AFFC Reread Project - The Ironborn

[Happy Ent]

It may be because I live in Scandinavia, but I like the Ironborn chapters very much. They achieve the same degree of verisimilitude as the Westeros setting, without the medieval tropes. Just lots of water and salt and greyness. Seems to be November all the time there.

The opening of Iron Captain is a wonderful set piece, with the Iron Fleet arriving. Wonderful. Victarion himself is far less interesting than the Damphair, because he is not crazy. He also makes no jokes. That's very bad attitude for a Martin character, he should have taken a few hints out of Oberyn's playbook: when in a Martin novel, remember to be funny, else nobody will like you.

What comes across perfectly is his relative lack of ambition. Victarion actually likes just doing his job as a general. And he is damn good at it. But he is not a born ruler.

We get our first glimpse of Euron. Noted on re-read: When questioned by Asha, Euron denies to have killed King Balon, arguing that he does not command the wind. His crewmen confirm. But... two Ironborn chapters later we will learn that he can do exactly that. He has shadow mages from Asshai who have mastered Lvl 8 Ãœber Spell of Wind Control +3, which they use to get the Iron Fleet to the Shield Isles. The same spell that Mel will use to get Stannis North. So Euron lies.

The kingsmoot itself, with the different wacko captains, and Asha's speech ("Your son died for this!") and Euron's revelation—it's all good. When I first read this in Dragon magazine, I was quite speechless.

Arboreal perspective: Euron makes fun of people who worship trees. Not a good sign. He will probably die screaming. Asha gives the captains the best gifts, including pine cones. (Instead of useless metal-stuff.) But apparently the humans don't see that tree products are much better than gold, and she is rejected. I am translating the entire epic into Old Entish, and this detail will be very difficult to explain to my kin. Why would anybody not want to conquer a shore full of pine cones? (Anyway, Old Entish being not the most concise of languages, it will take a while before I get to that chapter anyway. This week I am at "Dance with me, then!".)

Timeline. Nothing new. I already decided when the Kingsmoot is based on The Prophet. Only confirmation is that Robb is indeed dead, and the Ironborn know about it.

[dadof4]

Hardly any posts on these chapters yet, in stark contrast to the Jaime & Cersei ones last week ...

Thought I would post about Victarion's salt wife (hereafter VSW), seeing I am of the opinion that there is a twist or two yet to be revealed here.

From Theon's description of the institution, I got the clear impression that salt wives are basically slave concubines taken in raids and given no choice of who their salt husband is. If this is the case, then VSW may not have had much say in the matter when Euron decided to take her to bed, even if he did not use force (or imply he would use force if she resisted). In that case Victarion's reaction seems rather extreme. He might be expected to be angry over Euron stealing his property, and might decide to kill VSW or throw her out as damaged goods, but I would imagine that Euron giving Victarion a replacement or two or some sort of equivalent would be sufficient recompense.

So either the salt wife relationship is a bit more equal than was implied earlier, or the Victarion/VSW relationship was a rough parallel to the Tyrion/Shae one; in that Victarion had fallen in love, and VSW was not so stupid as to let him know what she really thought.

Incidentally, how did Victarion find out about Euron and VSW? Did Euron just openly boast of it?

The other point that struck me rereading was that Euron is significantly different to the other Iron Islanders and that there is a widespread distrust of him as a result. They did elect him, but I got the impression that if he gets into serious trouble they are likely to just shrug their shoulders and quietly go home.

Hmm, although I think your suggestion that Victarion had fallen in love could be part of it, I think Euron's actions would have been enough to set Victarion off. We get the impression that Euron is despised by his siblings. He appears to be a real jerk of a brother. We don't know yet why all the reasons for the severe dislike, but it seems likely that what he did to VSW is one of a series of things that he did to tick off his bros. I suspect that they all hated him since they were kids. Probably he bullied his younger sibs, if not worse.

When I reread the section, I thought of Achilles reaction to a very similar taking of a concubine by Agamemnon (If I remember the Iliad correctly, been a while since I read it) . In the same way, Achilles' anger wasn't so much about the loss of the female slave, but about Agamemnon exerting his power over Achilles in a bullying manner, causing a loss of face by Achilles.

[cteresa]

I am not Scandinavian and I really do not like the iron islands, even if they show just about the only proper appreciation of salt cod in all of GRRM´s oeuvre (hmm.....)

A note, Euron does NOT deny killing Balon, he replies with a question instead which is meant to sound obviously false but of course is not.

I like Victarion as well, I like how he never seems to assume he will be king, and even the wife slaying seems to be under circunstances which do not show him as unfeeling. He was sobbing while hitting her, he did not sleep with another woman since. Arguably it seems probably he did care for her even if such was life in the Iron Islands. I wonder about her, if she was that willing to cheat Victarion or what circunstances were, Euron laughed and left after her killing, this does not make him look at all likeable. If her cared for her, laughing at her death is unlikely, if he did not, sleeping with his brother´s wife is not that honorable.

Victarion´s cloak sounds pretty interesting and not very like the Iron Islands! 9 layers of cloth of gold, stitched in the shape of a greyjoy.

A great line from Euron, with GRRM a lot of the unlikeable despicable characters got the best lines "but I have served a thousand [Gods]. From Ib to Asshai, when men see *my* sails, they pray!"

Niece-nephew marriage does not seem to be taboo in the Iron Isles - historical it was legal here, though not sure it still is.

On Aeron´s chapters, the whole bit about Nagga and the grey king is fascinating, lot of bits about dragons which is making me so eager for a dance with dragons!

I loved Farwynd lord of Lonely Light and of suspected skinchangers, though without any real reason. Maybe it is just the "coolness" factor of the very exotic even by Westerosi standards.

Ah, think I caught a slight anachronysm or what would be anachronistic if this were real Europe and not GRRM´s playground, knitting used derogatorily as something female. What I heard was that in medieval europe knitting was a male thing and restricted to guilds. Knitting became more widespread and associated to old ladies at a later date, maybe with yarn becoming more available ( this is interesting, will check) And in a fishing society, men would need to mend their nets, which would probably be quite similar to knitting - not that we see the iron men fishing much but presumably they must when not at war.

More neon banners about the meaning for a feast for crows, and heavy pointers to Euron being a major player for the series.

An ominous last line, the rusted hinge. I might be convinceable of Euron abusing Aeron, GRRM does make this last line standout. But still waiting to see.

[Lupigis]

It may be because I live in Scandinavia, but I like the Ironborn chapters very much. They achieve the same degree of verisimilitude as the Westeros setting, without the medieval tropes. Just lots of water and salt and greyness. Seems to be November all the time there.

.............

Timeline. Nothing new. I already decided when the Kingsmoot is based on The Prophet. Only confirmation is that Robb is indeed dead, and the Ironborn know about it.

Being Scandinavian hasn't really done much for the ironborn for me. The kingsmoot chapter was good but would have been a much better read if I had had the sense not to read the spoilers on this board. No more spoilers for me!

Happy Ent, when you have time, could you add the information about the timing of these chapters to the timeline thread?

[Happy Ent]

Being Scandinavian hasn't really done much for the ironborn for me.

Ah, but then you are living at the Baltic Sea, not the North Sea. The Baltic is for sissies.

The Ironborn chapters remind me of North Frisia in November, which my parents always seemed to think was a really good idea for a Sunday trip. Or of our bike holiday last Summer. (The North Sea coast can pretend it's November even in late July.) I am sure people from Scotland feel even more at home.

ETA: Jaime III, Cersei IV, Iron Captain, and Drowned Man added to timeline.

[Lupigis]

Ah, but then you are living at the Baltic Sea, not the North Sea. The Baltic is for sissies.

It's even worse than that! I grew up miles from the coast, by a small lake in a forested area. "My" Ironmen Vikings sailed east from woody shores across a brackish inland sea and followed the rivers to Kiev and Byzantium. Perhaps it's not surprising that I don't feel much at home in these chapters.

[Happy Ent]

A note, Euron does NOT deny killing Balon, he replies with a question instead which is meant to sound obviously false but of course is not.

In any case, by The Reaver all the Iron Fleet must know that Euron controls the winds. Ergo they must be able to figure out that he did kill Balon. I guess by then nobody cares much.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I rather like those chapter. It is interesting how GRRM managed to make so outwardly unpleasant people as Victarion and Aeron (especially the latter) interesting and somewhat sympathetic POVs.

I do't see why Victarion shouldn't fell in love with his salt wife. Such things happen, after all. Nagga's ribs are sure intriguing. i wnder if they are random geological formation or perhaps real bones of something Once again I wonder if there is some truth about all those ancients legends, and if so, what it is.

The kingsmoot itself is really great scene,m although doesn't it ensure that the last candidate always wins? Sure his chances are best.

I wonder is there is something more to Euron's nihilism. Can his words that Westeros is dying and they will feast on its corpse mean that he knows about the Others and even is somehow in league with them? If he really knows something about black magic - which seems sure - this is certainly possible. He also tells something about coming night in The Reaver chapter.

Asha speech is really well made. She is the only reasonable acndidate, and she could even win if not for this damned horn.

[Thynessa Reed]

Ah, think I caught a slight anachronysm or what would be anachronistic if this were real Europe and not GRRM´s playground, knitting used derogatorily as something female. What I heard was that in medieval europe knitting was a male thing and restricted to guilds.ine standout. But still waiting to see.

Yes it's interesting about the knitting. Sailors are famous knitters - gives them something to do apart from dancing hornpipes, drinking rum and hoisting the mainbrace.

[Ashara Stark]

Few additions:

The crannogmen, which the ironborn call bog devils, are attacking Victarion's men at Moat Cailin even though Robb is already dead.

Asha left her ship at another part of Old Wyk, she did not anchored it at Old Wyk. It suggests she prepared everything so as to be ready to run away if Euron was crowned king.

From the list of sea animals the Farwynds are supposed to warg it seems skinchangers only can warg into mammals and birds (Orell's eagle). It is likely to be related to the level of intelligence of the animal.

The Farwynds talk about a kind of Garden of Eden beyond the Sunset Sea. As I think Dany will arrive to Westeros by the west, that sounds interesting.

Hilmar the Cunning took Red Rain from a Warrior Son. What was a Warrior Son doing with a Valyrian sword?

When I reread the section, I thought of Achilles reaction to a very similar taking of a concubine by Agamemnon

I thought the same, dadof4. I think Victarion was resented because Euron stole his property, not because he felt anything for his wife.

[Old Zog]

The kingsmoot itself is really great scene, although doesn't it ensure that the last candidate always wins? Sure his chances are best.

Yes the last candidate wins, but only in the same sense that you find whatever you're looking for in the last place you look. It takes timing to play the kingsmoot game well. Declare too soon and you run the risk of being dismissed in favor of better-qualified potential candidates. Declare too late and you may not get to declare at all, if someone before you is chosen.

[cteresa]

I thought the same, dadof4. I think Victarion was resented because Euron stole his property, not because he felt anything for his wife.

I disagree with that, I get the sense that Victarion realizes that in his society one should not highly value salt wives, but details like he not having slept with another woman since, sobbing while killing her, and carrying her on his arms ( and that being on his mind) to dispose of her body do give me the feeling he did care for her. More than his society or himself ( because people are molded for his society) would value or voice, but all through this chapter the feeling she seems to be on his mind as a person not as a slight like a stolen vase.

[Jon Targaryen]

For the Iron Captain

Perhaps Euron is engaged in some sort of magic to keep his youth. Then again, he has only been gone three years.

"Just so." Euron has picked up some of the flavor of the Free Cities.

It would be hard for Iron Islanders to accept a King's Hand but I don't think it impossible.

I love how Martin gets into the head of each of his characters. Victarion's chapter is very matter of fact and straightforward like Victarion himself.

For the Drowned Man

The Grey King must have been from the Age of Heroes.

I once thought Gylbert Farwynd might be the man with grey lips smiling in Dany's house of the Undying vision because of his eyes, which were "bright" for the man in the vision. But "grey lips smiling" just has to be a Greyjoy.

I would pay the price of a DVD just to see this scene. Just to see Euron's man blow the horn and Euron's speech. One of my favorite parts of the book.

[Happy Ent]

The Reaver

An insanely good chapter. The only instance of Feast with grand action, but there is characterisation and plotting galore, too.

It is good to see Victarion doing what he is good at. He admits as much—he isn't made for words at a Kingsmoot. Obedience comes naturally to him.

But man, does he hate Euron. Hardly a page passes where he doesn't fantasize about killing the Crow's Eye. But he doesn't, for a convenient (for GRRM) religious taboo. He even thinks if he can make Nute the Barber kill Euron without risking damnation himself.

Who received which lordship went over my head. Does anybody have the allegiances handy? Who stood for whom at the Kingsmoot, and who gets to be Lord of what now?

DuskyWoman is a gift from Euron, and as Vic says later, all his gifts are poisoned. She is mute, and Victarion shares all his plans and secrets with her. Bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if Euron can hear everything that is said in her presence, using some Warlock skillz.

Speaking of those, I believe Euron has used blood magic to make his fleet move with favourable winds. I've said this before, but Melisandre knows the same spell and moved Stannis fleet north a few months ago.

Did I say months?

Timeline

It's after the kingsmoot, and before the next Cersei chapter. That's all we know. But I assume the Tyrell plea for help comes very quickly after the Shield Isles fell (the ravens were allowed to fly, we are told). So no more than a week before the next Cersei chapter. I put down 3 May, 301 for now. The last Ironborn chapter was 16 December, 300, the Kingsmoot. More than 4 months ago. Is that plausible? Who knows. The Damphair has gone preaching, Lord Blacktyde was carved up, Asha went missing, all still in December, I guess. Then give Euron a few months to get his kingdom in order before he starts his invasion. ::shrugs::

Back to Euron. It sounds as if he controls the warlocks with his magical eye. (I can't find the quote.) I'd like to know more.

Also, as somebody else observed months ago, Euron may be the anti-Bran. In the bedroom scene, he tells us that he dreamt he could fly when he was a child. The 3-eyed Crow may well have taught him to open his third eye (whatever that means), but Euron went mad and the crow abandoned him. So instead of a messianic saviour of mandkind against the Great Other, Euron is "just" a madman with leet powers, an early beta test version of the 3-Eyed Crow that went sour.

Another rap over Jon's fingers: he sulked because he was made to not sit at the dais for one occasion, poor boy. Here, the bastard girl serves the food.

[Ser Gendry of Hollow Hill]

Back to Euron. It sounds as if he controls the warlocks with his magical eye. (I can't find the quote.) I'd like to know more.

Also, as somebody else observed months ago, Euron may be the anti-Bran. In the bedroom scene, he tells us that he dreamt he could fly when he was a child. The 3-eyed Crow may well have taught him to open his third eye (whatever that means), but Euron went mad and the crow abandoned him. So instead of a messianic saviour of mandkind against the Great Other, Euron is "just" a madman with leet powers, an early beta test version of the 3-Eyed Crow that went sour.

It is probable that Euron has a third eye too. I am thinking third eye is just the ability to warg++ like Bran was doing, be able to observe and communicate( in some cases act) thru trees, animals, birds and other humans. Naturally Bran is a 3-eyed wolf and Euron is a 3-eyed kraken and 3-eyed crow would be a black brother with third eye So 3-eyed crow probably had nothing to with Euron but only with Bran.

That brings us to ealier lines in your post.

DuskyWoman is a gift from Euron, and as Vic says later, all his gifts are poisoned. She is mute, and Victarion shares all his plans and secrets with her. Bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if Euron can hear everything that is said in her presence, using some Warlock skillz.

Victarion better watch out.

[rpthomps]

It is probable that Euron has a third eye too. I am thinking third eye is just the ability to warg++ like Bran was doing, be able to observe and communicate( in some cases act) thru trees, animals, birds and other humans. Naturally Bran is a 3-eyed wolf and Euron is a 3-eyed kraken and 3-eyed crow would be a black brother with third eye So 3-eyed crow probably had nothing to with Euron but only with Bran.

I am not sure about that. They call Euron crow-eye too.

[Mo Sneachd]

I wouldn't be surprised if Euron can hear everything that is said in her presence, using some Warlock skillz.

With any other character I would possibly call this an unlikely theory, but I won't put anything past Euron. From what we already know, it may easily be. He certainly has far more powers than is obvious, especially if Victarion with all his hate is somehow worried and wary ['It was dangerous to speak so to the Crow's Eye' concerning Asha confronting him].

Who received which lordship went over my head. Does anybody have the allegiances handy? Who stood for whom at the Kingsmoot, and who gets to be Lord of what now?

I was too occupied with musing about how clever it is that he grants Nute a lordship ("And now he is stealing my men") to compare those chapters. I'll do yet another reread with that focus.

But man, does he hate Euron. Hardly a page passes where he doesn't fantasize about killing the Crow's Eye. But he doesn't, for a convenient (for GRRM) religious taboo. He even thinks if he can make Nute the Barber kill Euron without risking damnation himself.

That lordship comes in quite timely indeed; apart from that, I cannot really see Victarion as the kind of man who will have others get their hands dirty for him. He will not risk the Drowned God's wrath by striking himself, that much is sure, but I find it difficult to imagine that he would bribe Nute or any other man to attempt murder [which, given Euron's options, would probably fail anyway]. The fact that his obedience and piety overcomes his hate is quite a fascinating characterisation too.

I like the Bran-parallel-theory a lot. Together with the non-smiling eye, the 'darker moods' and the whole meddling with magic and Eveningshade it makes Euron quite an interesting character, despite his underlying black-pirate-villain concept.

I still do not know what to make of the ending. Does Euron trust Victarion's obedience to overcome his hate, is he making a mistake, or does he actually want Victarion to steal his to-be-wife?

This was easily my favourite chapter in the book.

EDIT: Quick in the morning reread resulted in the following Lordships:

Ser Harras Harlaw - Lord of Greyshield [one of Asha's champions; plus now Hotho is probably going to be Lord of Harlaw]

Andrik the Unsmiling - Lord of Southshield ['the strong right arm of Dunsten Drumm']

Maron Volmark - Lord of Greenshield [noted in the Appendix as one of Victarion's captains and supporters; related to Black Harren via his mother's side]

Nute the Barber - Lord of Oakenshield [one of Victarion's champions]

I'll stop doubting Euron's wits now.

[A wilding]

The lordships Euron distributes seem to be to consolidate his rule, by buying off men who might otherwise become catalysts for disaffection. However I am not sure how this fits in with the Reader saying that Euron let ravens go so that Highgarden hears what has happened as soon as possible, or with Victarion's thought that Euron's gifts are always poisoned. Clearly Euron is up to something, or more likely several things, but I don't see what at present.

Other than what you have all covered already, the other thing that really struck me in this chapter was a bit relating to Lord Hewett's wife and daughters being made to waitress naked. In a typical GRRM touch we are told that the youngest - a girl of 10 - cried briefly but was comforted by her mother who helped her unlace. This one sentence dispels any possibility of an erotic fantasy and makes it impossible for any normal person not to feel a strong sympathy for their plight. Even Victarion feels sympathy.

This also gives another view of bastards in Westeros. Lord Hewett's bastard daughter is only too happy to take her revenge on her father, her father's wife, and their children as soon as an opportunity presents itself. It helps show why bastards are distrusted.

[Mo Sneachd]

This also gives another view of bastards in Westeros. Lord Hewett's bastard daughter is only too happy to take her revenge on her father, her father's wife, and their children as soon as an opportunity presents itself. It helps show why bastards are distrusted.

Well, but she was made to serve tables before, and in a household with, what, seven girls a bastard would have a very nasty life. Or could have, we don't know that.

I would rather call it a vicious circle -bastards are treated badly which makes them hate their 'family' and take their revenge when they get the chance, which leads to bastards being distrusted and treated badly, which...

[Grant Dempsey]

The lordships Euron distributes seem to be to consolidate his rule, by buying off men who might otherwise become catalysts for disaffection. However I am not sure how this fits in with the Reader saying that Euron let ravens go so that Highgarden hears what has happened as soon as possible,

Of course, originally Euron Crow's Eye seemed to intend to leave the new lords of the Shield Islands to defend them themselves and take the rest of the ironborn to Slaver's Bay. Perhaps he allowed the ravens to get to Highgarden so that they would be preoccupied with defending themselves against the might of the Reach in his absence, rather than have any opportunity to consider or conspire rebellion.