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[Spoilers] EP505 Discussion

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Victim of the Double Post disease that has been plaguing this thread.


Edited by nara

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Not sure if this counts for you, but Tyrion said it right after the Red Wedding, or some variation. I created a lot of furor on this board.

Well, I should have specified I meant season 5, but I had totally forgotten about that from Tyrion previous. Now I'm going to have to go look at it again!

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- I'm also quite open to major plot changes. By all means, send Jon to Hardhome. But make sure that it makes sense. Why on Earth would the Wildlings believe Jon over Tormund that the ships are safe?

The wildlings would want to hear the offer from Jon himself, not from a second party. This way, they could get a better read on what Jon is thinking and figure out for themselves whether Jon's offer is sincere or not.

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To start with, the apparent change in standard Westerosi vocabulary so that everyone says 'nuncle.' Next up we have every single one of Brienne's chapters being absurdly repetitive. Followed up by Cersei turning cartoonishly incompetent for no good reason, and Jamie going on adventures that don't amount to anything. And so on.

ETA: Going to a more meta level, there is the overarching problem that GRRM is great at starting stories but bad at concluding them. He keeps spinning the plot out wider and wider in AFFC and ADWD with no apparent clue as to how it will circle back to the main threads or even resolve itself.

:agree:

The book was long and boring. There! I have said it! Just because it was long, repetitive and had lots of characters does not mean that it was complicated. It was not complicated. It was just long and boring. Suddenly GRRM dumbs his characters down so they are completely incompetent and they are just wondering around, doing nothing that ever advances the story line. They are just spinning their wheels, while he invents more and more characters that no one cares about. It is easy to invent characters and give them a background. If I asked any of you to give me 10 characters with full names and backgrounds, most of you could do that in 10 minutes. If I then asked you to give me 20 characters that are somehow related to the first 10 characters that you created and give me their back grounds as well, you would probably have it back to me by the end of the day. Now if I ask you to make the characters actually interact and do things while remaining true to the original character that you created, that is where you will begin to run into problems. Well that appears to be what has happened. He is just inventing characters to be inventing characters. They are not advancing the story. Possibly he does not know what he wants them to do. Possibly he has just lost interest in his characters. The point is that he has created a lot of pages of just information on people with just occasional spurts of actual activity.

Do I think the show is perfect? No, I do not, but I do think they are doing an excellent job of pulling out the bits and pieces of actual storytelling and putting them on the screen.

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I've long predicted that Missandei will betray Dany for love. I think the show will try to show that with her relationship with Grey Worm. And the books might show it with one of her brothers.

This. So insightful! I never thought of it myself, but it rings true. Although I am not sure there is a "three betrayals" prophecy in the show -- is there?

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Victim of the Double Post disease that has been plaguing this thread.

It's like the greyscale - do not reply to them. :laugh:

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This. So insightful! I never thought of it myself, but it rings true. Although I am not sure there is a "three betrayals" prophecy in the show -- is there?

Nope, Barristan is the one who will betray her for love.

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:agree:

The book was long and boring. There! I have said it! Just because it was long, repetitive and had lots of characters does not mean that it was complicated. It was not complicated. It was just long and boring. Suddenly GRRM dumbs his characters down so they are completely incompetent and they are just wondering around, doing nothing that ever advances the story line. They are just spinning their wheels, while he invents more and more characters that no one cares about. It is easy to invent characters and give them a background. If I asked any of you to give me 10 characters with full names and backgrounds, most of you could do that in 10 minutes. If I then asked you to give me 20 characters that are somehow related to the first 10 characters that you created and give me their back grounds as well, you would probably have it back to me by the end of the day. Now if I ask you to make the characters actually interact and do things while remaining true to the original character that you created, that is where you will begin to run into problems. Well that appears to be what has happened. He is just inventing characters to be inventing characters. They are not advancing the story. Possibly he does not know what he wants them to do. Possibly he has just lost interest in his characters. The point is that he has created a lot of pages of just information on people with just occasional spurts of actual activity.

Do I think the show is perfect? No, I do not, but I do think they are doing an excellent job of pulling out the bits and pieces of actual storytelling and putting them on the screen.

Congratulating yourself for saying something anonymously on internet is definitely pathetic. "There! I have said it!" Well good for you but it doesn't mean that what you said make any sense. And to be honestly it doesn't. As first, the book maybe was boring to you which is probably logical if you think that the show is good, but to say that characters are doing nothing is ridiculous. The way you show lovers keep parroting that as fact it really doesn't mean there is any truth in that. Now AFFC is possibly weaker then other four books because some important characters and arcs were missing but it still very good book on its own. Lot happens in Cersei's chapters and Jaime's too and also in Ironborn chapters that are brilliant. I also liked Brienne's chapters but even if you didn't I don't see how can you say that they are repetitive. Please tell me what is repetitive about them. It looks likes one of those things that people keep repeating without thinking what it actually means. Dorne is obviously set-up for what is to come in next books so I didn't have problem with that either. And Sansa's chapters are also set-up and by the way far more logical then the nonsense that we're watching in the show. And please tell me do you think that nothing happens in Arya's chapters too. You can dislike book, that is fine and your right of course, but to say that nothing happens or that there was no plot progression that is simply ridiculous because its inaccurate. And one more thing: what D&D left out from AFFC is maybe better than what they left in. As many suggested it was much better to leave Arianne and cut Sand Snakes for example. And also Tywin's death was enormous event in that book but in the show they were done with it in no time. Also Kettleblacks and Cersei's plots with them are much more interesting than her verbal sparing with Margaery or Ollivar the mail whore. And so on.

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Thoughts while watching:

- A number of people over in the book section seem taken with the idea of Dany as a villain. I never saw it in the books. I could see it in the show now.

I've gotten the feeling while reading the books and more and more in the show that Dany's true nature will be to reclaim the Valyrian lands her ancestors held before the Targaryens ruled.

- But I can't get behind the changes made to Tormund Giantsbane. This show has enough sullen, brooding men in it; there was no need to render one of the most fun and colourful characters in the books as such a dullard.

Huh? Tormund has been pretty fantastic so far. He did just have his friends and king murdered before him, so he's probably gonna sulk for a bit. You can even tell how his demeanour was brightened a bit after he realized he CAN be partners with Jon Snow again.

- I'm also quite open to major plot changes. By all means, send Jon to Hardhome. But make sure that it makes sense. Why on Earth would the Wildlings believe Jon over Tormund that the ships are safe?

Jon is being sent to act as a protection from any Nightwatch ambush that may occur coming back from Hardhome if Jon, the Lord Commander were not present. He's not going as much to convince them, that's why Tormund is there.

- "You ignore your counselors when you see a better way." First of all - when? Second - if Dany's going to see a better way, fine, but show her find it. She just went from "I hate the fighting pits" to "I'll open them, and by the way, you have to marry me" with no transition.

Her counsellors have constantly advised her to leave Mereen and sail to Westeros, but she wants to stay and learn to rule. It's clearly not going so well. I feel she still wants to rule, but has given up on the diplomatic/justice routine that she's attempted to use and instead is going to remind them who she is (a BADASS Targaryen Queen of Dragons), and will work with them to ease as much bloodshed as she can. But you've got to remember, she's really just a magnificent conquerer, and a terrible ruler. I feel like that's painfully obvious in both the show and books.

- Related to that note above - "you have as much right as anyone." Really? Does Missandai have any experience or training in politics, governance, or diplomatic negotiation?

I'm pretty sure it's actually been Missandei's job her whole life to do precisely that. Or atleast help streamline negotiations and diplomatic envoys.

- Another Mis/Worm scene, another minute I'm left thinking: you won't shortchange Arya to make room for characters from the book, but you'll shortchange Bran Stark for sh*t like this?

Word.

- I suppose greyscale was built up in the books, but I'm afraid I take no real interest in it. The scene travelling through the ruins was nice, though.

Yeah, I liked it. But it does sort of irk me that these Stone Men are in the wrong place entirely. But it aint no thang.

Edited by Polo

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I haven't the slightest. What I want to know is if some of these people are as smart as they think they are then why can't they seem to figure out where the proper thread for endless whining is located?

We can complain wherever we want as long as we abide the rules of the forum. This is a discussion thread. If you want to discuss to counter our whines, by all means do it.

The book was long and boring. There! I have said it! Just because it was long, repetitive and had lots of characters does not mean that it was complicated. It was not complicated. It was just long and boring. Suddenly GRRM dumbs his characters down so they are completely incompetent and they are just wondering around, doing nothing that ever advances the story line. They are just spinning their wheels, while he invents more and more characters that no one cares about. It is easy to invent characters and give them a background. If I asked any of you to give me 10 characters with full names and backgrounds, most of you could do that in 10 minutes. If I then asked you to give me 20 characters that are somehow related to the first 10 characters that you created and give me their back grounds as well, you would probably have it back to me by the end of the day. Now if I ask you to make the characters actually interact and do things while remaining true to the original character that you created, that is where you will begin to run into problems. Well that appears to be what has happened. He is just inventing characters to be inventing characters. They are not advancing the story. Possibly he does not know what he wants them to do. Possibly he has just lost interest in his characters. The point is that he has created a lot of pages of just information on people with just occasional spurts of actual activity.

Do I think the show is perfect? No, I do not, but I do think they are doing an excellent job of pulling out the bits and pieces of actual storytelling and putting them on the screen.

What does all that drivel even means? Whatever the case lady, stop speaking for all of us with your "he invents more and more characters that no one cares about". Geeze, show shills are seriously full of themselves.

Edited by Fjordgazer

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Congratulating yourself for saying something anonymously on internet is definitely pathetic. "There! I have said it!" Well good for you but it doesn't mean that what you said make any sense. And to be honestly it doesn't. As first, the book maybe was boring to you which is probably logical if you think that the show is good, but to say that characters are doing nothing is ridiculous. The way you show lovers keep parroting that as fact it really doesn't mean there is any truth in that. Now AFFC is possibly weaker then other four books because some important characters and arcs were missing but it still very good book on its own. Lot happens in Cersei's chapters and Jaime's too and also in Ironborn chapters that are brilliant. I also liked Brienne's chapters but even if you didn't I don't see how can you say that they are repetitive. Please tell me what is repetitive about them. It looks likes one of those things that people keep repeating without thinking what it actually means. Dorne is obviously set-up for what is to come in next books so I didn't have problem with that either. And Sansa's chapters are also set-up and by the way far more logical then the nonsense that we're watching in the show. And please tell me do you think that nothing happens in Arya's chapters too. You can dislike book, that is fine and your right of course, but to say that nothing happens or that there was no plot progression that is simply ridiculous because its inaccurate. And one more thing: what D&D left out from AFFC is maybe better than what they left in. As many suggested it was much better to leave Arianne and cut Sand Snakes for example. And also Tywin's death was enormous event in that book but in the show they were done with it in no time. Also Kettleblacks and Cersei's plots with them are much more interesting than her verbal sparing with Margaery or Ollivar the mail whore. And so on.

Come on, mate. There's a thread around here for people like you who enjoy kissing GRRM's ass 24/7, and it's called "Rant and Rave". Would you be kind enough to stop being a complete idiot and attacking people for thinking differently to you?

Edited by Barristan Whitebeard

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I was gonna say...if we're assuming that Missandei is ANYTHING like her book counterpart...she's actually a pretty good person to counsel with. She's been around powerful people and seen negotiations, etc. for most of her slave existence, and she's disturbingly smart. I don't see how Jorah has anything like this experience to his credit, though he does have more battle experience, obv.

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Come on, mate. There's a thread around here for people like you who enjoy kissing GRRM's ass 24/7, and it's called "Rant and Rave". Would you be kind enough to stop being a complete idiot and attacking people for thinking differently to you?

Please define "attack", Mr. Show Shill; i may be wrong, but i reckon it has something to do with name-calling, something StepStark hasn't done, unlike you. Sorry, but you lot seem to get the wrong idea. The one thread where we can't touch you is the "Positive Nitpicking thread", the one where you can't touch us (as it happens, some shills are so immature that they do go anyway to bust our balls) is "Rant and Rave". This is a discussion thread. If you think we're wrong, by all means address our points and stop whining for our presence.

Edited by Fjordgazer

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This is a discussion thread. If you think we're wrong, by all means address our points and stop whining for our presence.

I was not whining. I was simply stating that I thought the book was long winded and lacking plot.

What does all that drivel even means? Whatever the case lady, stop speaking for all of us with your "he invents more and more characters that no one cares about". Geeze, show shills are seriously full of themselves.

What I meant was that anybody can invent characters and describe them and all of their relatives and background. That is easy to do. Everyone here on the forums could do that. What is difficult is to make those characters actually do something. The books have become just a long winded who's who of the 7 kingdoms.

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The last 2 books are long and boring, I think Lovely Lyanna is correct in that. I also agree with her that the show is not perfect but it is trying to salvage what it can and tell a faster, more immediate story.



In terms of effort put into the whole ASoIaF/GoTs project, if we plotted it over time, I'd say GRRMs has gone from 150% down to 30% and D&Ds has remained a consistent 90%.



Who knows how it will all end up - but I'd put money on the ones that keep trying to actually deliver something on schedule.


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In terms of effort put into the whole ASoIaF/GoTs project, if we plotted it over time, I'd say GRRMs has gone from 150% down to 30% and D&Ds has remained a consistent 90%.

Who knows how it will all end up - but I'd put money on the ones that keep trying to actually deliver something on schedule.

:agree:

I like the earlier books a lot, but somehow the story has become just too large with too many plots and too many red herrings. It has become too bogged down to be able to even move one storyline, much less dozens of story lines.

Perhaps GRRM simply lost interest in the story or maybe it is an issue of his age. I do not know how many readers have actually dealt with elderly people, but one of the first things to go as people age is their patience and their attention span.

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Please define "attack", Mr. Show Shill; i may be wrong, but i reckon it has something to do with name-calling, something StepStark hasn't done, unlike you. Sorry, but you lot seem to get the wrong idea. The one thread where we can't touch you is the "Positive Nitpicking thread", the one where you can't touch us (as it happens, some shills are so immature that they do go anyway to bust our balls) is "Rant and Rave". This is a discussion thread. If you think we're wrong, by all means address our points and stop whining for our presence.

Maybe you didn't see (or, most probably, you chose not to see) the part where he called Lovely Lyanna pathetic.

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What I meant was that anybody can invent characters and describe them and all of their relatives and background. That is easy to do. Everyone here on the forums could do that. What is difficult is to make those characters actually do something. The books have become just a long winded who's who of the 7 kingdoms.

More drivel. Sorry. What you're saying here doesn't make any sense. Perhaps mixing up "world building" with lists of genealogy Bible style? WTH?

The last 2 books are long and boring, I think Lovely Lyanna is correct in that. I also agree with her that the show is not perfect but it is trying to salvage what it can and tell a faster, more immediate story.

Faster and immediate? Sure. Where did they leave coherent and logical? In season 2?

In terms of effort put into the whole ASoIaF/GoTs project, if we plotted it over time, I'd say GRRMs has gone from 150% down to 30% and D&Ds has remained a consistent 90%.

Who knows how it will all end up - but I'd put money on the ones that keep trying to actually deliver something on schedule.

:lol: Sure, it's quite the effort to produce a show this size, compared to only writing. Perhaps they should delegate one or the other, because the quality of the product has nosedived. It surely looks like they're worn out and want to rush things so they can move on to less tiring endeavors.

Edited by Fjordgazer

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Come on, mate. There's a thread around here for people like you who enjoy kissing GRRM's ass 24/7, and it's called "Rant and Rave". Would you be kind enough to stop being a complete idiot and attacking people for thinking differently to you?




Yes father. Sorry for disturbing your D&D fanboyism. It was my intention but now when I see how disturbed you actually are I really feel sorry. Don't worry, I'll go back to my reservation and leave the rest of internet to you. It's only fair, right?


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Maybe you didn't see (or, most probably, you chose not to see) the part where he called Lovely Lyanna pathetic.

Actually you're lying right now because I didn't say that Lovely Lyanna is pathetic but that congratulating yourself in anonymous threads is pathetic. There is difference between criticizing someone's actions and insulting someone ad hominem. I did the former and you did the later.

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