Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Spoilers] EP505 Discussion

Recommended Posts

Finally.. Atleast one person who noticed this..

Dany as a badass is fine.

But Dany suddenly turning into Mad Queen and killing innocents is stupid.

Why does no one see this or even bother that the character (with good morals) was butchered in minutes?

No you aren't the only one: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/128675-poll-how-would-you-rate-episode-505/?p=6979229

We are all very upset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whenever someone points out a flaw in the books they are labeled whiners. That is rich coming from people who do nothing but whine about the show. All I am saying is that the books lack focus. You can call it complicated world building if you like, but the reality is that all he is doing is inventing characters and backgrounds. That is not difficult to do, nor is it interesting to read.

The books have ridiculous amounts of repetition and dual plot lines going nowhere. And folk who whine about the show often don't realize that what they remember from the books isn't in the books. For instance the sand snakes never do a damn thing in the books except getting locked up as potential troublemakers.

Does Show Cersei believe that Sansa has something to do with Joffrey's murder? I could be wrong, but I think she blames Tyrion only. Of course, I didn't do a season 4 re-watch before season 5 started so I could be wrong.

Cersei is convinced Tyrion had something to do with her father's murder. At this point she has probably forgotten about Sansa.

How anyone can claim that Sansa in Winterfell is good writing is beyond me... I mean, ignoring the ridiculousness of BatFinger's plan, has Sansa been taking stupid pills? Shouldn't she be acting charming and confident, a bit like Margaery? Instead, she's sulking and refusing toasts. If they're going to go with this 'make him yours' approach shouldn't she actually be doing that? Like, she should be making the toasts, playing nice with Ramsey and Roose and Walda, being suspicious of a random old lady who claims she's on her side. Just a 'thank you Lord Bolton, or should I call you Father?' and a smile. Or a 'It does feel a little strange to be back in Winterfell, Lady Walda, but I'm sure with a little time it will feel like home again.' I mean, I despise that they're supposedly playing it this way, but they could at least do it properly. Oh, and Sansa might appear smarter if she doesn't just walk down a dark kennel because some random girl told her to.

The dinner was epic. Book LF isn't half as smart as he thinks he is.

Not only is LF's plan to put Sansa in Winterfell quite in character, it is pretty much exactly the sort of thing real politicians have done. In 1989 when the Berlin Wall was about to come down, Margaret Thatcher went to Gorbachev and in a private meeting begged him to put a stop to the demonstrations. She also claimed to be speaking for President Bush. That conversation is very well documented, it turned up in Gorbachev's archives under their 20 year rule. It is also consistent with a long running claim about Bush the elder and Howard Baker.

The thing is that at a certain point, people who occupy high offices have to explain to themselves why they have the job rather than some other shlub, what makes them special? Well only they can see what others can't and make 'Nixon in China' type decisions. Only nine times out of ten, such moves are actually kinda stupid for the sake of being different. This is what the US right is currently worrying Obama might be up to, a US-Iran alliance makes a lot of sense strategically. Instead of a bipolar engagement with three regional powers (Turkey, Israel, Saud) aligned with the US and one with Russia, the US is aligned with all four regional powers and can play each off against the other as it pleases.

If you are rejecting LF's plan because you don't understand it, that is because you are not meant to. LF's plans only make sense to LF. Look at what he has achieved so far, he has risen from master of coin to Lord of a ruined castle at the cost of the death of the love of his life and a civil war. Like Putin, LF is a vastly over-inflated ego who mistakes temporary tactical advantage for success.

Of course LF will sit on the Dragon Throne at some point. Probably as Cersei's husband. But he won't last a day in the post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon and Dany are getting leadership parallels, they also get the 'Do it your way' speech. I'm wondering what the end point to that is, they both with end this year in failure with the people they are meant to lead turning on them. Maybe its setting them up as opposites in how they deal with these things? As we've seen Dany is going off the deep end a bit but Jons failures aren't as spectacular. Need to think about that some more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Dany places unwavering trust in him. As you say, he is a mercenary and not random he is Dany's lover. Who is to say he can't see monetary advantage in conspiring? He beheaded the other leaders of the Second sons remember. This guy is not the most loyal of men.

2. We know he supports the old slavery traditions like the fighting pits but it seems to be glossed over. He did well out of slavery it seems.

3. There is growing background tension between Daario and Hizdahr, seemingly to make Hizdahr look guilty but I get the impression he is a diversion.

4. Daario's tour with Grey Worm about how they don't know fear. Or was he just in on the Harpy's tactics?

5. The reveal would be the end of Dany in Mereen, she fed an innocent man to dragons while making others watch and fear for their lives. She targeted the old families with no real evidence, just suspicion. This is after killing over 100 of them without mercy or trial. If it turns out it wasn't actually them? It would be Barristan's words coming back to bite her in the ass which seems to be a theme this year. She disgraced everything he stood for this episode and Barristan will be right.

6. The insurgency isn't going to stop after this episode. Her dragon horror won't stop it. So either the Old families are suicidal or she's threatened the wrong people.

7. Hizdahr is our only face of the old families and if he is meant to represent them then they are bricking it. The reveal of the leaders of the Sons of the Harpy will be of someone we recognise. Hizdahr has been too obvious.

8. This began after he returned from negotiating with slavers who wanted slavers bay back and the only condition was the fighting pits? Deal done?

your theory can be disproved just by looking at the trailers and leaked photos during the filming of daznak pit

if he was leader of the harpy as you say then that would have been the moment he turns against dany but instead he is fighting for her killing harpies in the pit as we can see in the trailer ...

he and jorah are the one protecting dany when the Sons of harpies round them up in the arena

Edited by Drogonthedread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon and Dany are getting leadership parallels, they also get the 'Do it your way' speech. I'm wondering what the end point to that is, they both with end this year in failure with the people they are meant to lead turning on them. Maybe its setting them up as opposites in how they deal with these things? As we've seen Dany is going off the deep end a bit but Jons failures aren't as spectacular. Need to think about that some more.

ofcourse his failures arent as spectacular because he is the leader of a brotherhood that has what hundeds of people in the show and thousands in the books..so it will not be the same

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

your theory can be disproved just by looking at the trailers and leaked photos during the filming of daznak pit

if he was leader of the harpy as you say then that would have been the moment he turns against dany but instead he is fighting for her killing harpies in the pit as we can see in the trailer ...

he and jorah are the one protecting dany when the Sons of harpies round them up in the arena

And he is also the one 'hunting' them with the most success. What makes you think Daznak is the end point if he is de-stabilising Mereen for an Astapori attack?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And he is also the one 'hunting' them with the most success. What makes you think Daznak is the end point if he is de-stabilising Mereen for an Astapori attack?

because there have been no mentions about an invasion by other cities ..

i dont know whats the point if he his going to kill dany he could have done that plenty times when they are alone and if he is not turning to kill dany when there is no one left to protect her in the pit then i dont know when he will turn ..

all you do is pick a scene which was used to show unsullied cant really be best at finding the harpies and IMO darrio's line about finding the harpy was simply him bragging about how second sons are better than unsullied

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon and Dany are getting leadership parallels, they also get the 'Do it your way' speech. I'm wondering what the end point to that is, they both with end this year in failure with the people they are meant to lead turning on them. Maybe its setting them up as opposites in how they deal with these things? As we've seen Dany is going off the deep end a bit but Jons failures aren't as spectacular. Need to think about that some more.

The speeches were made with the oldest and the youngest advisors around them is also a kind of parallel. Like you said, at the end of the season they will both probably bond with their "pets" more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The books have ridiculous amounts of repetition and dual plot lines going nowhere. And folk who whine about the show often don't realize that what they remember from the books isn't in the books. For instance the sand snakes never do a damn thing in the books except getting locked up as potential troublemakers.

The dinner was epic. Book LF isn't half as smart as he thinks he is.

Not only is LF's plan to put Sansa in Winterfell quite in character, it is pretty much exactly the sort of thing real politicians have done. In 1989 when the Berlin Wall was about to come down, Margaret Thatcher went to Gorbachev and in a private meeting begged him to put a stop to the demonstrations. She also claimed to be speaking for President Bush. That conversation is very well documented, it turned up in Gorbachev's archives under their 20 year rule. It is also consistent with a long running claim about Bush the elder and Howard Baker.

The thing is that at a certain point, people who occupy high offices have to explain to themselves why they have the job rather than some other shlub, what makes them special? Well only they can see what others can't and make 'Nixon in China' type decisions. Only nine times out of ten, such moves are actually kinda stupid for the sake of being different. This is what the US right is currently worrying Obama might be up to, a US-Iran alliance makes a lot of sense strategically. Instead of a bipolar engagement with three regional powers (Turkey, Israel, Saud) aligned with the US and one with Russia, the US is aligned with all four regional powers and can play each off against the other as it pleases.

If you are rejecting LF's plan because you don't understand it, that is because you are not meant to. LF's plans only make sense to LF. Look at what he has achieved so far, he has risen from master of coin to Lord of a ruined castle at the cost of the death of the love of his life and a civil war. Like Putin, LF is a vastly over-inflated ego who mistakes temporary tactical advantage for success.

Of course LF will sit on the Dragon Throne at some point. Probably as Cersei's husband. But he won't last a day in the post.

BatFinger's plan is stupid. It puts Sansa in an extraordinary amount of danger that is unnecessary. If BatFinger wants Sansa to ally with whoever comes out on top between Stannis and the Boltons, why not wait in the Vale until one of them wins and, voila. Send her to the winner and he achieves the same without putting her in danger from the Boltons or the inevitable battle. That doesn't require a 'smart' character. A character of average intelligence could work that out. But everyone in-show ignores it because BatFinger is meant to be seen as an intelligent character.

And the bolded would have more weight if the show didn't insert it's own pointless filler all the time. Grissandei? Craster's Keep? Brienne the Hulk fighting Knights of the Vale? Pretty much every brothel scene ever shown in the show? Ramsey and Myranda?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the best thing about this episode was the exclusion of Arya's storyline, which is truly boring as a Latin lesson this season. They should have skipped her altogether like Bran, and Sansa as well.


OTOH I was actually surprised that I was missing Cersei and Marg's catfighting. Not much, I guarantee, but it is something.



Otherwise it was shades of boring, at least the Dany controversy spiced it up somewhat. I guess Show Dany got into the pissed off mode sooner than Book Dany, which I don't entirely blame her for because Meereen stands on its head. I expect that Hizdahr will be the Harpy, so at least he gets some sweet comeuppeance sweating in terror by Dany's side, heh. I mean, it's got to be Hizdahr, hasn't it? The only other Meereenese character that stands out is the prostitute at the attacks, but it cannot be her unless


a] it's an important noblewoman who pretends she's a common whore... I know that D&D came up with Talisa, but this would likely be overkill even for them,


or b] she's just a prostitute who has enjoyed to be a fuckdoll without any right so much, she fights to become a sex slave again.



Although going by what D&D have been doing to Sansa, they may thing that women who are utterly at mercy of sadists and monsters feel empowered, so who knows. *shrugs*


Edited by lojzelote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon and Dany are getting leadership parallels, they also get the 'Do it your way' speech. I'm wondering what the end point to that is, they both with end this year in failure with the people they are meant to lead turning on them. Maybe its setting them up as opposites in how they deal with these things? As we've seen Dany is going off the deep end a bit but Jons failures aren't as spectacular. Need to think about that some more.

Jon has not really had any failures on the show, and he is not nearly as conflicted as he was in the books. Take Hardhome, that's not even Jon's idea at this point, it's Tormunds, and Tormund is makinig him go.

Mances Baby and Jon was removed, and so is what he did to Gilly. Jon not going to Hardhome was removed, Jon sending out the rangers has been removed, Jon's conflict with Marsh has been removed, Jon taking Karstark prisoner has been removed, Hardhome two is clearly not going to be part of the story, Cotter Pykes warning has been removed, he isn't seizing ships in the narrow sea, no Braavosi Banker, the food supply is not a big deal, he is not making the Wildlings work for him. His entire morality vs. practicality theme was removed, save for Hardhome which he is being forced into by Tormund. Also the Sam/ Aemon arc has been removed, Jon wanting the tunnel left open became Jon wanting the tunnel sealed, Jon and Quen was removed, I doubt we get a pink letter. Even Martin has said in the books Jon was making mistakes, which of course 16/17 year old young LC iss going to do. But pretty much his entire Dance arc is being replaced with him going to Hardhome and Olly.

As for the parallels they are pretty heavy handed in the book as well. What they did to Dany last episode was totaly garbage and not book related. It did not really make much sense and what bothered me most is that after the Dragon pit scene the writer tried to justify it. Listen to her talk with Missy both of them are pretty whatever about that moment. Yes the slavers are bad, as bad as it gets, thought they are not really getting into them. But Hiz is a sympathetic character here, Hiz is a total scum bag in the books. Poor guy is being forced to marry Dany where in the books it was just the opposite. They don't gie any build up for the dragon pit or for his they just do it.

I would be careful when thinking about what these writers will do, because if it looks good on screen and has shock value they will do it. They also are doing the same thing to Jon as they did to Robb. Well they are doing it to most characters, removing the grey, removing a majority of the conflict, Tyrion is basically an alcholic, that's his great conflict as the viewers will see it.

Tyrion will end up saving Dany from herself on the show, you watch. Because as the show made sure to toss in there, Dany does not have any family, no one to advise her, protect her, tell her what to do. Because you know a woman needs a man for that. Unless she is a warror on the show, then they become more and more, just hit shit to solve your problems because sword fights look good.

In my opinion the characters are becoming more and more one demensional on the show, and that it butchery for a series based off of the grey of humanity.

As for the parallels Ned Stark already told you, they are as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both their hearts she needs him as he needs her.

Aemon basically said it last episode, that is his entire scene with Jon, Dany needs help, and so does Jon. The scene is not about Jon and Aemon it's about the Targaryens, they are both alone and they both need help. In fact in the books if you remember when Dany is getting ready to marry Hiz she says it clear as day as well, she can't do it alone. In Dance both Dany and Jon isolate themselves from people, Dany feels alone and Jon feels like he can no longer have friends because of his position and starts avoiding his friends. They have also skipped that aspect of Jon's story, and Dany is super tight with Daario now, like in the books she does not take his advice, she tends to launch him when he gets out of line, and he only seems intrested in her power in the books.

I can't really explain the changes on the show, sometimes they feel really likewriting and production was rushed and they seem to lack a lot of logic and depth that the books have. One of Martins primary writing themes is it has to make sense, he has said that, good or bad the choices have to make sense. The show is getting more and more random.

Like on the show, why would Dragonglass kill a Wight? I don't know. Well I know try asking your fucking red wizard the questions about magic. I know I think I will take Shireen to war because outside of Jon who I want to adopt, Sam who I like, and Thorne 2.0, the wall is a dangerous place and I don't trust the men there. Right because taking a child to war in the north when the snows are coming and going against the insane Boltons seems like a safe idea? He has like 5,000 - 10,000 men on the show, the wall has less than a hundred men at 3 castles, like he can't leave them and like 50 men. Hell castle Black has like 30 - 40 people at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

because there have been no mentions about an invasion by other cities ..

i dont know whats the point if he his going to kill dany he could have done that plenty times when they are alone and if he is not turning to kill dany when there is no one left to protect her in the pit then i dont know when he will turn ..

all you do is pick a scene which was used to show unsullied cant really be best at finding the harpies and IMO darrio's line about finding the harpy was simply him bragging about how second sons are better than unsullied

So we believe that this: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Second_Siege_of_Meereen

Is completely cut? If he is destabilising Meereen on purpose after being paid off during his negotiations to quell rebellion why would he show his hand until victory was assured. As it is, we see Sons of the Harpy flood an arena. Daario is show Ben Plumm?

A scene where Daario, the leader of the Second Sons, describes the Second Sons doing exactly what the Sons of the Harpy do before they do it. Attacking people in alley ways, blending in to the people around them, getting to know average folk in bars and brothels. And oh look, here is a prostitute helping the Sons of the Harpy to attack unsullied down an alley!

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something I've been wondering about:

In DWD, It seems "winter" is coming from Winterfell. I am thinking this has something to do with the fact there is not a Stark in Winterfell. Now that Sansa is in WF, how does that affect the idea "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell"

I'm guessing the show will just brush over this. But it has really been bugging me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Dany is going to rape Hizdahr? I mean, he wasn't given a choice. And I know that the show won't portray it that way, but it will be rape. Also, the show is actually making me root for Hizdahr. I mean, Dany comes into the city and: kills his father, refuses to allow his father to be buried until he begs her, arrests him and kills someone he knows without trial or evidence of guilt, and then forces him to marry her. Not going to lie, I kind of hope he sticks a knife into her.

They do seem to be going out of their way to make Dany seem heavy-handed, but I think we'll see a scene with Dany and Hiz that makes it more even with them or he will come to see the advantages of the match. The way she talked about being wrong and him being right about the pits seemed to me like an attempt to treat him with respect and like an equal (sorta). I don't think we got to see enough of his reaction to know whether he's relieved, upset, or excited about the marriage, so I'll hold off on labeling it as rape for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we believe that this: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Second_Siege_of_Meereen

Is completely cut? If he is destabilising Meereen on purpose after being paid off during his negotiations to quell rebellion why would he show his hand until victory was assured. As it is, we see Sons of the Harpy flood an arena. Daario is show Ben Plumm?

A scene where Daario, the leader of the Second Sons, describes the Second Sons doing exactly what the Sons of the Harpy do before they do it. Attacking people in alley ways, blending in to the people around them, getting to know average folk in bars and brothels. And oh look, here is a prostitute helping the Sons of the Harpy to attack unsullied down an alley!

yes it is cut ..what more proof we need ..we are halfway through the season and it looks like meereen will be no show for next episode which means only four episodes left and one will cover the pit ..ser barristan is dead ..we never hear about anything from other citiesw like yunkai ,astopr,and not even in volantis ..tyrion and jorah is with dany ..dont you think by now they would have mentioned about the coming army ..and not to forget they totaly butchered the marriage proposal scene this episode..

what we see is sons coming into rena and kill the unsullied and sorround dany, missandei,tyrion,jorah and darrio..and we also see darrio cutting the Sons of the harpies down in the pit

except that scene you are mentioning is where the Secons Sons get murdered by harpies because of what they did basck in episode 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BatFinger's plan is stupid. It puts Sansa in an extraordinary amount of danger that is unnecessary. If BatFinger wants Sansa to ally with whoever comes out on top between Stannis and the Boltons, why not wait in the Vale until one of them wins and, voila. Send her to the winner and he achieves the same without putting her in danger from the Boltons or the inevitable battle. That doesn't require a 'smart' character. A character of average intelligence could work that out. But everyone in-show ignores it because BatFinger is meant to be seen as an intelligent character.

And the bolded would have more weight if the show didn't insert it's own pointless filler all the time. Grissandei? Craster's Keep? Brienne the Hulk fighting Knights of the Vale? Pretty much every brothel scene ever shown in the show? Ramsey and Myranda?

You are labouring under the mistaken notion that LF is meant to be smart.

During the cold war, the brothers Dulles decided that the fairly moderate, democratically elected government of Iran wasn't compliant enough. So they staged a coup replacing it with a dictator who slaughtered about 10,000 people maintaining his grip on power. 27 years later, the dictator was kicked out by crowds chanting 'Death to America'.

I have seen the intelligence services do much stupider than the Sansa gambit which makes perfect sense if LF is not particularly bothered by her chances of survival.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They do seem to be going out of their way to make Dany seem heavy-handed, but I think we'll see a scene with Dany and Hiz that makes it more even with them or he will come to see the advantages of the match. The way she talked about being wrong and him being right about the pits seemed to me like an attempt to treat him with respect and like an equal (sorta). I don't think we got to see enough of his reaction to know whether he's relieved, upset, or excited about the marriage, so I'll hold off on labeling it as rape for now.

The path to becoming a new Joffrey! :)

I felt bad for Hizdar too. Its not the gender thing you know. I fuckin hate Ramsey too. But People just tend to praise praise Dany's "torture" whatever the fuck she does (just because she is a woman)

I was wrong, is not a frikkin apology if it is followed by (haha) I am going to force you to marry me. I'll make you dance for me (haha).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes it is cut ..what more proof we need ..we are halfway through the season and it looks like meereen will be no show for next episode which means only four episodes left and one will cover the pit ..ser barristan is dead ..we never hear about anything from other citiesw like yunkai ,astopr,and not even in volantis ..tyrion and jorah is with dany ..dont you think by now they would have mentioned about the coming army ..and not to forget they totaly butchered the marriage proposal scene this episode..

what we see is sons coming into rena and kill the unsullied and sorround dany, missandei,tyrion,jorah and darrio..and we also see darrio cutting the Sons of the harpies down in the pit

except that scene you are mentioning is where the Secons Sons get murdered by harpies because of what they did basck in episode 2

Hizdahr and Daario start the season returning from a city that overthrew the people Dany had left in charge. Their demand was only to open the fighting pits which seems too little for peace.

The scene I am mentioning is Daario and Grey Worm looking or Sons of the Harpy behind a Wall that Daario magically finds because he 'knows fear'!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this was sort of the point. Barristan is gone and Missendei is a yes woman. Hizdahr spoke out against her and he seems to be on a leash now. Unless he's a great actor I don't think he is the Harpy. I think Daario may be the Harpy in the show. But the Valar Morghulis in the dragon pit makes me wonder if he could be the one to put a hit on the dragons. Dany has to learn that she can't just give in to get love from her people. Perhaps their adoration is not that important in a decision maker, its their respect. Dany is learning that the Queen fantasy she had (and the same one Sansa had in the book) is not real. She can't be unanimously loved. She is not a saviour. And Tyrion will be the punctuation mark in that plot when he turns up with his acerbic sarcasm and sees the mess.

I'm still leaning towards the (yet) unnamed prostitute that was on scene when the first Unsullied was murdered.

Harpies are by definition, female and I think that the "Sons" of the Harpy are following her. She might be one of the Graces, if D & D ever decide to pursue that avenue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×