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The show isn’t diverting from the books that much after all.


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Then he saves Tyrion.

I must say that I think the whole Tyrion, Tywin, Tysha, Jamie and Shae thing has played out better in the show than in the books. We have still arrived at the same place, Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae and Jamie vowing to kill Tyrion - but the motivations feel far less convoluted to me.

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Sometimes I wonder what the fuck is wrong with us?

A group of jobless people writing page after page of our rants, suggestions and stuff.

D&D will never know or even bother. They have already started writing Season 6.

I wonder why we invest so much time for discussing entertainment..

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I must say that I think the whole Tyrion, Tywin, Tysha, Jamie and Shae thing has played out better in the show than in the books. We have still arrived at the same place, Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae and Jamie vowing to kill Tyrion - but the motivations feel far less convoluted to me.

I'm still trying to make a final judgment on that since I actually sensed the emotion book Tyrion was feeling better than show Tyrion. In the books, I got thesense that Tysha was the love of his life and he never forgot her even when he as with Shea. It was devastating to learn how Tywin and Jaime had lied about her in order to split them up. She wasn't whore and she really did love Tyrion. He is in Essos still wondering if she is alive or dead and wondering where do whores go? I read somewhere that GRRM will reveal in one of the final books where they go. Does this mean Tyrion finds Tysha? I don't know.

One thing that bothered me about show Shea was the surprise element of her testifying against Tyrion. She should have known him well enough that he was sending her away and saying hurtful things to her because he was trying to save her life. Tyrion's killing of her was motivated by her betrayal and hypocrisy. She was always telling him how she would protect him, etc. It made her truly look like a whore for jumping from one bed to another so quickly. She really didn't look like a person blackmailed or beaten into submission in Tywin's bed.

Bottom Line for me was that I had much more sympathy and understanding of Tyrion's motives for killing Tywin from the book version. Furthermore, it set up the stage for Jaime's devastation over Cersei's infidelity with Lancel and the Kettlebacks that Tyrion revealed to him. It was a gradual build up with him dwelling on it throughout his stay in the Riverlands, Finally, when he received her letter of help and love, he burned it. It made sense considering the weeks or months he had to consider the truth of Tyrion's words and finally seeing Cersei for the person she really was.

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When you say that only book readers have problems with that scene it sound as if greater understanding of character is something that hurts watching experience. On contrary I think that it only helps because what character does in dramatic situations should be analyzed in details. And it either stands to test or not. Tyrion in the show doesn't stand and not because we don't know his thoughts but because someone who is so lucky to live wouldn't put his life in danger again for no reason. That makes Tyrion in the show to be someone who doesn't value his life at all. But that is not first time the show did it because they also did it in trial when he demanded trial by combat before Oberyn approached him. That was also extremely stupid and risky thing to do especially because Jaime again saved his life with deal with Tywin. So in a way the show is at least constant in screwing Tyrion's character: every time Jaime saves him he is going to do something stupid and suicidal just to make Tywin mad. And that is not good writing at all because it changes characterization without any explanation, because Tyrion was not stupid and suicidal up to that point. He was not suicidal even in battle but now he suddenly is when he's in trial? Very poor writing.

Book readers don't have a better understanding of the TV characters by default. We have a richer understanding of the world and history, and we have alternate data points to draw on when we want to talk about it, but when it comes down to it, the show, like any piece of art (high or low) must stand on on its own merits. The show is an adaptation. It's been a fairly faithful adaptation, in my view, but there have been some changes, many of which you have pointed out, and those things mean that Tyrion is a slightly different character. He's much more charming and spontaneous than book Tyrion (who I love in a different way.) We don't know more about this character by having read the books. We know him from what we see in the show. Show Tyrion _would_ decide to go see Tywin at the last minute. At least to me, it was completely believable, and therefore, not bad writing. I think the big difference between our experiences is that I have been willing to let the show be its own entity since it began.

I did have a moment of resistance. When I first saw promo pictures and learned that the Targaryans wouldn't have violet eyes, and Jaime Lannister would have dirty bronde hair, I freaked out. It took one episode to decide I preferred the realistic look of the show to the fantasy genre style looks of the characters in the books. I've trusted the show to be itself since. And while I haven't liked every change, I've enjoyed the show. Books will always trump TV when it comes to true complexity, as long as they're written well.

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I'm still trying to make a final judgment on that since I actually sensed the emotion book Tyrion was feeling better than show Tyrion. In the books, I got thesense that Tysha was the love of his life and he never forgot her even when he as with Shea. It was devastating to learn how Tywin and Jaime had lied about her in order to split them up. She wasn't whore and she really did love Tyrion. He is in Essos still wondering if she is alive or dead and wondering where do whores go? I read somewhere that GRRM will reveal in one of the final books where they go. Does this mean Tyrion finds Tysha? I don't know.

One thing that bothered me about show Shea was the surprise element of her testifying against Tyrion. She should have known him well enough that he was sending her away and saying hurtful things to her because he was trying to save her life. Tyrion's killing of her was motivated by her betrayal and hypocrisy. She was always telling him how she would protect him, etc. It made her truly look like a whore for jumping from one bed to another so quickly. She really didn't look like a person blackmailed or beaten into submission in Tywin's bed.

Bottom Line for me was that I had much more sympathy and understanding of Tyrion's motives for killing Tywin from the book version. Furthermore, it set up the stage for Jaime's devastation over Cersei's infidelity with Lancel and the Kettlebacks that Tyrion revealed to him. It was a gradual build up with him dwelling on it throughout his stay in the Riverlands, Finally, when he received her letter of help and love, he burned it. It made sense considering the weeks or months he had to consider the truth of Tyrion's words and finally seeing Cersei for the person she really was.

I was very surprised that the show removed the Tysha angle. I agree with you about how it was the pivotal moment for Tyrion and the true reason he killed Tywin. It was the last straw, the moment he found out that Tysha was never a whore. Finding Shae in Tywin's bed (wearing his hand necklace, no less) was just icing on the cake, and a way to show Tywin's rank hypocrisy. The Tysha story told us what a truly horrible person Tywin was. The fact that Jaime told him about it matters, too. All that complexity is gone now.

I can understand a lot of the boiling down and streamlining of things the show has had to do, but this one seemed entirely unnecessary and a much.... flatter choice.

As for the general observation by the OP, I would say the show has deviated almost entirely from the books. I think the show will come to the same ending, but the way they are getting to it has been altered completely at this point.

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I was very surprised that the show removed the Tysha angle. I agree with you about how it was the pivotal moment for Tyrion and the true reason he killed Tywin. It was the last straw, the moment he found out that Tysha was never a whore. Finding Shae in Tywin's bed (wearing his hand necklace, no less) was just icing on the cake, and a way to show Tywin's rank hypocrisy. The Tysha story told us what a truly horrible person Tywin was. The fact that Jaime told him about it matters, too. All that complexity is gone now.

I can understand a lot of the boiling down and streamlining of things the show has had to do, but this one seemed entirely unnecessary and a much.... flatter choice.

As for the general observation by the OP, I would say the show has deviated almost entirely from the books. I think the show will come to the same ending, but the way they are getting to it has been altered completely at this point.

Exactly, and then why introduce the Tysha thing anyway if they weren't going to follow-through with it? Oh yeah, planning! Some people do it, some people cater to the masses, and boy, once Saint Tyrion, patron of one-liners, got established as a fan-favourite, there was no way they were gonna soil that beautiful relationship of his with Larry the Plotslayer... and given that Carol is totally not the kind of woman who uses sex for political advancement, what kind of impact would 'she fucked Lancel and... well... basically that's it, but she drinks like a fish!' have anyway?

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No, wait, they're saving that line for Batfinger. While brutally raping her, Ramsay realizes Sansa's hymen is not intact, and confronts Batfinger with the fact immediately upon him bamfing back from King's landing, to which the latter retorts: 'Ok, I admit it, she might have fucked Joffrey and Tyrion, and Dontos for all I care, I'm not that knowledgeable on the show anyway'


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Oh boy, I knew I was gonna regret outting myself as a _former_ college professor.

I don't think misogyny makes a character complex. Tyrion is complex because he struggles with what the right thing is to do. He wears a mask of jolliness to hide the deep shame of being despised by his father and sister. He loves his brother even as his brother deserts him regularly to have sex with the sister who hates him. He clearly loves Cersei even though he despises her. He does a lot of non-saintly things on the show. He trolls people like Jon Snow for fun. He sends Myrcella to Dorne. He says it's to protect her, but that's bullshit. He does it to piss off Cersei and to find out who is telling her stuff. He kills both Shae and Tywin. The fact that they both deserved it, sort of, doesn't let him off the hook for murdering two people. He jokes now about wanting to drink himself to death, but I think he meant it. Until he saw that dragon.

These are just some of things that he has left over from his book characterisation. If you want to justify Show Tyrion being just as complex as book Tyrion, you're going to have to reference some new levels of complexity that make up for that.

Tyrion's relationship with women is one of the centrepieces of his character. You don't get to just handwave that away, it's incredibly important.

Tyrion is made into a complete saint in the show. Trolling Jon does not make him an anti-hero, nor does drinking a lot. Using sarcasm and a love of drink as a stand in for true moral ambiguity is the sign of amateur writing. There is no evidence that I remember that suggests that sending Myrcella to Dorne was anything but a wise move to sure up alliances and keep her safe. He kills Tywin and Shae yes. But the events are changed so that he kills Shae in self-defence, rather than completely overpowering her. Even here D+D erase Tyrion's ambiguity to make him justified in all he does.

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Book readers don't have a better understanding of the TV characters by default. We have a richer understanding of the world and history, and we have alternate data points to draw on when we want to talk about it, but when it comes down to it, the show, like any piece of art (high or low) must stand on on its own merits. The show is an adaptation. It's been a fairly faithful adaptation, in my view, but there have been some changes, many of which you have pointed out, and those things mean that Tyrion is a slightly different character. He's much more charming and spontaneous than book Tyrion (who I love in a different way.) We don't know more about this character by having read the books. We know him from what we see in the show. Show Tyrion _would_ decide to go see Tywin at the last minute. At least to me, it was completely believable, and therefore, not bad writing. I think the big difference between our experiences is that I have been willing to let the show be its own entity since it began.



I did have a moment of resistance. When I first saw promo pictures and learned that the Targaryans wouldn't have violet eyes, and Jaime Lannister would have dirty bronde hair, I freaked out. It took one episode to decide I preferred the realistic look of the show to the fantasy genre style looks of the characters in the books. I've trusted the show to be itself since. And while I haven't liked every change, I've enjoyed the show. Books will always trump TV when it comes to true complexity, as long as they're written well.




You are mistaking me again. I didn't have any problem with Targaryen's eyes and Jaime's hair in the show despite the fact that I liked their descriptions in the books. I understand differences between mediums and some things like violet eyes probably look better in our imagination than if we actually see them. So please don't impose book purism on me. This has nothing to do with book purism but with the fact that one character makes everything exactly as he made in the books but without main reason to do that. It is not about would show Tyrion decide to go or now. Show Tyrion obviously would because he went there but it doesn't mean it was convincing. On contrary it was very unconvincing and not just for me as book reader but for many show watchers as well. In fact I don't know even one show watcher that understands Tyrion's motivations in the show. Like you said they didn't even know where he entered until later when they saw Tywin. But if the show is to be really seriously analyzed as its own entity it wouldn't stand on its own merits. If you think that people like Tyrion who are escaping from prison and certain death would ever think about settling some old scores before they actually escape to security than I guess that maybe you actually want to like this show no matter what and because of that you just accept whatever the show does. That is your right but that doesn't have anything to do with analyzing the show as separate entity but that is putting the show above analysis.



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Not really, the title of the thread is genuinely hilarious, but yes, I wouldn't even have noticed it existed if they hadn't dropped us in gen pop again...

Actually, I take it back. If anything, the title of the thread is not bold enough. Come soon, it's the books that will be diverging from the show... and how horrible will that be, to have D&D's perfect creation ruined by a couple more ponderous tomes where GRRM will bore everyone to death with faultless thematic structure and character progression that actually makes sense :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

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Brienne's travels were essential to understanding the world of Westeros after the war of the 5 kings. My unsullied friend couldn't understand for example where the Sparrows came from, and I had to explain to her that in the books Brienne meets them while they're still in the Riverlands and we understand why they came to exist.

In the show they came out of nowhere.

Nonsense! Brienne is a comedic Stark-stalker motivated by her hatred for Stannis and the Sparrows meta-commentary on the lack of lesbian sex on the story.

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I agree! D&D just really did a really heavy core editing and cut off all additional/new staff that wasn't relevant to the story and just sort of fillers in the book, as we wait for the main POVs to grow up and get to the same point in the story.

I also would be greatly disappointed if the season doesn't provide some much needed spoilers for the book!

Yeah, I agree too, Jamie was getting boring, all character development and no action, the Iron Islands, half of Dorne, the Riverlands and the Vale were just dead weight and all Sansa needed was a new dress and a bit of rape to get that long-coming empowerment. AFFC and ADWD are so dull...

Me too! Nothing gets my juices running like having my favourite fantasy series spoiled by an ill-conceived tv-show!

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Yeah, I agree too, Jamie was getting boring, all character development and no action, the Iron Islands, half of Dorne, the Riverlands and the Vale were just dead weight and all Sansa needed was a new dress and a bit of rape to get that long-coming empowerment. AFFC and ADWD are so dull...

Me too! Nothing gets my juices running like having my favourite fantasy series spoiled by an ill-conceived tv-show!

Imagine what they'll come up with next! Stay tuned for another episode of... As the Stomach Turns...

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To add to the point about Prima Nocta.... It's a legend and there is no proof of it ever existing.

As for the Bolton's....

They weren't allowed to flay but they could still have flayed banners? Doesn't make sense. Especially if the practice was outlawed.

If they were still flaying, it is highly unlikely word wouldn't have gotten out in 1,000 years.

So somehow the Bolton's are loyal for 1,000 years and then randomly start back on their old ways overnight? Makes no sense.

You're right, it's a huge inconsistency. After the PC-wars of 99 AC all sigils alluding to flaying, rape, castration, bestiality and necrophilia were banned. Well spotted!

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Plus I'm not sure that the show has delved into anybody other than Bran being able to warg. In the books they have the power to varying degrees, but in the show I don't recall any mention of it beyond Bran.

This.

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