R+L=J Hint

[sj4iy]

You conflating the events of the pyre with miracles in general, something I did not do.

Sure, many miracles can happen, have happened and will happen in ASOIAF. However, someone surviving a pyre is a unique miracle not to be repeated again. Dany performing the magic of the pyre and surviving it was a unique miracle. Sure, Jon can recover from his wounds or he can be given the kiss of life, GRRM has never stated that either of these miracles are unique, like he has stated about Dany's pyre.

I'm sure GRRM can come up with many of imaginative ways of Jon surviving the stabbing but he's not going to survive it by being [not]burned in a pyre.

This is the last I will say about this, I've already had this conversation with you in the past and I really don't want to go around in circles again.

I never once suggested that Jon would rise from a pyre, so I'm not getting where you think I said that.

I'm simply saying that just because Dany hatched dragons out of pyre without dying herself doesn't prevent Jon from not dying in a magical way without Melisandre's help. I don't see how the two are remotely related in any way whatsoever, or why the presence of one precludes the other from happening.

[Boudica]

A one-time miracle means just that, one time never to be repeated again. The point of the pyre is that DANY performed the magic (and yes, she very much realized and knew what she was doing), it wasn't performed on her. She used whatever innate magic she has, plus the dragon eggs themselves are part of the ritual. The dragon eggs were an essential part of the spell along with other elements, such as the blood sacrifice of MMD.

And like I stated above any repeat of this would just cheapen the importance and uniqueness of the Dany's pyre.

Melissandra believed she didn't have the power at that time, that does not mean that she will never have the ability to perform that kind of magic.

It would be another one time miracle event. The magic obviously comes from Danny due to her Targaryen blood, Jon has the same blood. The event was in season one, Dany's dragons are already so big now I dont think it would really take anything away from Dany, it has been quite a while. There are some prophesies about waking a stone dragon from smoke, that could obviously refer to Dany's experience, or as often the use of the term dragon sometimes refers to a person, and it could mean that Jon would be waking up from a fire.

Dany's Targaryen blood obviously helped to hatch the dragons, but it always appeared like it was some kind of a blood magic ritual, life for death. Therefore the watch can just place one of Jon's assassins with him together on a pyre. Of course they would be creating blood magic unbeknownst to themselves. It isn't exactly the same event since there will not be real dragons hatching, just a similar concept.

[Boudica]

I've tried starting a new topic on this but did anyone else come to this conclusion?

When the old man who brought the water pot into Brienne and Pod's chambers mentioned Eddard Stark I had this feeling that he was Howland Reed. Brienne told him she had swore an oath to Cat and when he said Cat is dead she responded with "that does not release me from my oath" (or something like that). If it truly is Howland then this scene would make sense because that parallels his oath to Eddard about the Tower of Joy. Its a perfect way to introduce him into the plot. Anyone else agree or care to expand?

That is a really interesting thought!

[Boudica]

I have been wondering who will be around to tell any of the living or soon to be revived characters who Jon's parents were. I thought it would be Selmy in the book, but the show dispensed with that. Then I thought maybe Aegon would know somehow, but he appears to be on borrowed time.

That leaves some gimmick (a vision by Bran, for example, as someone suggested in this thread) or just creating a reason for some other character to have that knowledge. For instance, the show could have Stannis saying that Ned confided in him about Jon's parentage and made him promise not to tell Robert because it would drive a wedge between their alliance. Or Littlefinger could be the choice given his odd reaction to Sansa's mention of the rape of Lyanna, but it is hard to think of a credible situation where Littlefinger would know this or, more practically, be able to prove it to anyone if he has some 3rd hand gossip as a source.

I am not sure about the show, I guess they could just have someone figure it out in the show. Someone like Varys.

But in the book it seems like there are some people in Dorne that might know the truth. It you look at the description of the Tower of Joy at some point "they" are mentioned which makes it sounds like there where perhaps other people, perhaps servants from Starfall. Someone Wylla was perhaps there to help Lyanna during the birth, if she was there or not, she should really know something. Ned went to Starfall, after Lyanna died, it seems quite likely that there would be someone there who knows, what really happened. I ve seen some theories of Darkstar being a squire to one of the members of the kingsguard. It said that he is dangerous and might know something.

In the books it might happen that Obara Sand and Balon Swann catches him at Starfall, who knows in the process they might learn that there is another Targaryen, or more specifically another son of Rheagar out there. This would place Doran in a very difficult situation. My guess would be that the audience might learn the truth, but they will not tell anybody, they will keep it a secret because it would completely ruin Doran's plans for House Martell. But who knows, when I actually type out the plan, it sounds a bit long and perhaps to complicated. It would properly just be easier to introduce Howland Reed, although it is strange that we haven't seen him thus far, I ve wondered if he perhaps cant leave Greywater watch for some reason.

[I am a Dragon]

I've tried starting a new topic on this but did anyone else come to this conclusion?

When the old man who brought the water pot into Brienne and Pod's chambers mentioned Eddard Stark I had this feeling that he was Howland Reed. Brienne told him she had swore an oath to Cat and when he said Cat is dead she responded with "that does not release me from my oath" (or something like that). If it truly is Howland then this scene would make sense because that parallels his oath to Eddard about the Tower of Joy. Its a perfect way to introduce him into the plot. Anyone else agree or care to expand?

I assumed he was a Frey because of his cap

[chambraigne]

I am not sure about the show, I guess they could just have someone figure it out in the show. Someone like Varys.

But in the book it seems like there are some people in Dorne that might know the truth. It you look at the description of the Tower of Joy at some point "they" are mentioned which makes it sounds like there where perhaps other people, perhaps servants from Starfall. Someone Wylla was perhaps there to help Lyanna during the birth, if she was there or not, she should really know something. Ned went to Starfall, after Lyanna died, it seems quite likely that there would be someone there who knows, what really happened. I ve seen some theories of Darkstar being a squire to one of the members of the kingsguard. It said that he is dangerous and might know something.

I'm thinking Sam reads some of Aemon's writings and figures it out.

[Brandon_23]

Question do you guys think R+L=J will be revealed this season? I have a feeling it might they dont have many seasons left and they have been giving serious hints all season maybe in final episode.

[Aslerys]

That hint was so obvious that I actually laughed out loud!

Question do you guys think R+L=J will be revealed this season? I have a feeling it might they dont have many seasons left and they have been giving serious hints all season maybe in final episode.

That would be a little rushed imo but it could happen, of course. I'm betting early next season though, mainly because I think that Bran is going to be the first to find out and he is not in this season, obviously.

[Northbound3.0]

I loved that little nod. It reminded of Yoda in Empire: "No, there is another". :D

I was half expecting those to be Selmy's last words to Dany.

Dany: No. NO! You can't leave me. Im in need of your council and the last Targaryen needs a Queensguard.

Selmy: No, there is another!

Dany: Wut?

[Pashernate Reader]

Question do you guys think R+L=J will be revealed this season? I have a feeling it might they dont have many seasons left and they have been giving serious hints all season maybe in final episode.

I hope so. I can't stand another season of constant winks and nods.

[Bane66]

i apologize if this is in the wrong section but i had a theory/ question: What are the chances that Jon gets through the season unscathed? Episode 8 is titled Hardhome which is where Jon is going, will he even get back in time to have his Caesar treatment? Maybe George's way of resurrecting him is too crazy and they decide to just leave him unharmed. Or perhaps get grievously wounded at Hardhome, Its certainly a possibility give that that's where we will probably see Rattleshirt again, plenty of opportunities for the situation to go south...just a thought i had the other day. Any thoughts??

[I am a Dragon]

i apologize if this is in the wrong section but i had a theory/ question: What are the chances that Jon gets through the season unscathed? Episode 8 is titled Hardhome which is where Jon is going, will he even get back in time to have his Caesar treatment? Maybe George's way of resurrecting him is too crazy and they decide to just leave him unharmed. Or perhaps get grievously wounded at Hardhome, Its certainly a possibility give that that's where we will probably see Rattleshirt again, plenty of opportunities for the situation to go south...just a thought i had the other day. Any thoughts??

LF can go from Winterfell to KL in 2 episodes. Jon will make it back. The Olly foreshadowing is cringe worthy at this point.

Before this season began, I thought they wouldn't kill him at all since he isn't a warg in the show but potato kid is telegraphing it pretty hard now.

[Pashernate Reader]

You mean, the show has to telegraph it this season since they are closer to the reveal instead of what Martin did, which was constantly telegraph it in the first book and then pretty much drop it other than a hint here or there over the course of the next four books and drop red herrings all over the place because he realized he gave it away too early?

Which makes more sense to you?

Well, yes, since the chief conspirator of the R+L=J plot was a narrator of the first book, it does make more sense to me that the lion's share of evidence would be presented therein, rather than forgoing evidence entirely and just nudging hard and constantly at the audience five years into the show.

[Boudica]

That hint was so obvious that I actually laughed out loud!

That would be a little rushed imo but it could happen, of course. I'm betting early next season though, mainly because I think that Bran is going to be the first to find out and he is not in this season, obviously.

It isn't really rushed there is only 25 episodes left in the show. They could revel the truth to the audience, and Jon might only find out next season.

[sj4iy]

Well, yes, since the chief conspirator of the R+L=J plot was a narrator of the first book, it does make more sense to me that the lion's share of evidence would be presented therein, rather than forgoing evidence entirely and just nudging hard and constantly at the audience five years into the show.

And since all of that was in his head, there's no feasible way to have that in the tv show.

And the only reason Martin did that in the first place wasn't because Ned was his chief POV, it was because he was planning 3 books and of course he would have to set it up in the first book. By the time he decided that there would be more books, it was too late to go back and change it. So instead, he dropped it as much as possible and put it on the backburner.

So it was never 'intentional'...it was bad timing on Martin's part.

[Pashernate Reader]

And since all of that was in his head, there's no feasible way to have that in the tv show.

Maggy the Frog was in Cersei's head. The Tower of Joy seems a damn sight more important. The show simply dropped the ball, because D&D were (past tense) determined to avoid flashbacks, and now that time's running out, they've got no logical way to pick it back up, so they are stuck with these silly, constant nudges and winks.

[sj4iy]

Maggy the Frog was in Cersei's head. The Tower of Joy seems a damn sight more important. The show simply dropped the ball, because D&D were (past tense) determined to avoid flashbacks, and now that time's running out, they've got no logical way to pick it back up, so they are stuck with these silly, constant nudges and winks.

How about you quit dodging the point of my posts, which I guess I will just state outright:

You don't give away your biggest mystery in the first book by giving out waaaaay to many clues when you don't end up revealing it until the 6th (or 7th) 20 years later. Because it's rather anticlimactic.

The show at least UNDERSTANDS that giving away their biggest mystery too soon would be rather dumb, and therefore- they didn't. And for YEARS, people complained that "OMG, they aren't dropping any hints!" And now that we are getting the hints, people are complaining that it's not 'subtle' enough. Well, 'subtle' rarely works on television when the characters you are referencing were dead long before the series ever began.

But whatever, I'm done debating it.

[Pashernate Reader]

The show can't give much in the way of real clues. That's the problem. It's too bloody late. So we're stuck with this rubbish.

[Mithras]

"alone"

I want to talk with Maester Aemon "alone".

I want to have a Targaryen-to-Targaryen talk with him.

[ummester]

GRRMs original reason for R+L=J was so Jon could sanctimoniously get it on with Arya :D I'm not sure that is the best reason to hinge the secret of an entire saga on.

I think the way the show is doing it is the only way they can. Ned having a Tower of Joy flashback would not have felt right in Season 1. I'm not sure Cerise having a flashback feels right in Season 5.