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[Spoilers] EP505 Discussion

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I'll limit it to season 5. And ask you to explain things one by one.

Why couldn't Brienne just leave that inn calmly? Explain to me how it makes sense for her to make a Terminator exit, and why she had to kill those vale knights?

Look at her past experience when she was taken captive. It didn't end too well.

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Aemon saying Dany is under siege makes no fucking sense at all. What siege? There is no siege in the show!

Cersei prophecy mentioning only 3 kids when in the show she gave birth to four!

Man hiding inside walls in Meereen. Please what logic can there possibly be in there? Why he fuck would anybody hide in walls with masks and daggers?

How is Jaime planing not to start war once he kidnaps Myrcella and breaks the deal with Martels?

And all this is just for starters.

1) Sam read ".... forces rise against her from within and without." That makes it sound like she is under siege to Aemon. Not to hard to understand.

2) She had 3 children make it out of childhood. My great grandparents had 15 children. But when my grandmother described it, she said they had 13 children and two who didn't make it out of infancy. Now, was my grandmother a liar? No, it is just the way people talk about it.

3) So in a place where there are few places to hide, going behind a wall is a bad thing? That is beyond nitpicking.

4) How do you know Jamie's full plan? Perhaps he plans to broker a deal. The entire story line isn't even complete. How can this be a complaint yet?

If these are the best 4 you could think of, they are very petty and not even big plot points. Sad really.

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1) Sam read ".... forces rise against her from within and without." That makes it sound like she is under siege to Aemon. Not to hard to understand.

2) She had 3 children make it out of childhood. My great grandparents had 15 children. But when my grandmother described it, she said they had 13 children and two who didn't make it out of infancy. Now, was my grandmother a liar? No, it is just the way people talk about it.

3) So in a place where there are few places to hide, going behind a wall is a bad thing? That is beyond nitpicking.

4) How do you know Jamie's full plan? Perhaps he plans to broker a deal. The entire story line isn't even complete. How can this be a complaint yet?

If these are the best 4 you could think of, they are very petty and not even big plot points. Sad really.

It's a prophecy. Will the king and I have children? Answer: NO. You will have 3, he will have 20.

But, the answer wasn't no, it was (1) black haired beauty that died, thus, making the entire prophecy suspect, why remember it when it's already years ago been proven wrong?

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Will we see the Freys re-enter the equation now that Fat Walda is prego with a Roose baby? They are the only force in Westeros that have been known for their Littlefinger-like mobility around Westeros, they should want to protect their future claim to the North. Roose has some impeccable timing with the prego announcement. I think with winter coming behind Stannis and the Frey armies to support the Boltons, the odds will quickly sway to the Boltons as Stannis disclosed in this episode, "Everyday we wait the odds stack in the Boltons favor..." or something like that. The setup for the demise of the Mannis will be built up so much so that everyone will be pleasantly surprised when Stannis comes out on top.


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GRRM's last two books needed a good edit.

But, that doesn't absolve the show from getting rid of his filler and inserting their own filler; filler is filler, plot holes are plot holes.

And the show's poor pacing this season, continuity issues and so forth are solely on the show.

Yea, so it's a case of shit in, shit out :)

As I posted earlier, if GRRM had written 2 more ASoS style novels to finish it, rather than AFFC & ADWD, everyone would be happy. Book fans would be happy, getting to read it all first. D&D would be happy, because they would have great blueprints to follow. And show fans would be happy because Seasons 5. 6 & 7 could be based on a source as good as seasons 1,2,3 &4. TWoW and ADoS may be the best fantasy books ever, as good as ASoS or better - but there will always be the issue of too little, too late as far as the whole GoTs phenomenon is concerned.

I don't think its entirely fair to blame D&D for dropping a ball that wasn't passed to them correctly.

Yeah in D&D's race to make their "own" brilliant story they've created many plotholes in a series otherwise devoid of it.

What do you mean by race?

D&D have a schedule - they have to deliver every year. It's HBO franchised cashcow, that ain't going to wait for anyone.

GoTs is bigger than D&D, bigger than ASoIaF, bigger even than HBO - it's become a massive train that's rolling forwards, keeping t-shirt factory workers employed and a percentage of you-tube interesting. No one involved in GoTs really has the luxury to say it will be done when its done anymore, it's gone beyond that. Everyone involved should be working to contain the beast it is and reign it in for a satisfying conclusion, without letting it get out of control or turn to shit.

Edited by ummester

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1) You can all be like "the last 2 books suck" all you want, that doesn't make it true. The fact is, some of you seem to have a hard time comprehending simple forum posts, so i think you might enjoy yourselves more by limiting your reading material to Cosmo, Esquire and the like.



2) All we need to do to discern that D&D view the viewers as morons is to point out things like having Sansa light a Bat Signal to Brienne. It's like, they draw their "original", "bold" ideas from an Elementary School class.


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You missed what I meant - I think the show has become popular enough to definitely finish. It will resolve. I'm not sure that the books will finish. I personally don't have much faith in this saga concluding on page, so, given that I'm not a gambler, I'll go with what I consider the safer bet.

i very much doubt the books will finish. There will be at least 2 books after TWOW, if we at all realistic [ i don't believe for one second GRRM will be able to get all the ducks in a row for ADOS in the upcoming book], so we are 10 years away from completion in all likelihood...

So i too am grateful to the show for actually giving me the realistic prospect of a conclusion.

I have massive sympathy for GRRM; after all Tolkien had 4 decades to sort out the mythos behind LOTR while GRRM has been producing the last two books under an ever increasing glare of publicity. The underaging of the young characters and the meerenese knot have been almost insurmountable narrative issues to overcome [ ageing up was the single best decision made by D&D].

Regarding the adaptation by D&D, so many people here seem to want to make the perfect the enemy of the good- it betrays terrible insecurity of their ability to retain a personal imagination of the story.

Edited by God-Emperor of Yi Ti

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1) You can all be like "the last 2 books suck" all you want, that doesn't make it true. The fact is, some of you seem to have a hard time comprehending simple forum posts, so i think you might enjoy yourselves more by limiting your reading material to Cosmo, Esquire and the like.

2) All we need to do to discern that D&D view the viewers as morons is to point out things like having Sansa light a Bat Signal to Brienne. It's like, they draw their "original", "bold" ideas from an Elementary School class.

re 1 the trend in Amazon reviews is pretty unambiguous

GOT: 4.5/5

COK: 4.5/5

SOS: 4.6/5

FFC 3.8/5

DOD:3.9/5

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FFC 3.8/5

DOD:3.9/5

Bandwagon fallacy. People like ummester and Lady Lyanna would give them 1 each. D&D themselves, perhaps 2, by the looks of it. That tells us nothing.

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Bandwagon fallacy. People like ummester and Lady Lyanna would give them 1 each. D&D themselves, perhaps 2, by the looks of it. That tells us nothing.

That's crap, I like AFFC more than ADwD & ACoK. I would rate them as per my own judgement, which would be something like

AGoT 4/5

ACoK 3/5

ASoS 4/5

AFFC 4/5

ADwD 2/5

But, I know AFFC would make poor television - I was aware as I was reading it, thinking, how the fuck will they do this in Season 5? Lena Headly wont let the character she has created be reverted to some kind of evil Queen/dumb CEO caricature, as much as it made me laugh reading it, book Cersie does not have the humanity of show Cersie. And what are they going to do with Jamie, have him saying. "But she fucked someone else" to every person he met?

I would have liked the war torn Weteros vistas and the Edmure and Blackfish stuff to be in Season 5 on tele - perhaps it will make it into Season 6?

ADwD was the one I found worst, needlessly over convoluted. My favorite bit was the prologue, Bran's chapters and Mel's chapter - because it made me think, thank fuck GRRM hasn't forgotten his basic story altogether.

Just because I find the reasoning of most of you hard core book lovers narrow minded, doesn't mean I'm coming from a place where I see no quality in GRRMs books at all. And it doesn't mean I think the show is better in every respect.

Cersie is far better in show.

Tywin was better in show.

Tyrion is better in book, even though I hate the little fucker.

Dany is better in book, even though I don't like her much either.

Jon is like Sansa - kind of bland in both but at least Kit has finally become likable this Season.

Arya is better in book.

Sandor was better in book.

Brienne is likable but a stupid thug in both - don't forget her book introduction was pushing a boulder onto a boat like some kind of menopausal Donkey Kong.

Bran is far better in book.

Jamie is pretty good in both - although he did become whiny bitch in AFFC :D So I would say book Jamie was better but it looks like show Jamie is becoming better.

My favorite element, the Others and Lovecraftian mythology, is better in book, when it's there. Oh, and the Giants - my next favorite thing to the Others, far better in book. We need to hear their song in show, the show has portrayed them with some nobility, but not sympathetic enough.

Edited by ummester

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1) Sam read ".... forces rise against her from within and without." That makes it sound like she is under siege to Aemon. Not to hard to understand.



2) She had 3 children make it out of childhood. My great grandparents had 15 children. But when my grandmother described it, she said they had 13 children and two who didn't make it out of infancy. Now, was my grandmother a liar? No, it is just the way people talk about it.



3) So in a place where there are few places to hide, going behind a wall is a bad thing? That is beyond nitpicking.



4) How do you know Jamie's full plan? Perhaps he plans to broker a deal. The entire story line isn't even complete. How can this be a complaint yet?



If these are the best 4 you could think of, they are very petty and not even big plot points. Sad really.




What is really sad is this pathetic mental gymnastic you do in order to justify all the stupidity of the show. If show audience is like you, then D&D don't have to bother because whatever they put on screen you are going to love. They can revive Ned and have him rape some septas and youre going to be: OK, that's logical, people when are brought back from dead usually rape women, nothing strange about it. GRRM joked that D&D can bring aliens into his story if they want but I don't think it is joke for you and you probably wouldn't have anything against aliens from out of space invading Westeros. Just look your answers how absurd they are:



1) My question was about why would anybody write that forces are rising from outside. That was really not hard to understand. Saying everything is OK because Aemon heard it from the letter is pathetic really. Better to say you don't want to answer and admit you're defeated than to embarrass yourself with answer like that one.



2) So even your grandmother would write better scripts than D&D right? I mean she would say: "You will have one which won't make out of infancy and king will have 20 and you will have 3". That is much better than D&D, much better.



3) Now this is the most pathetic answer really. As first, how do you go inside wall? Tell me, I want to know. I always wanted to go inside wall but never made it. Where is door to inside wall? And even more important: WHY THE FUCK DOES HE HAS TO HIDE ANYWAY? WHY DOESN'T HE ONLY HIDES DAGGERS AND MASKS? WITHOUT DAGGERS AND MASKS THEY HAVE NOTHING ON HIM!!! SONS OF THE HARPY ARE ANONYMOUS, THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE MASKS, SO THEY CAN BE NOT SUSPICIOUS WITHOUT MASKS!!!



4) Wow, that's brilliant! Yes he obviously want to make a deal because why else would he bring sellsword Bronn with him? Why else would he go secretly to Dorne? Brilliant!



And yeah, they are definitely not big plot points. Just, you know, Dorne is like Jaime's main arc this season and that stupidity with man hiding inside walls was the main think in episode 2. LOL!!!


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The SotH-affiliated prostitute isn’t the Harpy – Mereen is too hierarchical a society for the leader of an upper class resistance movement to be literally working as a low-end prostitute (she was working as a prostitute long enough to have that Unsullied as a regular customer, we see her entertaining a client again in the bazaar). The prostitute is a low-level supporter of the movement.

chop

What makes you sure that the 'green whore' is actually a prostitute? we've seen her with an unsullied (so she knew they wouldn't have sex) and in the courtyard she didn't actually do anything with the guy.

Why would they even bother showing her- not only that but showing us she is a part of it- for two scenes if there's not something more to her?

She seems to be wearing green so i think she might be some sort of replacement for the green grace (who may be behind the attacks in the books)

There's also Yezzan who was announced in the big casting video last year at Comic Con and they have yet to actually show him on screen. I'm not sure why he was advertised as having a big role this season, i think he'll be in two episodes at the most.

EDIt: btw to add tot he discussion of adapting AFFC and ADWD...

It kind've pisses me off how people assume criticism of the show means that person hates the show. NO! it doesn't!

D&D have made some bad decisions already regarding character choices this season. And its not because we 'hate the show' its because some plots don't make sense and you can't keep the main plots of the book but change everything in between and expect it to have the same effect. eg Tyrion's escape.

Edited by igrewupinKL

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I have massive sympathy for GRRM; after all Tolkien had 4 decades to sort out the mythos behind LOTR while GRRM has been producing the last two books under an ever increasing glare of publicity. The underaging of the young characters and the meerenese knot have been almost insurmountable narrative issues to overcome [ ageing up was the single best decision made by D&D].

See, I kind of do and don't have sympathy.

GRRM signed up with D&D - his call. GRRM slowed down his writing pace - again, his call. GRRM put ages in in the first book - his worst call. GRRM can do a time jump in the novels, to age his characters up - which again would be his call.

GRRM made all of his own choices and has the power to fix all of his own problems. I sympathize that he may be in a bit of a bind, with added pressure from the show - but he can think and write his way out of it.

As for the Mereneese knot, that has always sounded like an excuse to me - or a dead give away that GRRM is a sensationally disorganized individual :D You are writing a huge fantasy saga and you don't have a spreadsheet with all the character ages and locations at given points in time? You don't have a map of the world with little markers showing where everyone is and knowing approximately how long it takes to move them around? Even scriptwriters do this kind of stuff to track where characters are in a haunted house or spaceship or whatever, as they are writing, so you think it would be a requirement of novels the size of ASoIaF.

Regarding the adaptation by D&D, so many people here seem to want to make the perfect the enemy of the good- it betrays terrible insecurity of their ability to retain a personal imagination of the story.

Totally agree.

I did post elsewhere how books create a stronger bond with a reader than a show can, because our imaginations work like that. But a personal interpretation is just that - personal.

The show is the combined interpretation of many artisans, including GRRM, D&D and all the actors, so surely it has to be more thorough than anything an individual can achieve by themselves.

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It kind've pisses me off how people assume criticism of the show means that person hates the show. NO! it doesn't!

D&D have made some bad decisions already regarding character choices this season. And its not because we 'hate the show' its because some plots don't make sense and you can't keep the main plots of the book but change everything in between and expect it to have the same effect. eg Tyrion's escape.

See above - is it because the genuinely don't make sense, or is it just because they don't align with how your imagination interpreted the book?

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D&D have a broad brush stoke version of the end, not a blow by blow of the next two books. Whatever they did with Sansa it would be their work entirely as they've already used up her book material at as slow a pace as they could have - it's not like they rushed Sansa.


Same goes for Jaime and Brienne. They are out of book material. If lady Stoneheart will appear it will be closer to the end as her end game will coincide with other end games.



If you have to make up material any how why not combine their stories with other stories, especially where these other stories don't have familiar characters. Having Jaime and Bronn in Dorne allows there to be some familiar faces involved in the new storyline. Plus it means that when the sand snakes kill someone it's not just another Red Shirt but more likely Bronn. This death will have meaning and impact.



As for treating the audience like morons, this is a silly argument. TV is a medium which simplifies stories. Ellaria (who the haters have been ranting about so much) has had two scenes and the season is half over.


The show has to cater to casual viewers, dedicated viewers, book readers all at the same time. As a book reader I see enough there to find enjoyable, I wish some things had been done differently but I feel the show is catering to my needs as a book reader adequately. From what I've read casual viewers are finding enough there to keep them interested also. I think this is a job well done. If the tv show only catered exclusively to book readers it would have failed, it would have had a huge budget would have taken 12 years or more with a much smaller audience.


I am not seeing complaints in unsullied forums about the show being too dumb. Although I do see a lot of book snobs complaining about their favourite being missed.



For what it is, An Epic Fantasy TV show, Game of Thrones is an excellent example. Name another fantasy show that come remotely close. It's nearest competitor is Legend of the Seeker or something (which I quite enjoyed but it pales into insignificance in comparison to GoT).


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1) You can all be like "the last 2 books suck" all you want, that doesn't make it true. The fact is, some of you seem to have a hard time comprehending simple forum posts, so i think you might enjoy yourselves more by limiting your reading material to Cosmo, Esquire and the like.

2) All we need to do to discern that D&D view the viewers as morons is to point out things like having Sansa light a Bat Signal to Brienne. It's like, they draw their "original", "bold" ideas from an Elementary School class.

The books can be great and still make crappy TV. Ever seen a TV adaptation of 'to the lighthouse'?

There was no need to send Tyrion to Valyria in the books, he could just talk about the uncle who might have gone there. In the TV show the only way to put Valyria on screen was to send a character there.

What folk are really upset about is the show is going beyond book 5. It is either Stannis or Jon on that pyre in the trailers. So folk are not going to have the advantage over the unsullied any longer.

Putting a light in the tower is the obvious way to signal for help. Brienne isn't LittleFigner, she does things simple not so clever its stupid.

The Jeyne Poole plot was stupid, the lemon cakes plot was stupider. Just because you can't see the point in a scheme doesn't mean there isn't one. Besides which LF isn't that clever. He just does a bunch of stupid stuff and claims the bits that worked were a 'strategy'.

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See above - is it because the genuinely don't make sense, or is it just because they don't align with how your imagination interpreted the book?

Well, as an example, how does Varys' decision to marry Danaerys to Drogo and have the Dothraki invade the 7 Kingdoms make sense now that there is no Aegon plotline? How does setting the various Lords of Westeros against eachother and then unleashing an army of raping, murdering slavers serve 'the realm' exactly?

Edited by WSmith84

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What folk are really upset about is the show is going beyond book 5. It is either Stannis or Jon on that pyre in the trailers. So folk are not going to have the advantage over the unsullied any longer.

No. This is not why people are upset. Many of us care far more about the journey there being satisfying.

Again, why can't show-watchers accept that the show is flawed and it doesn't make us snobby book-readers for criticising it?

Edited by WSmith84

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