[Poll] How would you rate episode 505

[Ran]

and no, female archers were not THAT common in the middle ages

No one said they were. They existed. That's sufficient to accept the idea of Jeyne Westerling joining the defense of her seat when she lacks much of a garrison, just as women did in Europe throughout the Middle Ages. You're the one who felt it was very "Disney" to have the scenario, but I get the sense that you're now walking back from that and taking a different approach given what follows.

creating that particular gem of a scenario would have needed building another castle (or having daytime shoots at Blackwater) and another giant siege scene created

Not really. They had scores of extras lying around on that battlefield. A day-for-night shoot with a wall and a parapet, a dozen men, and it could be done in a day or two. You don't need a giant siege, you just need close ups of Robb saying, "Follow me, the Crag's almost fallen!" and a few guys following him up a ladder as some arrows fly and there's shouts and cries and the like. A little bit of fighting and they surrender. Hell, make a nice visual parallel to Stannis's later fighting on the parapets of the city, while far smaller scale would emphasize the grandeur of what they achieved at Blackwater.

But really, Jeyne could have appeared under other circumstances, too. Captured on the road, perhaps, having personally come with the Westerling banners (this, too, is known from history!) and now trying to escape, etc., etc. The whole "I'm a battlefield nurse with no rank or position, a foreigner no less, who grows up in a world where I can believe it's fine to criticize a victorious king on the battlefield about fighting battles and causing deaths" thing was uncannily similar to the very thing GRRM said shouldn't happen in Westeros.

But hey, I suppose Blackwater wasn't that important anyway.

The excesses to which you go from this point forward make it feel like you've run out of steam and feel that now exaggeration is the way to win an argument, or at least make people stop taking you seriously enough to continue holding a conversation. Take a break when you feel that way, you'll enjoy things much more.

[Cas Stark]

No one said they were. They existed. That's sufficient to accept the idea of Jeyne Westerling joining the defense of her seat when she lacks much of a garrison, just as women did in Europe throughout the Middle Ages. You're the one who felt it was very "Disney" to have the scenario, but I get the sense that you're now walking back from that and taking a different approach given what follows.

Not really. They had scores of extras lying around on that battlefield. A day-for-night shoot with a wall and a parapet, a dozen men, and it could be done in a day or two. You don't need a giant siege, you just need close ups of Robb saying, "Follow me, the Crag's almost fallen!" and a few guys following him up a ladder as some arrows fly and there's shouts and cries and the like. A little bit of fighting and they surrender. Hell, make a nice visual parallel to Stannis's later fighting on the parapets of the city, while far smaller scale would emphasize the grandeur of what they achieved at Blackwater.

But really, Jeyne could have appeared under other circumstances, too. Captured on the road, perhaps, having personally come with the Westerling banners (this, too, is known from history!) and now trying to escape, etc., etc. The whole "I'm a battlefield nurse with no rank or position, a foreigner no less, who grows up in a world where I can believe it's fine to criticize a victorious king on the battlefield about fighting battles and causing deaths" thing was uncannily similar to the very thing GRRM said shouldn't happen in Westeros.

The excesses to which you go from this point forward make it feel like you've run out of steam and feel that now exaggeration is the way to win an argument, or at least make people stop taking you seriously enough to continue holding a conversation. Take a break when you feel that way, you'll enjoy things much more.

My idea....not very good...was something along the lines of making her the only remaining Westerling @ her house, sort of the maid marian scenario looking after her small folk during the war, and then she & Robb would fall in love when the castle is taken/men garrisoned there or whatever, and since her house was sworn to the Lannisters he would have needed to marry her to ensure her protection from Tywin's wrath at her cooperation/affair...something along those lines...that would account for the difficulties of the falling in love at a static site and the whole virginity deal, but would still preserve Robb's motivation for the marriage: protecting her instead of throwing away his vow for luv and lolz.

[Lord Eddard]

I see. When I give my opinion, as I clearly indicated, I'm labeled a 'true believer', when you and others state yours as facts, you're just right and that's it. :rolleyes:

You're a funny guy. Of course it's my opinion that Feast and especially Dance show a sharp decline in quality compared to the first three magnificient books and that D&D did a good job converting this fairly convoluted and bloated travelogue into something people actually like to watch. You can only ever have an opinion about subjective impressions, there is no factual right or wrong. If lots of people share your opinion then it becomes the majority consensus. For example, the majority consensus is that Crossroads of Twilight is an outright horribly boring book but there is still a minority who actually likes and defends it. Still only opinions and not facts.

There, some basic education for you.

[The Eunuch]

10 ! One of my favorite episodes.

There's all we want : the loss of someone we loved, thriller at Winterfell, mystery and wonders in Valyria (that was beautiful, and with Drogon flying! wow), Jon and Dany killing the child in them and facing new problems, Tyrion's sarcasms... And when Tyrion and Jorah seem to become friends, the revelation about Jorah...

That was great television, and it's not even the last episode! This is going to be amazing! :bowdown:

[Ran]

My idea....not very good...was something along the lines of making her the only remaining Westerling @ her house, sort of the maid marian scenario looking after her small folk during the war, and then she & Robb would fall in love when the castle is taken/men garrisoned there or whatever, and since her house was sworn to the Lannisters he would have needed to marry her to ensure her protection from Tywin's wrath at her cooperation/affair...something along those lines...that would account for the difficulties of the falling in love at a static site and the whole virginity deal, but would still preserve Robb's motivation for the marriage: protecting her instead of throwing away his vow for luv and lolz.

Thinking further, the minimum they needed to do was:

Robb spots a woman in noble westerlands garb tending to the woman. He asks Lord Bolton who it is. "Jeyne Westerling, Lady of the Crag." She has no living father, no brothers, no uncles at hand when Lord Tywin called for the banners to defend the West, so she led her men here personally. We're told she was captured with other lords, and was given parole to help tend to the wounded.

Conversation between Robb and Jeyne ensues (without needing her to sass him about killing men in his war, please), and sparks can fly. They wanted to retain a little of the Volantis business? Robb can remark at how she doesn't look like a westerman, not like the tall, fair Lannisters. "My grandmother was from Volantis," she could say. "And... ?" "And that's it." Oh, family history that's dark and scandalous? And come episode 1 of season 5, an old, dark crone muttering Valyrian to herself, a faded tattoo at her eye...

Seriously, it sometimes feels like despite having so much of the show planned for them, they don't think very long term with some of these things. Oh well.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Regarding the whole Talisa situation... the Westerling saga wasn't THAT much better and a teenager guy that falls to a hot foreigner chick makes allot more sense on screen than a teenager guy marrying a random chick he just met out of 'onor 'cause said chick gave him a bandage and he happened to drunkenly fuck her. On TV to audience that are, well, people, of 21st century, it's just moronic.

It's funny you bring this up since I have an unsullied friend that thought everything involving Talisa was ridiculous, so much so that friend even cheered when Talisa was killed.

I had just convinced my friend to watch the show and friend has binge watched the whole series over the past few weeks. Talisa was the one and only thing that friend found completely unrealistic and divergent in every way.

Friend could not believe that at Robb's age and position he would have anything to do with a foreigner that he knew absolutely nothing about, in the middle of a war no less, or that Robb would risk things of such great importance for her. Friend also said on her own Talisa felt jarring since she seems like she belongs on a WWII battlefield instead.

[Modesty Lannister]

Spoken like a true believer.

Written like a true troll.

[Modesty Lannister]

Shireen's campaign against wildling illiteracy.

:bowdown: Gold. Pure gold.

[Cas Stark]

:bowdown: Gold. Pure gold.

I can't take credit for it, somebody else said it before me, but yeah, so good, it bears repeating. LOL.

[Facebookless Man]

You're a funny guy. Of course it's my opinion that Feast and especially Dance show a sharp decline in quality compared to the first three magnificient books and that D&D did a good job converting this fairly convoluted and bloated travelogue into something people actually like to watch. You can only ever have an opinion about subjective impressions, there is no factual right or wrong. If lots of people share your opinion then it becomes the majority consensus. For example, the majority consensus is that Crossroads of Twilight is an outright horribly boring book but there is still a minority who actually likes and defends it. Still only opinions and not facts.

There, some basic education for you.

I'm not sure I'm following your argument. Is it that, since opinions can differ, facts do not exist? Am I entitled to my opinion if I think, e.g., that the moon is made of cheese?

Or was taste the word you were looking for? And in that case, can I have your argument regarding the absolute subjectivity of taste?

Because, possibly due to my embarassing lack of basic education, I have always figured that if someone thought Lady Gaga was better than J.S. Bach they were just, you know, wrong.

[Modesty Lannister]

I can't take credit for it, somebody else said it before me, but yeah, so good, it bears repeating. LOL.

In that spirit we should mention Missandei's campaign for Unsullied literacy and bilingualism. And Myranda's good stitching appreciation society.

[Metopheles]

Loras' geography lessons.

[Modesty Lannister]

And a random old woman's campaign against Alzheimer's disease - The North Remembers.

[Metopheles]

And a random old woman's campaign against Alzheimer's disease - The North Remembers.

But what do we remember? I only remember we remember something...

I always know I am forgetting something while grocery shopping. I just don't know what. It's like the rememberall from Harry Potter.

Would be great if the woman goes in her room and the woman tells her what she remembers, then "Sansa" turns around and reveals it is Ramsay wearing a wig. You know, for shock effect. Let's kill some people to get more viewers!

[Modesty Lannister]

But what do we remember? I only remember we remember something...

I always know I am forgetting something while grocery shopping. I just don't know what. It's like the rememberall from Harry Potter.

Would be great if the woman goes in her room and the woman tells her what she remembers, then "Sansa" turns around and reveals it is Ramsay wearing a wig. You know, for shock effect. Let's kill some people to get more viewers!

It's amazing that Sansa cannot remember a random old woman who has supposedly worked in WF all her life. Lucky that the random old woman found Sansa before Alzheimer's claims her.

[Lord Eddard]

I'm not sure I'm following your argument. Is it that, since opinions can differ, facts do not exist? Am I entitled to my opinion if I think, e.g., that the moon is made of cheese?

Or was taste the word you were looking for? And in that case, can I have your argument regarding the absolute subjectivity of taste?

Because, possibly due to my embarassing lack of basic education, I have always figured that if someone thought Lady Gaga was better than J.S. Bach they were just, you know, wrong.

Don't beat yourself up, you're just confusing taste (subjective) and facts (objective), with Lady Gaga and Bach being the former and the moon made out of cheese the latter. It's a common misconception. You can't label taste with words like "right" or "wrong" because those terms only defer to facts. Taste is always personal and can be "bad" or "good" but these terms are always volatile and depend on the general consensus at the moment. Bach might be more relevant in terms of complexity and cultural impact while Lady Gaga is much more suited to getting drunk and dancing. Paintings made by monkeys were sold to oblivious customers at staggering prices who thought they were buying cutting edge modern art. Those customers obviously liked them.

So coming back to the discussion here about the novels and the TV show, I am of the opinion that D&D did a good job of adapting inferior source material (Feast and Dance) into quite a good show i.e. I like the show better than the last two books. You may accuse me of having bad taste but you can't tell my I am wrong.

[Metopheles]

It's amazing that Sansa cannot remember a random old woman who has supposedly worked in WF all her life. Lucky that the random old woman found Sansa before Alzheimer's claims her.

Even more lucky that Brienne recognised a Stark loyalist on her first try, even though to me he looked more like a Frey supporter with his cap.

She should apply for the NSA or at airport security with her extremely sharp sense for sleeper terrorists.

Or even better, employ her at Daenerys' small council, now that several positions are vacant. She could catch the harpy in no time.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Metopheles

[Modesty Lannister]

Even more lucky that Brienne recognised a Stark loyalist on her first try, even though to me he looked more like a Frey supporter with his cap.

She should apply for the NSA or at airport security with her extremely sharp sense for sleeper terrorists.

Or even better, employ her at Daenerys' small council, now that several positions are vacant. She could catch the harpy in no time.

Brienne is killing people with bluntness. She gave a random old guy a heart attack, but there was no budget for that, so it happened off screen. Sansa needs her more than Daenerys does. Brienne will help Sansa remember while Daenerys has FDaario and St Tyrion and StoneJorah are on their way. As is Drogon more importantly.

ETA: Does anyone else expect Gendry to appear on the horizon each time someone is in a boat? For a second in E4 I thought it was him, but it turned out to be Jaibronn. I wonder if he reached Summer Isles by now.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Modesty Lannister

[WSmith84]

The argument that D&D are cutting out all the filler would be easier to take if they stopped adding brand new filler to replace it. Craster's Keep, Yara at the Dreadfort, Grissandei, nearly every brothel scene, more Brienne filler than the actual books (without the character and world building that those chapters include)... All filler.

And they decided to change Reek's stuff, which was some of the stuff that definitely didn't need changing. They decided to shoe-horn in Sansa's stuff, and so far it's done nothing for either character. But of course, posters just tell me that Show LF is supposed to be stupid. Because his plan certainly is.

Talysa.... God, I remember watching that episode (I hadn't even read ACoK at that point) and rolling my eyes at how obvious it was that she and Robb would fall in love and at how ridiculous her character was.

[Metopheles]

why couldn't Talisa just be a westerosi noble that turned away from her lifestyle?

I wanna love or like the show. But every time I forgive them, they cut off my hand and I go, well, not your fault, eh, and then find out if was a rusty knife.

Next they do something nice, a good change, you wanna applaud it, open this gift and inside there is a mosquito with malaria.

And you still give them a chance, want to hug it out, but they stab you in your kidneys.

Sometimes you have to stop forgiving everything and be harsh.