WeaselPie Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Common misconception: Lyanna was inside the Tower of Joy The wiki is wrong. Straight from the wiki - Lyanna Stark pageNed found Lyanna inside the tower in a "bed of blood", dying. When Eddard recalls the conflict in a dream, there is an additional detail. While the combatants clash, Lyanna screams. The dream then switches to a storm of blue rose petals, blowing across a blood-streaked sky. It is uncertain if these details are accurate memories. Straight from the wiki - Showdown at the TOJ pageIn the tower Lyanna was dying and claimed a promise from Eddard just before she died. Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make eight cairns for the dead combatants. He brought Dawn to the Dayne castle at Starfall. His sister's body he took back north him so she could be buried with her brother Brandon and her father Rickard in the crypts of Winterfell Straight from the wiki - Tower of Joy pageThe tower was named the tower of joy by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. He used it as a hideout where he kept Lyanna Stark Footnote on all References AGOT Chapter 39 Eddard Actual text AGOT Chapter 39 EddardAs they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. No actual text exists placing Lyanna in the TOJ. Ned had a fever dream. Common misconception: Ned brought Lyanna's bones back from Dorne Straight from the wiki - Lyanna Stark pageBarbrey Dustin informs Theon that the tomb is not a cenotaph or empty tomb; Eddard transported the bones of Lyanna from Dorne Footnote Reference ADWD Chapter 41 Turncloak (Reek V) Actual text ADWD Chapter 41 Turncloak (Reek V)He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests. No actual text exists placing Lyanna in Dorne. "Back north" could be from anywhere. - So Spake Martin January 02, 2002 CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;) However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon? You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear. I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal. Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower? Certainly. - GRRM said this in 2002. The Tower of Joy only has a mention in Game of Thrones. Sorry to be logical but it has not been mentioned since, so it means we still do not know what actually happened there. We also obviously know it's a dream because in Ned's conscious recollections, Lyanna is whispering, not screaming. Plus, GRRM told us not to take it so literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Please don't. Let it go. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 From A World of Ice and Fire At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. I'll add the ref to the wiki ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 From A World of Ice and Fire At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy... ...or so it was reported to the new King. (Etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 From A World of Ice and Fire At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. I'll add the ref to the wiki ;) It has been argued for years that Lyanna was at the ToJ. Still no canon text to support it, and was on the wiki based on false information for years before World came out. Was Joff actually Robert's "fair son and heir" based on World? No, because the published novels trump everything else. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 So Ned didn't go to Starfall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 It has been argued for years that Lyanna was at the ToJ. Still no canon text to support it, and was on the wiki based on false information for years before World came out. Was Joff actually Robert's "fair son and heir" based on World? No, because the published novels trump everything else. cheers Check the source... A World of Ice and Fire, not The World of Ice and Fire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 It has been argued for years that Lyanna was at the ToJ. Still no canon text to support it, and was on the wiki based on false information for years before World came out. Was Joff actually Robert's "fair son and heir" based on World? No, because the published novels trump everything else. cheers You're confusing supporting with spoon feeding. Is it possible she was somewhere else? Yes. Does it make sense given the information we have? No. As far as the Fever Dream (an Old Dream, so not just a result of the fever) quote, I don't think the situation is exactly as presented. Obviously, the sky isn't blood streaked, and there wasn't a storm of rose petals. But the greater context of the dream is going to be as it occurred through Ned's eyes. So, the KG are going to highlight the vow they took, although maybe in a different way than presented in the dream. I doubt "and now it begins/ends" is part of the actual circumstances. But thematically, major events of that dreamed happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 :gets popcorn: (How is there not a 'gets popcorn' emoticon!?!?!?!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connartist92 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 No. Just no. I will concede that we can't be sure she was at the ToJ for the entire year she was missing... But she was definitely there when Ned and Howland Reed arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 LOL. WeaselPie is at it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 From A World of Ice and Fire At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. I'll add the ref to the wiki ;) *drops mic* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Nothing is canon all novels are unreliably narrated and everything must be kept "simple" while being "magical"...not in so many words but SSM. His world, his rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 SSM You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear. I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.This quote is interesting though, as it suggests that at least some elements of Ned's fever dream should not be taken literaly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Rickon I Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Best OP in General in....forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beefheart Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Good fucking grief. What is it with all of these threads trying to dispute the most text-based theory (besides maybe the Clegane theories) that we have? Is it just hipsterism, or people trying to look clever? Because all I see is "Hurr durr look at me, I'm sooo different and original". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Rickon I Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 No. Just no. I will concede that we can't be sure she was at the ToJ for the entire year she was missing... But she was definitely there when Ned and Howland Reed arrived.Can you back up your statement of fact with evidence? If so spill out all your evidence in your reply, thanks :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Rickon I Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Good fucking grief. What is it with all of these threads trying to dispute the most text-based theory (besides maybe the Clegane theories) that we have? Is it just hipsterism, or people trying to look clever? Because all I see is "Hurr durr look at me, I'm sooo different and original".Most text-based theory? What theory is that and what is your evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Most text-based theory?What theory is that and what is your evidence?I'm assuming you've seen R+L=J? Short of anything already spoon-fed confirmed, it has the best body of evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Rickon I Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 This quote is interesting though, as it suggests that at least some elements of Ned's fever dream should not be taken literaly.It is a dream, I'd caution (as GRRM does) taking any of it literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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