[Poll] How would you rate episode 505

[jacksonbrowne]

Robb attacks the Crag. He takes an arrow in the shoulder from someone shooting from the walls. He gets to the wall... and finds Jeyne Westerling, the young Lady of the Crag, holding a crossbow, but forced to surrender the castle now that he and his men have gotten over the wall. She's bold, clever, fierce. She sees he's taken care of as he's honorable. They talk and get to know one another. He starts to find he wants her with him, and insists she's his guest when he returns to the riverlands. Everything can be exactly the same as in the show from that point on, to be honest with you.

I'm not really sure why they felt they had to go so very far afield, to the point where they invented a character who fell into the very same trap of poorly conceived "Disney medievalism" that GRRM decried in a season 1 interview with TIME. It was very strange.

Audience not caring is certainly a fair bar. Fairly low bar, as well, but still.

I just can't but smile at just HOW Disney this scenario is... It's right there with POTUS piloting a jet to ward off alien invasion. A chick sawing off mutilated legs feels much less Disney to me.

Edited May 16, 2015 by jacksonbrowne

[kissdbyfire]

Robb didn't fall in love in the books. He married her to preserve her honour after they, well, fucked. THIS is the unrealistic version.

And books are not the show, as I told you, you can't pages worth of inner monologue and drawn out complex reasoning shown in a scene or two. You could have voiceover but that then would be as shit as the voiceover in Outlander is.

We never get Robb's inner monologue in the books. There are possibly dozens of ways to go about this arc that does not involve changing Jeyne Westerling into Talisa whatshername.

[AlpenglowMemories]

Speaking of Talisa, I wonder if there's any chance they'll actually address her family's response to the Red Wedding?

[jacksonbrowne]

We never get Robb's inner monologue in the books. There are possibly dozens of ways to go about this arc that does not involve changing Jeyne Westerling into Talisa whatshername.

Yeah and you would have hated every single one of them as much if it did not follow the letter to the book exactly.

Edited May 16, 2015 by jacksonbrowne

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah and you would have hated every single one of them as much if it did not follow the letter to the book exactly.

Huh? I am talking about the books. We never get Robb's inner monologue

because he isn't a PoV character.

You said it would be difficult for the show to capture Robb's inner monologue, remember?

Edited May 16, 2015 by kissdbyfire

[jacksonbrowne]

Huh? I am talking about the books. We never get Robb's inner monologue

because he isn't a PoV character.

You said it would be difficult for the show to capture Robb's inner monologue, remember?

No, I said it would be difficult to show inner monologues of characters. Like Catelyn trying to make sense in her head of why her son acted the way he did. The book had it even easier, the whole scenario was only ever mentioned in passing as it was not directly experienced by anyone the books are about.

[jacksonbrowne]

Robb attacks the Crag. He takes an arrow in the shoulder from someone shooting from the walls. He gets to the wall... and finds Jeyne Westerling, the young Lady of the Crag, holding a crossbow,

Just add a crossbow in Jenny's hand and THIS is what I picture reading that particular scenario:

http://hookedonhouses.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Forrest-and-Jennys-wedding-Forrest-Gump-movie-2.jpg

[Modesty Lannister]

Just add a crossbow in Jenny's hand and THIS is what I picture reading that particular scenario:

http://hookedonhouses.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Forrest-and-Jennys-wedding-Forrest-Gump-movie-2.jpg

So, iyo Talysa introduction is a stroke of genius. I explained why I think it isn't the case. Care to explain why you think it is the case or do you want to continue with unsubstantiated statements?

Edited May 16, 2015 by Modesty Lannister

[Ran]

I just can't but smile at just HOW Disney this scenario is.

I take it you're not familiar with the many, many historical accounts of women actively defending the walls of besieged castles and cities in the Middle Ages. :( Simon de Montfort the elder was killed by a siege engine operated by women, according to accounts of the Siege of Tolouse, and that's just one of many examples you'll find in the literature.

The TV show's already established that women might learn to use bows (see S1E1), in line with the series which has references to much the same. A lady joining defense of the walls of an undergarrisoned castle is not, frankly, strange at all.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Ran

[jacksonbrowne]

I take it you're not familiar with the many, many historical accounts of women actively defending the walls of besieged castles and cities in the Middle Ages. :( Simon de Montfort the elder was killed by a siege engine operated by women, according to accounts of the Siege of Tolouse, and that's just one of many examples you'll find in the literature.

The TV show's already established that women might learn to use bows (see S1E1), in line with the series which has references to much the same. A lady joining defense of the walls of an undergarrisoned castle is not, frankly, strange at all.

I mean even if we assume that Westeros (and no, female archers were not THAT common in the middle ages, it was more like female Formula One drivers these days, a theoretical possibility but really not happening in life) is riddled with female warriors and every second daughter of a noble family either practises archery , leads a pirate fleet, shoots crossbows or kicks badass warriors in the balls, creating that particular gem of a scenario would have needed building another castle (or having daytime shoots at Blackwater) and another giant siege scene created.

But hey, I suppose Blackwater wasn't that important anyway. They should perhaps have had Stannis yell to his men "let's take that city" then do a hard cut to him saying "shit. we lost" and be done with it. That would have given ample budget to stage the siege of Crag. Hmm, why did Tyrion suddenly have a slash across his face? Oh, we will fix it in dialogue! See - "Oh, my lion, what happened to your face? Why does a bandage run across it?" - "My sweet Shae, just as we were kicking Stannis' troops back from the mud gate a Kingsguard knight slashed me across my face!" - "oh my sweet lion, that sounds like a horrible treachery! How did you survive?" - "my trusted squire Pod put a spear through the back of his skull! Hmm, I might have to give him a raise!" - Indeed, there is much you can do simply with dialogue, no need for that pesky Blackwater battle when we can have so much better and true to the word of the good book character study.

Edited May 16, 2015 by jacksonbrowne

[Lord Eddard]

These were just some examples. It is obvious that D&D's favourite character was Tywin Lannister. They also love Tyrion, Arya and Cersei. They hate Jaime. They are totally indifferent to Sansa, Danereys and Jon Snow. They don't care for Dorne and they haven't read books 4 and 5. Being overambitious and not overly talented, they turned the books that captured tens of millions of readers all around the world into some pointless mishmash of inconsistent characters with no arcs who change from scene to scene. Now, their recipe for the show is simple - X minutes of nudity, Y minutes of violence, Z minutes of shock, D minutes of CGI and all the rest are fillers.

You cannot dispute any of this. You are of course more than free to like it. Just let others be equality free to dislike it, the author and his editor included.

Oh yes they have - but wisely decided to trim the pointless travelogue, fillers and sidequests that made up 70% of Feast and Dance. The show isn't perfect but D&D made the best out of the inferior source material they got.

[kissdbyfire]

Oh yes they have - but wisely decided to trim the pointless travelogue, fillers and sidequests that made up 70% of Feast and Dance. The show isn't perfect but D&D made the best out of the inferior source material they got.

Sorry, but all you've said are merely your opinions on these subjects. When you say show runners have "improved the inferior source material" I feel like telling you to have your head examined. I won't, though, as you're entitled to your opinion, as ridiculous as it may sound to me. The show has gaping plot holes, and most characters act as if they are schizophrenic. I have no idea where this bs that the show is improving the source material came from, but to me it's just hype, and a lot of people are buying into it.

On top of nonsensical changes, every, and I do mean every, thing the show writers created is vastly inferior to the source material, in my opinion.

[jacksonbrowne]

Sorry, but all you've said are merely your opinions on these subjects. When you say show runners have "improved the inferior source material" I feel like telling you to have your head examined. I won't, though, as you're entitled to your opinion, as ridiculous as it may sound to me. The show has gaping plot holes, and most characters act as if they are schizophrenic. I have no idea where this bs that the show is improving the source material came from, but to me it's just hype, and a lot of people are buying into it.

On top of nonsensical changes, every, and I do mean every, thing the show writers created is vastly inferior to the source material, in my opinion.

Spoken like a true believer.

[Cas Stark]

Oh yes they have - but wisely decided to trim the pointless travelogue, fillers and sidequests that made up 70% of Feast and Dance. The show isn't perfect but D&D made the best out of the inferior source material they got.

They added their own filler. Missy and Grey Worm's romance. Shireen's campaign against wildling illiteracy. Jamie going to Dorne.

[jacksonbrowne]

They added their own filler. Missy and Grey Worm's romance. Shireen's campaign against wildling illiteracy. Jamie going to Dorne.

You mean they should have added yet another character they should have sent to Dorne so essentially EVERYBODY there is totally new and needing to be introduced before we could start to get to the, well, plot?

[kissdbyfire]

Spoken like a true believer.

I see. When I give my opinion, as I clearly indicated, I'm labeled a 'true believer', when you and others state yours as facts, you're just right and that's it. :rolleyes:

[Lord Eddard]

They added their own filler. Missy and Grey Worm's romance. Shireen's campaign against wildling illiteracy. Jamie going to Dorne.

Haha, I can't disagree with you on that :) Especially the first one bugs me. Jamie going to Dorne - well, let's see how that plays out.

[Unlady B]

Oh yes they have - but wisely decided to trim the pointless travelogue, fillers and sidequests that made up 70% of Feast and Dance. The show isn't perfect but D&D made the best out of the inferior source material they got.

Despite Brienne's, that still gets a lot of screen time, they butchered the rest. Some people may not like those plots, but to some other those plots are what makes asoiaf appealing. Victarion is one of my favorite characters and he's being cut, for example.

From the characters they're keeping, I think they're changing them drastically on purpose. It's not that there isn't material to work on and arrange how to fit it in the screen in a more faithful way according the books. It wouldn't be the first time HBO takes a novel word by word in the first season and then turn it in a completely different thing. Think of True Blood.

We may like the changes or not,, but GOT is a quality show from a lot of points of view. Personally, I'm only picky about the show when I'm talking to another reader. I take Got for what it is: a show BASED on the books.

[Lord Eddard]

*double post*

Edited May 16, 2015 by Lord Eddard

[jacksonbrowne]

Despite Brienne's, that still gets a lot of screen time, they butchered the rest. Some people may not like those plots, but to some other those plots are what makes asoiaf appealing. Victarion is one of my favorite characters and he's being cut, for example.

From the characters they're keeping, I think they're changing them drastically on purpose. It's not that there isn't material to work on and arrange how to fit it in the screen in a more faithful way according the books. It wouldn't be the first time HBO takes a novel word by word in the first season and then turn it in a completely different thing. Think of True Blood.

We may like the changes or not,, but GOT is a quality show from a lot of points of view. Personally, I'm only picky about the show when I'm talking to another reader. I take Got for what it is: a show BASED on the books.

Yeah, well I kinda liked the whole Aegon arc. Couldn't stand any of the Greyjoys or the Dorne women plotting revenge, so, I take it with a view of "you win some, you lose some". Having Jaime go down there might make the whole thing somewhat interesting. I also wonder how many people wielding pitchforks over the Sansafell thing were the same ones that lauded the Ramsay dinner scene.

Ah, yeah, the Dorne women. Another bunch of girls that prefer swords and spears to gowns and makeup. I wonder where have all those aggressive testosterone filled ladies been that are missing from my life as every woman I have ever met seems to have been interested in vastly different things.