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[Spoilers] EP505 Discussion

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Don't be silly, and stop assuming things about me. I've loved... LOVED every season so far. This season has been idiotic. It frequently disregards, as I said, logic, continuity, and the need to make sense. I merely used 1 example illustratively. There are a numerous examples this season.

P.S. Christopher Nolan is a garbage director. He gives no shit about his movies making sense. How fucking hilarious that you should pick him as an example.

So Game of Thrones Season 5 is idiotic.... And Nolan is a bad director? What else do you hate that is awesome?

Give me some examples of what doesn't make sense this season.... I bet I can show you they do.

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You don't think there is anybody in mereen who is capable of sending a letter like that? The leaders of the country are in peril. It makes sense for at least a few to try to get the word out....

You used bad example. Even if something doesn't make perfect sense.... It's a STORY. Does Christopher Nolan's Batman make perfect sense just because it is more realistic? How did Batman get on top of a building like that? Or how does he beat up 10 guys wearing a rubber suit.

At some point with stories like this, you have to sit back and enjoy it. I could take any season of any show on television and find holes to poke through the story.

It's just too much from some fans who can never be happy.

All this is.... Is backlash from fans who are made the show is finishing first.

Yeah, it couldn't be because people have legitimate criticisms of the show, could it? *rolls eyes*

Ugh. The show has flaws. Why are certain show-watchers incapable of admitting that? The books have flaws, so does the show. Here's a brief list:

- An enormous amount of brothel scenes that add nothing to the show and are just there to show some tits

- Lack of logic and consistency within the show's universe. Maybe you don't expect such things from TV, but some of us do

- Changing characters significantly, but still having the same events happen as in the books. Varys' motivations make no sense without the inclusion of Aegon. For some reason, some of us find it baffling that a man who cares so much for stability would try to set up a Dothraki invasion (because that's how you make a secure Westeros yeah!)

- Piss-poor military writing

- They streamlined three characters to make Loras Tyrell and yet he has less character than any one of them

- They add pointless filler, like Grissandei and Craster's Keep. Which makes it hard to take seriously the claim that they're streamlining

Those are just off the top of my head.

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I'll limit it to season 5. And ask you to explain things one by one.



Why couldn't Brienne just leave that inn calmly? Explain to me how it makes sense for her to make a Terminator exit, and why she had to kill those vale knights?


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The show has flaws. Why are certain show-watchers incapable of admitting that? The books have flaws, so does the show.

Yes, they both have flaws. And, they both have good points.

But, at this stage, it seems more likely the show will finish telling the story than the books.

We can debate whether plot point A in the show is better and more direct than plot point B in the books, or that dialogue C in the books is better written than dialogue D in the show but all of it is for naught if the story doesn't resolve.

Also, the show has more fans.

You can debate the book is better than the show and that show fans are unsullied, uncultured, beneath the true experience, or whatever - but none of this changes that the books would never have become half as popular as they are if it wasn't for the show.

Edited by ummester

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I'll limit it to season 5. And ask you to explain things one by one.

Why couldn't Brienne just leave that inn calmly? Explain to me how it makes sense for her to make a Terminator exit, and why she had to kill those vale knights?

Because she couldn't know if those knights weren't going to seize her

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§ I enjoyed the acting between Ramsay and Roose. It is a story that Roose told Theon in the books but it was good to see them interact. Roose is untrustworthy and Ramsay knows this, with Walda Frey (Roose’s wife) pregnant possibly with a boy it puts Ramsay at risk for succession as Warden of the North. Roose is sending Ramsay out to face Stannis while keeping his best troops back.


§ The Brienne and Pod scene was boring. I don’t think they are working well together on screen or the writers/directors want their tension to be shown.


§ Stannis and Jon scenes were warm, but WHO IS AT THE WALL? Jon is going to Hardhome to save The Wildlings, and Jon has turned the Night’s Watch against him by bringing Wildlings south of the wall after the Wildlings butchered folks south of the wall. Jon is making a huge mistake here, turning his allies against him.


§ Stannis, Melisandre, Davos are all headed off to fight The Boltons . . . . who will win? Will Brienne get revenge? Who knows?


§ The Sansa, “I’m in Danger scenes” are awful . . . tired of it . . . that is so Season 2 . ..


§ Dany feeding the Slave Master to the dragons was cool. But her marriage to Hizdahr makes no sense. He’s took weak of a person to be her spouse. She likes strong violent men like Drogo and Daario.


§ I loved seeing the ruins of Old Valyria .. .. it was great to see the stone men and see that Jorah rescued Tyrion .. . a great civilization gone in a moment, not even the dragons were spared.


§ Reek, Reek, rhymes with sneak . . . .

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Yes, they both have flaws. And, they both have good points.

But, at this stage, it seems more likely the show will finish telling the story than the books.

We can debate whether plot point A in the show is better and more direct than plot point B in the books, or that dialogue C in the books is better written than dialogue D in the show but all of it is for naught if the story doesn't resolve.

Also, the show has more fans.

You can debate the book is better than the show and that show fans are unsullied, uncultured, beneath the true experience, or whatever - but none of this changes that the books would never have become half as popular as they are if it wasn't for the show.

Look, I'm grateful for the show. It brought me, and many others, to the books. It also was, for a good while, real quality TV. And I love the show. And that's why I criticise it. Because it can be so much better.

And the show finishing first means diddly squat.

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And the show finishing first means diddly squat.

You missed what I meant - I think the show has become popular enough to definitely finish. It will resolve. I'm not sure that the books will finish. I personally don't have much faith in this saga concluding on page, so, given that I'm not a gambler, I'll go with what I consider the safer bet.

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You missed what I meant - I think the show has become popular enough to definitely finish. It will resolve. I'm not sure that the books will finish. I personally don't have much faith in this saga concluding on page, so, given that I'm not a gambler, I'll go with what I consider the safer bet.

Well, admittedly, I would rather have the show's end than no end at all. But I am in no way convinced that the show's end is going to be better than the books'. I just don't think that D&D are good writers. And I don't think that this season has proven better, thus far, than the source material.

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Well, admittedly, I would rather have the show's end than no end at all. But I am in no way convinced that the show's end is going to be better than the books'. I just don't think that D&D are good writers. And I don't think that this season has proven better, thus far, than the source material.

I think that this is a low point in the source material and a low point in the show. I can't judge which is worse until this season has finished.

I think both GRRM and D&D are better story tellers than Christopher Nolan or Damien Lindeloff :D I think if GRRM is a good writer, he would write. I don't think being a good story teller and a good writer are the same thing.

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So Game of Thrones Season 5 is idiotic.... And Nolan is a bad director? What else do you hate that is awesome?

Give me some examples of what doesn't make sense this season.... I bet I can show you they do.

Aemon saying Dany is under siege makes no fucking sense at all. What siege? There is no siege in the show!

Cersei prophecy mentioning only 3 kids when in the show she gave birth to four!

Man hiding inside walls in Meereen. Please what logic can there possibly be in there? Why he fuck would anybody hide in walls with masks and daggers?

How is Jaime planing not to start war once he kidnaps Myrcella and breaks the deal with Martels?

And all this is just for starters.

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Part 2:



Why doesn't Cersei kills Jaime for releasing Tyrion? Isn't Tyrion her biggest threat and to her children, and Jaime just released him? And she's OK with it?



Littlefinger's plan is like the biggest crap I've seen on TV for a while. He either doesn't know who Ramsay is or he deliberately puts Sansa in hands of sadistic psychopaths. Neither makes any sense at all.



Why Bronn accept to go with Jaime on suicide mission when he didn't want to fight Gregor for Tyrion because he avoids suicide missions?



Sand Snakes find out Jaime is doing their job for them and he's going to start the war but they still stay with their original plan. Why is that so? Are they that stupid?



Why Sam pushes Jon to accept Stannis's offer and only seconds later proposes Jon for the Lord Commander? Is Sam maybe trying to make Jon become both Lord of Winterfell and Lord Commander?



Man, this show is so stupid I can do this till the end of days.


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Aemon saying Dany is under siege makes no fucking sense at all. What siege? There is no siege in the show!

That's what the letter said. The letter is wrong, which isn't surprising considering the distances involved

Cersei prophecy mentioning only 3 kids when in the show she gave birth to four!

Due the high infant mortality rate, Westerosi only count children if they survive past their first year or something. Notice how it's "nameday" instead of "birthday"

Man hiding inside walls in Meereen. Please what logic can there possibly be in there? Why he fuck would anybody hide in walls with masks and daggers?

So he isn't found. Daario didn't find him because he's able to feel fear. He found him because he tortured an associate of that man, who told them everything

How is Jaime planing not to start war once he kidnaps Myrcella and breaks the deal with Martels?

That's a diplomatic incident, which can be smoothed over if both the Iron Throne and Doran Martell feel inclined to do so. Landing a 10,000 men party could only mean war - and also Myrcella's preemptive execution, as the Lannisters have no Martell hostage

And all this is just for starters.

Part 2:

Why doesn't Cersei kills Jaime for releasing Tyrion? Isn't Tyrion her biggest threat and to her children, and Jaime just released him? And she's OK with it?

Because she loves Jaime

Littlefinger's plan is like the biggest crap I've seen on TV for a while. He either doesn't know who Ramsay is or he deliberately puts Sansa in hands of sadistic psychopaths. Neither makes any sense at all.

He may have been unable to find Ramsay's resume at Linkedin and grossly underestimates the Boltons, believing them to be your average Westerosi scheemer Lord

Why Bronn accept to go with Jaime on suicide mission when he didn't want to fight Gregor for Tyrion because he avoids suicide missions?

Who said anything of suicide? And why wouldn't Bronn betray Jaime if the odds turn against him?

Sand Snakes find out Jaime is doing their job for them and he's going to start the war but they still stay with their original plan. Why is that so? Are they that stupid?

Well, they are stupid, but if they want a war, they better start it while Myrcella is still their hostage

Why Sam pushes Jon to accept Stannis's offer and only seconds later proposes Jon for the Lord Commander? Is Sam maybe trying to make Jon become both Lord of Winterfell and Lord Commander?

Because Jon has already rejected becoming the Lord of Winterfell?

Man, this show is so stupid I can do this till the end of days.

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Aemon saying Dany is under siege makes no fucking sense at all. What siege? There is no siege in the show!

He could have been talking figuratively, like Dany is under siege emotionally.

Cersei prophecy mentioning only 3 kids when in the show she gave birth to four!

Yes, she gave birth to 4 but a person that dies as an infant arguably never becomes a child.

Man hiding inside walls in Meereen. Please what logic can there possibly be in there? Why he fuck would anybody hide in walls with masks and daggers?

The scene was trying to conceptualize how Daario and Greyworm operate.The guy in the wall obviously got in a different way but it was not important to the main drive of the scene.

Some of the most remembered things in cinematic history don't make sense when you think about them logistically - they are more about conveying an idea with visuals. This is where there is a fundamental difference between the book and show, that people need to get their heads around to appreciate how the ame story can be told different ways in different mediums.

How is Jaime planing not to start war once he kidnaps Myrcella and breaks the deal with Martels?

We'll have to wait and see - but I have a feeling Jamie and Doran will become buddies.

Why doesn't Cersei kills Jaime for releasing Tyrion? Isn't Tyrion her biggest threat and to her children, and Jaime just released him? And she's OK with it?

Because she loves him and she is often an unstable, emotionally driven bitch that wants everything her way.

Littlefinger's plan is like the biggest crap I've seen on TV for a while. He either doesn't know who Ramsay is or he deliberately puts Sansa in hands of sadistic psychopaths. Neither makes any sense at all.

Another thing we have to wait and see. Though we have to be clear that hating on LFs plan just because it endangers Sansa is not the same as hating on LFs plan because it doesn't make sense. And, we also have to try and empathize with a mindset that does not sympathize with other people at all to really understand how LF thinks.

Why Bronn accept to go with Jaime on suicide mission when he didn't want to fight Gregor for Tyrion because he avoids suicide missions?

because fan-service - and fans pay D&Ds bills.

Sand Snakes find out Jaime is doing their job for them and he's going to start the war but they still stay with their original plan. Why is that so? Are they that stupid?

It seems that way so far - I'm not sure why the Sandsnakes are part of this season, or that they need to be.

Why Sam pushes Jon to accept Stannis's offer and only seconds later proposes Jon for the Lord Commander? Is Sam maybe trying to make Jon become both Lord of Winterfell and Lord Commander?

Obviously it all went a little too fast for you - scene did a flyby, because you are used to the snails pace of GRRMs writing :D

Sam decided to make Jon Lord Commander after he knew Jon was going to reject being Lord of Winterfell. Sam saw that Jon really cared about the Nights Watch, which gave him the courage to stand up and vouch for Jon.

I thought the Lord Commander election was a perfect way to cut down and speed up something that moved a bit slowly in book.

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ha ha Pies are coming, we almost dupped each other :D Some slightly different takes, but same vibe overall.


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Are you for real? Did you even think about what you answer?



1) Why would someone send letters from distance with false information? Why would anybody put something like that in letters?



2) You made that up because nobody said anything about some kids counted and some not. I don't know where people get this crazy ideas?



3) But so what if someone sees him outside of wall? So what if Daario and Grey Worm see him in the room? As long as he hides daggers and masks they have nothing on him.





4) What the fuck are you talking about? What diplomatic incident? There is no diplomacy in Westeros by the way but never mind because breaking such a deal as Robb knows very well always means war in feudal systems.


5) Cersei loves Jaime more than she loves herself and their children? Really?


6) Littelfinger knows that Boltons are the most despised family in The North as he says to Sansa but he doesn't know about Ramsay? That sounds logical to you?


7) Three hands against entire region? Yes, definitely no suicide, in Disneyland at least.


8) But why don't they kill Jaime while he is no his mission? That is the perfect cause for war from their perspective and nobody can say word against them, not even Doran.


9) So instead persuading Jon to accept Winterfell Sam decides to persuade entire Nights Watch to elect Jon? Does that sound logical to you?


Try harder.

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ha ha Pies are coming, we almost dupped each other :D Some slightly different takes, but same vibe overall.

Well I thought you are the champion of mental gymnastics around here but you obviously have good company.

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I think that this is a low point in the source material and a low point in the show. I can't judge which is worse until this season has finished.

I think both GRRM and D&D are better story tellers than Christopher Nolan or Damien Lindeloff :D I think if GRRM is a good writer, he would write. I don't think being a good story teller and a good writer are the same thing.

Exactly. GRRM has given us 2000 pages of a meandering mess. He has unfortunately reached that point that a lot of successful writers of today arrive at after obtaining success. They fall into a mindset of believing that everything they think up is somehow gold. They lose their story, because they are just babbling with absolutely no focus.

Unfortunately readers invest a lot of time reading all of this and just cannot believe they have spent all of this time and effort on meaningless drivel, so they come up with all sorts of theories making all of it important. The truth is that GRRM laid out his story to D&D, so I assume they know where they are going and have left the filler out. If the show filmed everything George wrote, then the show would be thousands of hours long and boring as hell.

Personally I blame the publishing company for a lot of writers derailing. A lot of writers have this problem of believing that everything they write is wonderful. The publishing companies are allowing writers to get away with poor writing. A good editor should have pushed George to be clearer, concise and to get to where he was going without all of the drivel. Creating character after character is not difficult. Anyone can do that. I know George claims to have an editor, but she must be a complete toadie to have allowed him to publish the last 2 books.

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GRRM's last two books needed a good edit.



But, that doesn't absolve the show from getting rid of his filler and inserting their own filler; filler is filler, plot holes are plot holes.



And the show's poor pacing this season, continuity issues and so forth are solely on the show.

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Are you for real? Did you even think about what you answer?

1) Why would someone send letters from distance with false information? Why would anybody put something like that in letters?

Because that person has false information. Have you ever played that children game in which one child whispers something to another, the second kid whispers what he heard to a third kid and so on, and when the last kid says what he heard aloud, it's completely different to what was told in the first place? Now imagine that in a medieval setting and without access to Tywin's email account. Information gets distorted. That they get news of Daenerys at the Wall at all is what pushes disbelief, not that the information is innacurate.

2) You made that up because nobody said anything about some kids counted and some not. I don't know where people get this crazy ideas?

Of course I totally made that up

3) But so what if someone sees him outside of wall? So what if Daario and Grey Worm see him in the room? As long as he hides daggers and masks they have nothing on him.

Yes, they have the confession of some tortured guy. And he has every reason to think they'll torture him in turn. Due process, fair trial and human rights hardly exist in modern anti insurgency warfare, let alone in a medieval setting.

4) What the fuck are you talking about? What diplomatic incident? There is no diplomacy in Westeros by the way but never mind because breaking such a deal as Robb knows very well always means war in feudal systems.

None said anything about breaking the deal. They are just returning Myrcella back home. They can still marry at a later date. Doran Martell might be angry and might rebell - but he's not being forced to do so. If Myrcella vanishes without anyone initially knowing what happened and the Iron Throne gives him an excuse for this that allows him to save face in front of his vassals, the rescue/abduction doesn't have to lead to war. And since Doran Martell doesn't want war, Ellaria knows that allowing Jaime to seize Myrcella will not trigger a war.

5) Cersei loves Jaime more than she loves herself and their children? Really?

More? No, I don't think so. But she loves him enough to refrain from having him executed. I don't think this is a big deal. Jaime's words to Cersei on that first scene are somewhat out of character, but someone had to say those things.

6) Littelfinger knows that Boltons are the most despised family in The North as he says to Sansa but he doesn't know about Ramsay? That sounds logical to you?

Absolutely. Whenever Tywin's email account isn't involved, communications remain incredibly poor. Let me ask you something: do you think Ned Stark would have allowed Ramsay to live if he had know what he was? He wouldn't have. And if Ned didn't know about Ramsay's hobbies, how would Littlefinger know? This isn't the modern age. Ramsay isn't going to be publishing his latest woman hunting on Facebook. Do you even know what your neighbour down two blocks from your house does as a hobby? How do you think someone will know how cruel the bastard son of a Lord from the other end of the country is with medieval communication technology?

7) Three hands against entire region? Yes, definitely no suicide, in Disneyland at least.

And who said anything about an entire legion? Infiltrate the Water Gardens as thieves in the night, rescue Myrcella, get out. Dangerous? Sure. But they aren't marching into a set piece battle.

8) But why don't they kill Jaime while he is no his mission? That is the perfect cause for war from their perspective and nobody can say word against them, not even Doran.

Do you think they won't try to kill Jaime if they find him?

9) So instead persuading Jon to accept Winterfell Sam decides to persuade entire Nights Watch to elect Jon? Does that sound logical to you?

Jon doesn't want to become Lord of Winterfell. Sams hears his reasons and, knowing him, knows there is no point to argue. So, instead, he campaigns for him as Lord Commander. That's perfectly logical.

Try harder.

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