavers serve 'the realm' exactly?





I didn't think show Varys was setting the Lords against each other, I thought that was more LF.



What show Varys says is:



He (Illiryo) and I met many years ago, through mutual friends, a group of people who saw Robert Baratheon for the disaster he was. We tried to do what was best for the Realm, by supporting a Targareon Restoration. And thus began a chain of mistakes that have led us both here. Things have gotten worse, not better. Westeros needs to be saved from itself.



So basically, show Varys, at some point during Roberts rule, got together with some other people who thought Robert was useless, sought Viserys out in Pentos and married Dany to Drogo, hoping to enable Viserys' return to power in Westeros. We saw what happened from there.



Best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray :D



The Aegon plot is obviously filler, invented after GoTs was written. The original 'plan' was always to get Viserys crowned. And Drogo took care of that in Essos. Everything Dany has been doing, she has been doing by herself - her Dothraki horde was not part of anyone's plan, what she has become isn't part of anyone's plan - but now she is Varys' hope. Varys has decided to pick up the pieces of the Viserys plan with Dany - that's all.


Edited by ummester
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I didn't think show Varys was setting the Lords against each other, I thought that was more LF.

What show Varys says is:

He (Illiryo) and I met many years ago, through mutual friends, a group of people who saw Robert Baratheon for the disaster he was. We tried to do what was best for the Realm, by supporting a Targareon Restoration. And thus began a chain of mistakes that have led us both here. Things have gotten worse, not better. Westeros needs to be saved from itself.

So basically, show Varys, at some point during Roberts rule, got together with some other people who thought Robert was useless, sought Viserys out in Pentos and married Dany to Drago to enable Viserys to return to power in Westeros. We saw what happened from there.

Best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray :D

Varys has decided to try and pick up the pieces of the Viserys plan with Dany, now that it seems Dany has proven herself a ruler in Slavers bay - that is all.

You're forgetting the first season, where he met with Illyrio in KL and they discussed their plans. They mentioned that the Starks and Lannisters would soon be at war, and that it was 'too soon'. They clearly intended a war.

And I fail to see how an army of raping slavers entering Westeros is any better than Robert or his ilk. Varys could have just offed Joffrey or whoever. Hell, he could have offed any number of people in KL and it still would have been a better plan than invading with Dothraki.

Also, once Illyrio spent, say, 5 minutes in Viserys' company, shouldn't he have thought 'hmmm, let's not make this guy King, he's clearly a lunatic like his father.' How would mad Viserys be better than Robert?

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The books can be great and still make crappy TV. Ever seen a TV adaptation of 'to the lighthouse'?

There was no need to send Tyrion to Valyria in the books, he could just talk about the uncle who might have gone there. In the TV show the only way to put Valyria on screen was to send a character there.

What folk are really upset about is the show is going beyond book 5. It is either Stannis or Jon on that pyre in the trailers. So folk are not going to have the advantage over the unsullied any longer.

Putting a light in the tower is the obvious way to signal for help. Brienne isn't LittleFigner, she does things simple not so clever its stupid.

The Jeyne Poole plot was stupid, the lemon cakes plot was stupider. Just because you can't see the point in a scheme doesn't mean there isn't one. Besides which LF isn't that clever. He just does a bunch of stupid stuff and claims the bits that worked were a 'strategy'.

Maybe some people, I don't care that the show will finish the story first, I'm not sure GRRM is going to finish the story. I care that the show is extremely lazy on continuity and plot logic and has now a small mountain of unforced errors.

I also think that pyre scene was Mance, but maybe not.

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-And one more thing, why wouldn't Sansa know who the Kennelmasters daughter is? These people grew up together. All the Winterfell kids knew Farlan (see D&D, I actually pay attention to who these characters you use as throwaways are!), they'd know this daughter of his.

No, they did not grow up together. Myranda was Ramsay's lover already at the Dreadfort. He brought her with him to Winterfell, probably together with his dogs and kennelmaster.

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You're forgetting the first season, where he met with Illyrio in KL and they discussed their plans. They mentioned that the Starks and Lannisters would soon be at war, and that it was 'too soon'. They clearly intended a war.

And I fail to see how an army of raping slavers entering Westeros is any better than Robert or his ilk. Varys could have just offed Joffrey or whoever. Hell, he could have offed any number of people in KL and it still would have been a better plan than invading with Dothraki.

Also, once Illyrio spent, say, 5 minutes in Viserys' company, shouldn't he have thought 'hmmm, let's not make this guy King, he's clearly a lunatic like his father.' How would mad Viserys be better than Robert?

How does thinking there will be war and it is too soon prove that Illyrio and Varis intended war? I didn't take it like that at all - I took it like they were going 'shit wars coming and it's too soon for our plan'.

Re the Dothraki, the idea was that offering Dany for marriage the Dothraki would put Viserys on the Throne. I thought that was more Viserys' idea than anyone else and I got the feeling that Illyrio never thought it was going to work.

Illyrio had his eye on Dany fro some reason - he gave her those eggs.

Edit: I just re watched that dialogue - Season 1, Episode 5, time 21.46

Illyrio - What good is war now, we are not ready. If one hand can die, so can another.

Varys - This hand is not the other.

Illyrio - We need time. Kahl Drogo will not make his move until his son is born. You know how these savages are.

Varys - Delay, you say.

Illyrio - Move fast, I reply.

Varys - This is no longer a game we play.

Illyrio - It never was.

So they didn't want the lion/wolf war and it seems the only way IIllyrio thought they could control a Dothraki invasion was if Dany had Drogo's son.

Edited by ummester
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I didn't think show Varys was setting the Lords against each other, I thought that was more LF.

What show Varys says is:

He (Illiryo) and I met many years ago, through mutual friends, a group of people who saw Robert Baratheon for the disaster he was. We tried to do what was best for the Realm, by supporting a Targareon Restoration. And thus began a chain of mistakes that have led us both here. Things have gotten worse, not better. Westeros needs to be saved from itself.

So basically, show Varys, at some point during Roberts rule, got together with some other people who thought Robert was useless, sought Viserys out in Pentos and married Dany to Drogo, hoping to enable Viserys' return to power in Westeros. We saw what happened from there.

Best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray :D

The Aegon plot is obviously filler, invented after GoTs was written. The original 'plan' was always to get Viserys crowned. And Drogo took care of that in Essos. Everything Dany has been doing, she has been doing by herself - her Dothraki horde was not part of anyone's plan, what she has become isn't part of anyone's plan - but now she is Varys' hope. Varys has decided to pick up the pieces of the Viserys plan with Dany - that's all.

Your own explanation is contradicting itself. It requires for varys to want what is good for the realm and yet you say he wanted to help Viserys with the Dothraki. A horde of alien bloodthirsty rapist savages invading Westeros seems hardly ''for the realm''.

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I had no problems whatsoever with the contents of the letter that Sam recieved at the Wall. News from Essos should be a little distorted but even saying that at the end of last season Yunkai was mobilizing to march on Dany so saying that was under siege is not that far off from the truth. It just so happens that march on Meereen never materialized as Daario and Hizdar were able to broker some kind of peace. That being said who is sending that news to the wall and why are they doing it? That is the only issue I have.


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I had no problems whatsoever with the contents of the letter that Sam recieved at the Wall. News from Essos should be a little distorted but even saying that at the end of last season Yunkai was mobilizing to march on Dany so saying that was under siege is not that far off from the truth. It just so happens that march on Meereen never materialized as Daario and Hizdar were able to broker some kind of peace. That being said who is sending that news to the wall and why are they doing it? That is the only issue I have.


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Your own explanation is contradicting itself. It requires for varys to want what is good for the realm and yet you say he wanted to help Viserys with the Dothraki. A horde of alien bloodthirsty rapist savages invading Westeros seems hardly ''for the realm''.

I just re-watched the Episode 105 dialogue to work it out, see above. It seems that Illyrio always thought they could control a Dothraki invasion if Dany had Drogo's son.

Edited by ummester
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As both a fan of the books and the show I love seeing the analysis and book fan criticism as well as the interpretations lively created for us from the show Still the show continues to impress and I will continue watching it, after all this is FICTION created from another human being on planet Earth. Something people forget or don't realize is its someone else's imagination and you are just riding in it even if its not on the same level as GRRM. Regardless I think its exciting to watch 75% of what I read come to life on the screen instead of just my imagination. Also getting to watch it and introduce others to the series and not just get talked down that magic and dragons make horrible and uninteresting stories. Personally I will probably not buy the last two books based on the fact I believe the show will end the series much sooner and pretty much the same fashion as GRRM intends. When the final two books get released 20 years from now, I think those that read on will still cry about how the show did them an injustice and that it didn't include such and such while those that are happy with the show move on.


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And what line of dialogue made you say that?

Illyrio - We need time. Kahl Drogo will not make his move until his son is born. You know how these savages are.

Obviously Illyrio thinks Drogo wont do anything for their cause until Dany has his son. From memory that's pretty much how it was in the book also, Viserys thought Drogo would conquer Westeros for him once Dany was knocked up.

You know how these savages are, implies that they understand what motivates Drogo.

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3) Now this is the most pathetic answer really. As first, how do you go inside wall? Tell me, I want to know. I always wanted to go inside wall but never made it. Where is door to inside wall? And even more important: WHY THE FUCK DOES HE HAS TO HIDE ANYWAY? WHY DOESN'T HE ONLY HIDES DAGGERS AND MASKS? WITHOUT DAGGERS AND MASKS THEY HAVE NOTHING ON HIM!!! SONS OF THE HARPY ARE ANONYMOUS, THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE MASKS, SO THEY CAN BE NOT SUSPICIOUS WITHOUT MASKS!!!

Umm, maybe because he is part of an insurgency that is killing the Queen's soldiers and if discovered he would be facing execution? Like you know, what actually happened on the show.

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Illyrio - We need time. Kahl Drogo will not make his move until his son is born. You know how these savages are.

Obviously Illyrio thinks Drogo wont do anything for their cause until Dany has his son. From memory that's pretty much how it was in the book also, Viserys thought Drogo would conquer Westeros for him once Dany was knocked up.

LOL. This literally doesn't say anything about controling the Dothraki.

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LOL. This literally doesn't say anything about controling the Dothraki.

You know how these savages are.

implies that they understand what motivates them. If you know how to motivate something, you can control it.

I'm surprised that 105 actually synced so well with 501 - glad I re-watched it now.

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You know how these savages are.

implies that they understand what motivates them. If you know how to motivate something, you can control it.

I'm surprised that 105 actually synced so well with 501 - glad I re-watched it now.

That's such a stretch. But whatever you have to do to convince yourself the show makes sense.

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The Dothraki plot works fine for the show in my view it keeps it simple.


To take the throne you need an army, The Dothraki were an army. They are a savage lot for sure but then not much worse than The Mountain raping and pillaging the Riverlands. You don't really get nice cuddly armies who invade peacefully and take the throne with hugs.


Of course I much prefer the book plot with Aegon, The Golden Company, Blackfyres and what not but the simpler show version works fine on tv.



I have not read a single unsullied comment on how stupid it was to try to use the Dothraki to take the throne. Only people applying book logic find it unreasonable. Book logic doesn't apply here so this argument is null and void.


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The Dothraki plot works fine for the show in my view it keeps it simple.

To take the throne you need an army, The Dothraki were an army. They are a savage lot for sure but then not much worse than The Mountain raping and pillaging the Riverlands. You don't really get nice cuddly armies who invade peacefully and take the throne with hugs.

Of course I much prefer the book plot with Aegon, The Golden Company, Blackfyres and what not but the simpler show version works fine on tv.

I have not read a single unsullied comment on how stupid it was to try to use the Dothraki to take the throne. Only people applying book logic find it unreasonable. Book logic doesn't apply here so this argument is null and void.

? I am not applying book logic. I am applying show logic. It was stated in the show that Varys wanted for the Dothraki to invade AND that he wants what's best for the kingdom. A contradiction. Simple.

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How does thinking there will be war and it is too soon prove that Illyrio and Varis intended war? I didn't take it like that at all - I took it like they were going 'shit wars coming and it's too soon for our plan'.

Re the Dothraki, the idea was that offering Dany for marriage the Dothraki would repay Viserys by putting him on the Throne. I thought that was more Viserys' idea than anyone else and I got the feeling that Illyrio never thought it was going to work.

Illyrio had his eye on Dany fro some reason - he gave her those eggs.

I'm not sure that Illyrio and Varys were entirely on the same page - they both wanted a Targ restoration but where I think Varys was originally aiming for Viserys (as that is the Westeros way, to put a man on the Throne), Illyrio might have had Dany in mind all along.

If Illyrio had Dany in mind, why marry her to Drogo? Who in Westeros would accept a Dothraki King? I can think of no quicker way to turn potential Targ supporters against her than by telling them that their future King will be a leader of a murpillaping gang of slavers. Even the Dornish might go 'yeah, uh, no.'

And it stands to reason that Varys and Illyrio wanted war. If you're going to invade Westeros, you're going to need Westeros fighting itself or they'll crush you. The Dothraki would be annihilated by a united Westeros. Hell, even a semi-united one would do it.

And if their motive was basically replacing Robert because he was a poor King, surely you need a good replacement? Neither Viserys nor Danaerys, at the beginning of the series, look to me as promising alternatives.

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D&D have a broad brush stoke version of the end, not a blow by blow of the next two books. Whatever they did with Sansa it would be their work entirely as they've already used up her book material at as slow a pace as they could have - it's not like they rushed Sansa.

Same goes for Jaime and Brienne. They are out of book material. If lady Stoneheart will appear it will be closer to the end as her end game will coincide with other end games.

If you have to make up material any how why not combine their stories with other stories, especially where these other stories don't have familiar characters. Having Jaime and Bronn in Dorne allows there to be some familiar faces involved in the new storyline. Plus it means that when the sand snakes kill someone it's not just another Red Shirt but more likely Bronn. This death will have meaning and impact.

What, are you PR department for HBO? You're regurgitating all the justifications they told us long ago. Which in face of the poor continuity, plothole issues, and cartoonish show characters, doesn't sound convincing.

As for treating the audience like morons, this is a silly argument.

Why? Because you say so? Ever since i started watching, i though GoT prided itself in being an intelligent drama, suited to compete against the best TV (LOTR meets The Godfather, remember?). Now the show caters only to the lowest common denominator, some of whose examples are clearly in these boards.

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