[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVI - Back at home...

[Woman of War]

Ok, I am sure but I may be wrong.

[Mithras]

Why can we be sure of that, given that this has nothing to do with Sansa's book plotline and was in the cards before D&D got the meaningful details about the final books?

Do you have any information about how much Sansa stuff George wrote and when? For example when was this newly released Alayne chapter written for the first time?

I somehow find it hard to believe that this new Alayne chapter is the only Sansa stuff George wrote since AFfC.

[Colonel Green]

Do you have any information about how much Sansa stuff George wrote and when? For example when was this newly released Alayne chapter written for the first time?

I somehow find it hard to believe that this new Alayne chapter is the only Sansa stuff George wrote since AFfC.

Nothing has ever indicated that GRRM immediately sends them whatever he writes, particularly when it's not in finished form. We know D&D at some point saw "Mercy", one of the chapters he moved out of ADWD, but that only appeared in season 4, after the big sit-down between season 3 and season 4.

[Ingelheim]

Nothing has ever indicated that GRRM immediately sends them whatever he writes, particularly when it's not in finished form. We know D&D at some point saw "Mercy", one of the chapters he moved out of ADWD, but that only appeared in season 4, after the big sit-down between season 3 and season 4.

Sure, but the general plotline is known since the very beginning. ADWD was published right after Season 1 ended, but they knew about it even before.

They may not know the specifics, but if Sansa is going from X to Y, they've known it since a long time ago.

[Colonel Green]

Sure, but the general plotline is known since the very beginning. ADWD was published right after Season 1 ended, but they knew about it even before.

They may not know the specifics, but if Sansa is going from X to Y, they've known it since a long time ago.

Knowing character endpoints, which is what they appear to have been told, doesn't mean they know the details of the journey (indeed, they only got all that between seasons 3 and 4), so, again, I don't see why anyone would assume that D&D replacing Jeyne with Sansa means the book version will suffer like Jeyne. This is so far off-book that it really cannot be assumed to relate to anything that will happen, as they've already junked her entire plot arc and are using her to fill in for other people.

[ache]

Knowing character endpoints, which is what they appear to have been told, doesn't mean they know the details of the journey (indeed, they only got all that between seasons 3 and 4), so, again, I don't see why anyone would assume that D&D replacing Jeyne with Sansa means the book version will suffer like Jeyne. This is so far off-book that it really cannot be assumed to relate to anything that will happen, as they've already junked her entire plot arc and are using her to fill in for other people.

I think Sansa's current "plot arc" is more Ramsay filling in for HtH than Sansa filling in for Jeyne. Sansa matters, the HtH/Littlefinger-negotiated-marriage plotline probably matters, whereas Jeyne herself was mainly there to add to Theon's story. I don't think they will inflict the full Ramsay horror upon Sansa, after all, she has already donned her black feathery gown of empowerment. I think they will either water Ramsay down even more or Sansa will make her escape really quickly.

[Colonel Green]

I think Sansa's current "plot arc" is more Ramsay filling in for HtH than Sansa filling in for Jeyne. Sansa matters, the HtH/Littlefinger-negotiated-marriage plotline probably matters, whereas Jeyne herself was mainly there to add to Theon's story. I don't think they will inflict the full Ramsay horror upon Sansa, after all, she has already donned her black feathery gown of empowerment. I think they will either water Ramsay down even more or Sansa will make her escape really quickly.

I really don't see that, since Sansa's not doing any of the things she'll apparently do in the HtH plot, and they're clearly setting it up for her to escape, like Jeyne did.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Sansa feels like the main character this season. There is such a jump in focus on her. On the one hand, yay for Sophie. On the other, the story is awful. But beyond that, I'm still flummoxed at D&Ds determination to make it so as they said in the interview. We are 2 seasons off the end, where the stories of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Jaime and Cersei needs to have significant movement. Arya has been a travesty so far, and of course Bran even more so. I'm increasingly concerned that Sansa, like Robb, is peaking too soon. Plus it seems that she may not catch up with her book story. I'm getting bad feelings. Where does Sansa go after this big year when not only is Jeyne's story done but she may not catch up with her own book story?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Sansa feels like the main character this season. There is such a jump in focus on her. On the one hand, yay for Sophie. On the other, the story is awful. But beyond that, I'm still flummoxed at D&Ds determination to make it so as they said in the interview. We are 2 seasons off the end, where the stories of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Jaime and Cersei needs to have significant movement. Arya has been a travesty so far, and of course Bran even more so. I'm increasingly concerned that Sansa, like Robb, is peaking too soon. Plus it seems that she may not catch up with her book story. I'm getting bad feelings. Where does Sansa go after this big year when not only is Jeyne's story done but she may not catch up with her own book story?

I'm thinking Sansa's having tons of screentime (She has pretty much been confirmed in all episodes and we know she survives the season) because she's on the choke-point. Winterfell's the big place this year, and It might be Sansa's influence that might turn it one way or the other. Alfie's said in his latest interview that this storyline may surprise us, and that Sansa might end up controlling the whole castle. Now, I don't think this will happen, but I'm pretty sure that Sansa's going to resolve the RamsayxStannis battle.

In comparison to her, the other Starks have had limited storylines. Bran's not even on this season and Arya's having a side-story.

I still advocate that Sansa's storyline in the books will lead her to Winterfell, so I'm not annoyed at that change. I'm thinking she gets the Vale too, though I'm not sure how. But, the show will probably come up with some contrived-way for her to get it in order to help the North.

[Nefertari]

Even if Sansa has to have sex with Ramsay because this consummation is part of the marriage deal she agreed to or even if Sansa gets abused, raped and tortured - she will get out of it unbroken. She will go on, probably escape with the help of others and in time she will have her revenge. Sex with Rasay may be somewhere between unpleasant, horrible or outright life threatening but it won't be the end of Sansa's story.

She may not be unbowed but she will be unbroken. It may take time but she will come back. We don't know how and if she survives in the end but her story won't be over for many chapters yet.

Just like Dany. She got out of the Drogo experience stronger than ever and Martin wrote it.

And we can be sure: if Sansa suffers in the series suffering of the same degree will happen to her in the books.

I don't worry more for Sansa than I did worry for Dany, why should I? And, honestly, the show version of Dany's first time is somewhat more likely than Martin's version

I agree.

I think that what will happen is part of the process of transformation that Sansa will have.

So i think that in the book too, at one point, she will suffer something similar ( i don't think she will marry and have a happy marriage and her storyline is about talking about the joys of being a wife...).

And without a doubt this give us an insight about LF too, everyone is sure that in the book he cares for her, but are we really so sure?

[ummester]

Sansa feels like the main character this season. There is such a jump in focus on her. On the one hand, yay for Sophie. On the other, the story is awful. But beyond that, I'm still flummoxed at D&Ds determination to make it so as they said in the interview. We are 2 seasons off the end, where the stories of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Jaime and Cersei needs to have significant movement. Arya has been a travesty so far, and of course Bran even more so. I'm increasingly concerned that Sansa, like Robb, is peaking too soon. Plus it seems that she may not catch up with her book story. I'm getting bad feelings. Where does Sansa go after this big year when not only is Jeyne's story done but she may not catch up with her own book story?

Other than dealing with LF, I don't think she was ever destined to be anything but a tragic character, in book or show.

What happens if you set a songbird fee from it's cage? It gets wasted by a predator. Only way to keep it safe is leave it in its cage and listen to its pretty song - but that is also kind of sad.

[Colonel Green]

Sansa feels like the main character this season. There is such a jump in focus on her. On the one hand, yay for Sophie. On the other, the story is awful. But beyond that, I'm still flummoxed at D&Ds determination to make it so as they said in the interview. We are 2 seasons off the end, where the stories of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Jaime and Cersei needs to have significant movement. Arya has been a travesty so far, and of course Bran even more so. I'm increasingly concerned that Sansa, like Robb, is peaking too soon. Plus it seems that she may not catch up with her book story. I'm getting bad feelings. Where does Sansa go after this big year when not only is Jeyne's story done but she may not catch up with her own book story?

"The main character" seems a bit excessive. This is only the second episode where she's had a meaningful scene count, though I agree she's in it more.

As far as the writers wanting her to have a "big year", I'm pretty sure that's spin, as much as anything. They wanted to up the stakes in this plotline by putting Sansa in place of Jeyne (which also allows them to save space by omitting Sansa's own plotline); everything they've done is basically the absolute minimum that would be necessary to accomplish that.

What do you mean by "she may not catch up with her book story"? Her book storyline is now basically irrelevant, from what we know about the two. Also, Jeyne's story isn't done, as far as we know; actually, one scenario I've wondered about is that, if the "fArya meets Arya" plot speculation for TWOW is true, they'll have Sansa do that next year, if that's an important part of Arya's story, seeing as the Vale stuff doesn't seem all that likely to be returned to at this point. Or, if they're going to stick to the seeming importance assigned to Littlefinger in Sansa's plot, they may jury-rig some show version of that confrontation. Or she may stay in the North and remain involved in whatever Northern political plot is going to be happening (seeing as the Northern lords appear to have been written out of the show).

What happens if you set a songbird fee from it's cage? It gets wasted by a predator. Only way to keep it safe is leave it in its cage and listen to its pretty song - but that is also kind of sad.

Sansa's not a songbird.

[Woman of War]

We do not know if Sansa gets any serious Ramsay treatment, not even if there will ever be a consummated wedding night. The anticlimactic and not unlikely solution would be if Sansa starts taking off her shift when a horn blows for attack - and then she escapes.

Though this would mean that Stannis' troops move with the speed of light.

In any other character this way out for Sansa would make haters call plot armor ;)

But I am not so sure that Sansa's story is more important than Reek's. They may both have their story climax here. Reek may have to help Sansa to escape in order to find back to Theon and they then may have some hardship ahead of them out in the snow.

But then you have four, at least four, first class actors here: Rheon, Allen, Turner and last but not least McElhatton. They all should have their moments, not only Turner. The show should make the most of it. And to presenting those great actors in interaction is at least as important as to single out one particular character's storyline and to make it shine. After all the whole part of the story is invented, so invent intensely please!

And don't forget Brienne's vow

[Woman of War]

We do not know if Sansa gets any serious Ramsay treatment, not even if there will ever be a consummated wedding night. The anticlimactic and not unlikely solution would be if Sansa starts taking off her shift when a horn blows for attack - and then she escapes.

Though this would mean that Stannis' troops move with the speed of light.

In any other character this way out for Sansa would make haters call plot armor ;)

But I am not so sure that Sansa's story is more important than Reek's. They may both have their story climax here. Reek may have to help Sansa to escape in order to find back to Theon and they then may have some hardship ahead of them out in the snow.

But then you have four, at least four, first class actors here: Rheon, Allen, Turner and last but not least McElhatton. They all should have their moments, not only Turner. The show should make the most of it. And to present those great actors in interaction is at least as important as to single out one particular character's storyline and to make it shine. After all the whole part of the story is invented, so invent intensely please!

And don't forget Brienne's vow

[Alayne's Shadow.]

What happens if you set a songbird fee from it's cage? It gets wasted by a predator. Only way to keep it safe is leave it in its cage and listen to its pretty song - but that is also kind of sad.

Sansa's not a songbird. If anything, Sansa's a mockingbird.

[ummester]

Sansa's not a songbird.

A little bird to some, a dove to others. Always in a cage, and some ask her to sing them a song. What the hell else is she? She is like a canary, or budgie.

My pet budgie got fee when I was a kid, hawk ate it.

[Pies are coming]

An escape to Stannis means the show has been hyped this character so she fails and runs to a man to beg him to solve her problems for her because she's too dumb and weak to do it herself.

Sounds like the plot of a Griffith movie of this 1910s, although I may not be giving that conservative racist enough credit

[Alayne's Shadow.]

We do not know if Sansa gets any serious Ramsay treatment, not even if there will ever be a consummated wedding night. The anticlimactic and not unlikely solution would be if Sansa starts taking off her shift when a horn blows for attack - and then she escapes.

Though this would mean that Stannis' troops move with the speed of light.

In any other character this way out for Sansa would make haters call plot armor ;)

But I am not so sure that Sansa's story is more important than Reek's. They may both have their story climax here. Reek may have to help Sansa to escape in order to find back to Theon and they then may have some hardship ahead of them out in the snow.

But then you have four, at least four, first class actors here: Rheon, Allen, Turner and last but not least McElhatton. They all should have their moments, not only Turner. The show should make the most of it. And to present those great actors in interaction is at least as important as to single out one particular character's storyline and to make it shine. After all the whole part of the story is invented, so invent intensely please!

And don't forget Brienne's vow

At this point, I'm more than willing to give Sansa her consummation. It won't change her character if Ramsay is dutiful about it, which seems to be the case, according to their whole "We need her." I mean, in the Borgias, Lucrezia got a worse treatment and she endured. She and Cesare were both really well constructed characters. But then again, this is Game of Thrones, and they may prefer the whole "Throw her to the dogs" just because it's more flashy.

Also, Alfie says Reek cracks because he's afraid Sansa will go through the same process he went. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they found a way to stop the consummation. Maybe that theory about Ramsay doing it with Myranda in front of Sansa comes true? We just don't know. I won't hold my breath.

[Colonel Green]

A little bird to some, a dove to others. Always in a cage, and some ask her to sing them a song. What the hell else is she? She is like a canary, or budgie.

My pet budgie got fee when I was a kid, hawk ate it.

Wow, you're letting metaphors run away with you. She's the daughter of Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn, the blood of Winterfell. That's what her story is about.

An escape to Stannis means the show has been hyped this character so she fails and runs to a man to beg him to solve her problems for her because she's too dumb and weak to do it herself.

Sounds like the plot of a Griffith movie of this 1910s, although I may not be giving that conservative racist enough credit

"Escape to Stannis" isn't actually failure within the show -- it's Littlefinger's entire plan for her. That would be success, as far as the show has set it up.

[ummester]

Sansa's not a songbird. If anything, Sansa's a mockingbird.

Just looked them up, had no idea what they are. They look like they'd be better off in a cage if there was a hawk, or even crow around also :D