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[Spoilers] EP505 Discussion

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Maybe you didn't see (or, most probably, you chose not to see) the part where he called Lovely Lyanna pathetic.

"You're pathetic" is not exactly the same as "that behavior you displayed is pathetic":

Congratulating yourself for saying something anonymously on internet is definitely pathetic.

:rolleyes: I guess "reading comprehension" isn't really your forte. Not surprising at all.

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Anyway, eventually i'll stop raging on the show in this thread, because D&D fanboyism annoys me (and i say this as someone who kept promoting the show to friends up to this season's debut) but it won't be because you order me to.


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"You're pathetic" is not exactly the same as "that behavior you displayed is pathetic":

:rolleyes: I guess "reading comprehension" isn't really your forte. Not surprising at all.

And the funny thing is that some of this guys are unable to comprehend internet discussion but they don't restrain from passing some harsh judgments about GRRM's books. If someone isn't able to see difference between criticism and ad hominem attacks how is that someone to understand plot progression and character development?

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If GRRM concluded the saga with books 4 & 5, written with the complexity and narrative drive of ASoS, then everyone would have been happy. It would have been finished in writing first, keeping all fans of the books pleased and given D&D a clear blueprint to follow for the show.

And, 2 more books as plot heavy as ASoS would easily have turned into 4 seasons. I remember thinking the end of ASoS was almost too fast, like the author was staying up all night on crack trying to get it all out :D But it was all there, a complete and detailed narrative that addressed everything it needed to.

I suspect that getting signed with HBO caused GRRM to change his plan - I don't suspect anything nefarious, or underhanded - I just suspect GRRM tried to expand because he thought it was the best way to service a TV show. He planted all the trees that he thought would be cool, that will probably never be used, because TV show has to service the actors that service it.

Edited by ummester

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:agree:

I like the earlier books a lot, but somehow the story has become just too large with too many plots and too many red herrings. It has become too bogged down to be able to even move one storyline, much less dozens of story lines.

Perhaps GRRM simply lost interest in the story or maybe it is an issue of his age. I do not know how many readers have actually dealt with elderly people, but one of the first things to go as people age is their patience and their attention span.

This is possibly the most absurd thing ever posted on this forum. Now I've seen everything, really!

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Posters, why cant we play the ball and not the player? Have a debate on the show vs the books without getting upset at each other?



Why take it personally? Unless you are GRRM or D&D, that have a vested interest, they are just things made to entertain us that we can discuss the finer points of.


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Whenever someone points out a flaw in the books they are labeled whiners. That is rich coming from people who do nothing but whine about the show. All I am saying is that the books lack focus. You can call it complicated world building if you like, but the reality is that all he is doing is inventing characters and backgrounds. That is not difficult to do, nor is it interesting to read.


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And the funny thing is that some of this guys are unable to comprehend internet discussion but they don't restrain from passing some harsh judgments about GRRM's books. If someone isn't able to see difference between criticism and ad hominem attacks how is that someone to understand plot progression and character development?






Not only this, but the arguments they come up with to defend the show and attack the books, if not outright trollish or infantile ("you're a nerd", "butthurt purist", "reading sucks"), sound like amateurish logic contortionism or OTOH, the kind of explanations that kids improvised in school when the teacher inquired them and they hadn't studied one bit. Lovely Lyanna's rant is a perfect example of the latter, i think.


Edited by Fjordgazer

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Congratulating yourself for saying something anonymously on internet is definitely pathetic. "There! I have said it!" Well good for you but it doesn't mean that what you said make any sense. And to be honestly it doesn't. As first, the book maybe was boring to you which is probably logical if you think that the show is good, but to say that characters are doing nothing is ridiculous. The way you show lovers keep parroting that as fact it really doesn't mean there is any truth in that. Now AFFC is possibly weaker then other four books because some important characters and arcs were missing but it still very good book on its own. Lot happens in Cersei's chapters and Jaime's too and also in Ironborn chapters that are brilliant. I also liked Brienne's chapters but even if you didn't I don't see how can you say that they are repetitive. Please tell me what is repetitive about them. It looks likes one of those things that people keep repeating without thinking what it actually means. Dorne is obviously set-up for what is to come in next books so I didn't have problem with that either. And Sansa's chapters are also set-up and by the way far more logical then the nonsense that we're watching in the show. And please tell me do you think that nothing happens in Arya's chapters too. You can dislike book, that is fine and your right of course, but to say that nothing happens or that there was no plot progression that is simply ridiculous because its inaccurate. And one more thing: what D&D left out from AFFC is maybe better than what they left in. As many suggested it was much better to leave Arianne and cut Sand Snakes for example. And also Tywin's death was enormous event in that book but in the show they were done with it in no time. Also Kettleblacks and Cersei's plots with them are much more interesting than her verbal sparing with Margaery or Ollivar the mail whore. And so on.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :agree:

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Not only this, but the arguments they come up with to defend the show and attack the books, if not outright trollish or infantile ("you're a nerd", "butthurt purist", "reading sucks"), sound like amateurish logic contortionism or OTOH, the kind of explanations that kids improvised in school when the teacher inquired them and they hadn't studied one bit. Lovely Lyanna's rant is a perfect example of the latter, i think.

Actually I never said any of those comments and I would not because I would be to polite to say that. LOL By the way I never improvised in school because I was the nerd that studied. I have a master's degree and a bachelor's degree in my field of study, so I had to study. Guys, I love your passion and while I may call myself a nerd, I would never presume to call you one.

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Whenever someone points out a flaw in the show they are told "you kiss GRRM's ass 24/7". That is rich coming from people who do nothing but kiss D&D's asses. All I am saying is that the show lacks logic, coherence, substance, subtlety, respect for the viewer's intelligence, etc. You can call it streamlining or the inevitabilities of adaptation if you like, but the reality is that all they are doing is inventing characters and dumbed-down, idiotic fan fiction. That is not difficult to do, nor is it interesting to watch.


Edited by Fjordgazer

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Whenever someone points out a flaw in the books they are labeled whiners. That is rich coming from people who do nothing but whine about the show. All I am saying is that the books lack focus. You can call it complicated world building if you like, but the reality is that all he is doing is inventing characters and backgrounds. That is not difficult to do, nor is it interesting to read.

" all he is doing is inventing characters and backgrounds. That is not difficult to do, nor is it interesting to read. "

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: No words.....

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Fjordgazer,

Yes, the books have more internal logic than the show - I can admit that. They are complicated fantasy novels with a large focus on world and character building, if they didn't have an internal logic, their fans wouldn't like them.

Can you admit that AFFC and ADwD, relative to the 1st 3 books, took an unexplainably longer time to be written and contained many subplots and new characters that did not always seem directly related to the narratives set up in the 1st 3 books?

Edited by ummester

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Whenever someone points out a flaw in the show they are told "you kiss GRRM's ass 24/7". That is rich coming from people who do nothing but kiss D&D's asses. All I am saying is that the show lacks logic, coherence, substance, subtlety, respect for the viewer's intelligence, etc. You can call it streamlining or the inevitabilities of adaptation if you like, but the reality is that all they are doing is inventing characters and dumbed-down, idiotic fan fiction. That is not difficult to do, nor is it interesting to watch.

Once again, I never said that you are kissing George's ass, nor would I say that. LOL I certainly do not kiss D&D's ass. if you read my comments in the Rate the show section you will see that I thought that some of the show was choppy and that some of it was repetitive. All I am pointing out is that some of the problems lie in the fact that the show is an adaptation that has only 10 episodes to try to get all of the story in. I think they do a good job of pulling out the important pieces and telling the story.

My point is that a lot of your complaints are the same complaints that I have about the book. IMO a lot of the problems of the show come from a lack of a tight story in the books.

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I supported D&D this long, but I just can't. I CAN NOT bear this Dany arc.

She is supposed to be confused and mad and desperate when she wants to somehow restore peace.

Instead she marches to him and says "I will reopen the pits & will marry you"

Totally out of context and crazy.

WTF !!

So much shit in this frikkin episode about Dany.

What next D&D? Cercei coming up and saying "High Sparrow, Arrange a naked walk for me bitch"

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Once again, I never said that you are kissing George's ass, nor would I say that. LOL

Once again, you seem to keep missing that my latter comments are meant to be general, not only directed at you, even though i'm parodying you a bit. :lol:

Anyway, i'm done addressing you for the time being, because we're going in circles. Same thing to you ummester: we've had the same discussions in the Rant & Rave threads, where you kept coming and coming and derailing repeatedly.

Edited by Fjordgazer

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Can you admit that AFFC and ADwD, relative to the 1st 3 books, took an unexplainably longer time to be written and contained many subplots and new characters that did not always seem directly related to the narratives set up in the 1st 3 books?

This is what I am talking about. GRRM has lost his focus. Maybe he simply lost interest or maybe he is just have a hard time settling down enough to really think about where he truly wants to go with this. I also think that this is partially the editor's and publisher's fault. Maybe he feels that if he writes enough words and puts in all sorts of prophecies and red herrings, no one will notice the problems of the last books.

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The Missandei-Grey Worm forcemance should've really been cut, or at least toned down. I was actually interested in Grey Worm's little speech after he woke up. Thought it was a pretty cool insight into an Unsullied's mind and even more so his own. I was all with him, "Yeah... Woah, what does an Unsullied fear? Not death? Hmmm... Then what? Yes? Yes?!" Grey Worm derails the speech into something about not being able to see Missandei's face anymore. "Wha..." [insert table-flip emoji here]


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