Eddard in Wonderland

[J. Stargaryen]

Good read. Glad you finally posted it. :)

[Lady Darry]

Kingmonkey

I was wondering how would you connect Winter Cometh and Celtic maiden-kidnapping myth. It’s kinda obvious that GRRM was influenced with both, maybe we could tie both stories together and get a explanation for what happened?

I am not familiar with Arthurian mythology, but as far as I can understand Melwas was in love with Guinevere, he kidnapped her and then Lancelot saved her and she was eventually returned to Arthur. So does that mean that Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna and he kidnapped her against her will and he did rape her? We could say GRRM changed dynamic between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but it seems that the whole story is very close to events in the book, so maybe relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar were similar to that between Guinevere and Melwas? I find the whole thing very confusing…

What I found interesting in Winter Cometh is that Sir Arthur the Dane wants Reigor to be a king and they are loyal to him -so it seems he thinks highly of Reigor (or is he just a better alternative to a Mad King?)? It seems Reigor and Leona had an OK relationship (?). But on the other hand we can’t know for sure what happened between Reigor and Leona. Sir Arthur the Dane and Oswald Weynt could stayed loyal to Reigor no matter what, we just don’t know enough. So, how does Reigor and Leona story connect with Melwas and Guinevere and how it is connected with Lyanna and Rhaegar?

[Kingmonkey]

My apologies Lady Darry, Winter Cometh was just a bit of silliness I put together to lighten things up over on the R+L=J thread. I post silly stories there sometimes, it wasn't my intention for anyone to take it seriously!

The Melwas story is of course real, as are all the associated myths and sources mentioned in the essay here. The nature of the kidnapping varies from telling to telling, and I would consider the ToJ narrative in ASOIAF to be one more retelling of an obviously ancient story, just as the Melwas story was. The idea that the "kidnapped" maiden went along willingly is not an uncommon possibility in these myths. I would consider it a distinct possibility for ASOIAF, but I don't believe we should try to draw firm conclusions from the source material. GRRM is doing what all good storytellers do and using a common mythic narrative for his own purposes.

I believe that the clear similarities between GRRM's ToJ story and these older stories indicates that he was well aware of these older tales and was intentionally borrowing the symbolism. Probably the most important thing to take away from GRRM's use of this story element is that he's harking back to a mythic treatment of the clash and conciliation of summer and winter.

When trying to judge whether or not Lyanna's "kidnapping" was what it sounds like to modern ears, it's worth considering that historically, "kidnapping" was a fairly common method of elopement. There are late medieval English laws that specifically deal with consensual abduction, which sounds very odd until you realise that the offence was considered in those cases to be against the father / husband rather than the woman. For the woman to be a willing participant would not necessarily mean it would not be considered a kidnapping. When we hear that Lyanna was kidnapped, we hear this from the perspective of those from whom she was "taken". How willing she was to go with Rhaegar is something we're just going to have to wait and see.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

King Monkey,

Thanks for this very fascinating and thorough analysis of two subjects I have great interest in!

Given Martin’s general fondness for the history and legends of Britain, I’ve no doubt that many of the motifs and archetypes present in his story can be traced back to those isles. However, given the common roots of many Indo-European myths and legends, no doubt the influences at times seem broader and are, in the end, a testament to the adage that “there are no new stories, only new ways of making them felt.” I should emphasize that in my opinion Martin’s inspiration does not take the form of one for one correlations, that is there is no single “Arthur figure” and no direct copy of a single myth or legend. We don’t look for straight lines, but rather meandering equivalencies.

Several things stood out for me in your analysis. First, the abduction myth. As you so kindly noted, I have done some writing on this myself and believe it to be one of the primary Arthurian influences in a story that is positively rife with homages to Arthurian legend and Celtic mythology more broadly. One thing I’d like to add to your discussion of the Preiddiau Annwfn is regarding the presence of a cauldron of plenty. The most famous cauldron in Celtic mythology belonged to Cerridwen, who appeared in many guises from sorceress to goddess to fey, depending on the source and interpretation. There is reason to believe the name Cerridwen shares an etymological root with Gwenhyfar and she is sometimes associated with the threefold goddess, as is Gwenhyfar. Fast forward to modern interpretations of the “cauldron” (which can be equated with the Holy Grail as you noted) and you may begin to sense the direction I’m going. Many of us are familiar with The DaVinci Code, which I reference here because one of the few reasonable conclusions to be taken from that stew of symbols and conspiracy is the equation of the cauldron or grail with a womb. If you understand the cauldron broadly to symbolize renewal, interpreting it as a womb makes a lot of sense. And if you equate Lyanna with Gwenhyfar, who in turn is related to Cerridwen, why then this cauldron of plenty or renewal may in fact have been symbolically present at the Tower! We could then go on the discuss that both the Holy Grail and the cauldron of plenty reputedly had the power to raise the dead, and that Lyanna’s child may in fact be a reborn hero. (We could also go on to discuss Bran the Blessed, the Fisher King and their connections with cauldrons, grails and Starks, though sadly not the Tower of Joy and thus probably more a rabbit hole than the present topic allows.)

Second, we have this:

This allows us to look at different answers to a lot of difficulties people have with the sequence. Why were the 3KG so unwilling to negotiate? Perhaps there was a negotiation. Why did they stand outside the tower rather than defending the tower? It's a symbolic dream, there's no reason to assume it happened that way at all. Why would they not even let Ned see Lyanna? Well perhaps they did let Ned in, and the fight happened later¹. The they who found Ned holding dead Lyanna might have included the Kingsguard, and perhaps the promises that Ned made to his dying sister were why Ned and the Kingsguard could not come to an agreement, and why they had to fight²

If we apply the idea of symbolism, we can resolve many questions, reconcile Martin’s comments and as you said, still arrive at more or less the same conclusion regarding the dialogue. The main difference would be in the interpretation of the timeline which as you point out in your footnote, resolves the issue of Ned’s memories of the KG (especially Dayne) with his memories of his sister’s death.

In terms of interpretation, I like this next bit a lot:

Even casting the language of the dream as symbolic, it must still be assumed that the symbolism isn't random. Interpretation of the lines can hint at further meaning. For example, I find it interesting to contrast Whent's "Woe to the Usurper if we had been," with Hightower's “Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells." Whent is talking about the Trident, where “the Usurper” fought and killed Rhaegar. It's only Hightower who speaks directly of preserving Aerys' reign. Whent and Dayne are Rhaegar's sworn swords, and we know from Jaime's recollections that Rhaegar was planning “changes” after the rebellion was put down. Hightower tells Jamie that the King's Guard do not question even a mad king. Hightower was not part of the original group at the ToJ, having been sent there by Aerys to fetch Rhaegar to fight at the Trident. We may have a hint here that while the three King's Guards were acting in unison here, they were not necessarily in agreement over the longer term.

While not necessarily on the topic of mythological or even symbolic interpretation, the observation that Whent and Hightower had different agendas in their replies is outstanding. It upholds everything we know from the main series and from TWoIaF. And it also underlines the fact that Hightower had an agenda completely unrelated to that of Rhaegar’s companions and implied co-conspirators. If this man stayed at the Tower, it was through a sense of duty in keeping with his vows and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Obviously no other course of action would have been acceptable to a man so beholden to his duty that he supported the reign of Aerys, whom he was sworn to protect, to the bitter end.

Finally, on the subject of Persephone and kidnapped maidens I simply wanted to say that once upon a time I contributed an essay to the Pawn to Player project reimagining Sansa as a grail maiden/Persephone figure. Since there has also been considerable discussion on the similarities between Sansa and her aunt Lyanna, I thought I’d toss out this added layer of analysis to further illustrate the complexity of the story Martin is telling. As Rodrik the Reader reminded Asha in AFfC:

…history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging

Stories within stories, and the wheel of history… studying the mythological inspirations for ASoIaF certainly proves the truth of that simple statement.

[LmL]

Terrific read, excellent work. Going to re-read and comment when I have more time, but wanted to give the hat-tip here. Bravo, ser.

[Kingmonkey]

I should emphasize that in my opinion Martin’s inspiration does not take the form of one for one correlations, that is there is no single “Arthur figure” and no direct copy of a single myth or legend. We don’t look for straight lines, but rather meandering equivalencies.

I couldn't agree more, and there's a danger in assuming too much when we see a correlation. There was a discussion in another thread as to whether Euron or Bloodraven was an Odin analogue; the answer of course is that they both are, a bit.

One thing I’d like to add to your discussion of the Preiddiau Annwfn is regarding the presence of a cauldron of plenty. The most famous cauldron in Celtic mythology belonged to Cerridwen, who appeared in many guises from sorceress to goddess to fey, depending on the source and interpretation. There is reason to believe the name Cerridwen shares an etymological root with Gwenhyfar and she is sometimes associated with the threefold goddess, as is Gwenhyfar. Fast forward to modern interpretations of the “cauldron” (which can be equated with the Holy Grail as you noted) and you may begin to sense the direction I’m going.

Assuming the -wen ending is a corrupted -gwen rather than -van I presume? Ceridwen is an odd figure -- Skene believed her to be a late recension, I believe -- who may have a common derivation with Creiddylad, who's the kidnapped maiden in the Culwch ac Olwen variant. Preiddiau has the cauldron being warmed by the breath of nine maidens, too. There's obviously some tradition of the cauldron of plenty being held by women, and the seizing of the cauldron as a fertility symbol may well distant cousin of the kidnapping myth. Rhaegar placing a crown of roses in Lyanna's (also a very obvious feminine fertility symbol) and the Bael the Bard tale's correlation of a blue rose with the abduction of a stark Maiden plays right into this theme, of course.

(We could also go on to discuss Bran the Blessed, the Fisher King and their connections with cauldrons, grails and Starks, though sadly not the Tower of Joy and thus probably more a rabbit hole than the present topic allows.)

It's rather hard to believe that the Stark "Bran" names are a coincidence, particularly when you consider our Bran is crippled. In the Arthurian romances, the Fisher King's injury is the result of the "dolorous stroke" -- a lance wound to the thighs (an obvious euphemism). In ASOIAF we have a slightly different version of the lance-to-the-thighs symbol, with Lyanna not Bran as the recipient. There's an intriguing similarity in the naming of a "dolorous stroke" and a "moment when all the smiles died". The mythic consequence of this lance to the thighs is the wasteland, the loss of the king's fertility causing the loss of the land's. Ned's line may be telling us more about what happened than simply a sudden change in the mood at Harrenhal. Deeper rabbit hole indeed.

Finally, on the subject of Persephone and kidnapped maidens I simply wanted to say that once upon a time I contributed an essay to the Pawn to Player project reimagining Sansa as a grail maiden/Persephone figure. Since there has also been considerable discussion on the similarities between Sansa and her aunt Lyanna, I thought I’d toss out this added layer of analysis to further illustrate the complexity of the story Martin is telling.

Great essay. I was particularly taken by your observation of Sansa's rejection of the pomegranate seeds, and the correlation of Winterfell with the Grail Castle. A possibility there that the return of Sansa to Winterfell may be a rather more important event than the show runners think -- symbolically, and perhaps magically, the restoration of fertility to the wasteland. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell indeed.

[Winterbowl]

Kingmonkey would you regard this as strong evidence that Lyanna was kidnapped? I read it that way, but obviously nothing is set in stone here.

[Frey family reunion]

First off excellent thread. There are a few posters here that really are a treasure trove of information and you certainly appear one (along with Lady Gwynhyfvar, whose posts on the Arthurian myths I've also found extremely educational).

I'm also glad to see that we're starting to question Ned's dream about the events of his battle with the Kingsguards which segued to Lyanna's death bed. I'm glad that we're starting to question at least the chronology of the two events. Now I would go one step further and question the geographic location of the two events as well. I think chaining Lyanna's deathbed to the tower of joy is tenuous at best. In fact it appears only to be linked by Ned's dream. Dreams are interesting creatures they are not constrained by chronology nor are they constrained by geography. Events can be jumbled in time and location fairly easily.

Now I understand the immediate connections with the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the tales of Lancelot and Guinevere. And yes, the "tower of joy" (not capitalized btw in the books) does immediately call to mind the Joyous Guard, but in my extremely limited understanding of the myths, the Joyous Guard isn't really heavily connected with the various Guinevere abduction myths is it?

You mentioned Melwas, King of the Summer Country, as one of the early culprits in the Guinevere abduction stories. My favorite cliff notes, Wikipedia, mentions that Melwas carries Guinevere off to his stronghold in Glastonbury. Now researching, Glastonbury a bit and it apparently has quite the lively back story. It's been associated with Avolon, the Holy Grail story, and Guinevere's abduction. It's surrounded by low lying areas which are the subject to tidal floods. It's also known for it's Glastonbury Abbey. Joseph of Arimathea was said to have taken a boat to Glastonbury over the flooded lands surrounding the town, stuck his staff into the ground where it flowered into the Glastonbury Thorn tree. Joseph was also said to have been the guardian of the Holy Grail in Glastonbury. The Glastonbury Tor is a hill topped by the remains of a tower church.

The reason I'm bringing up Glastonbury, is that it seems to me iMartin has given us a location that fits many of the elements of the town where Guinevere in the earliest tales may have been brought. He's describing the Quiet Isle along with the surrounding towns of Maidenpool or possibly Saltpans.

Turning to the events preceding Robert's Rebellion, if there was an abduction of Lyanna, and if Lyanna indeed was abducted in the vicinity of Harrenhal, and if one of her abductors was Rhaegar's former squire, Myles Mooton,, then Maidenpool would be a very likely destination to have taken her. Much like Glastonbury Tor, Maidenpool's castle sits on a hill. Later in our story, the Lord of Maidenpool is locked in the tower cell by Lord Tarly. (Likewise Saltpans has a lord who has voluntarily locked himself into his tower and won't come out).

But more significantly the Quiet Isle, home of basically an abbey of monks and surrounded by tidal flats, seems to really fit the bill of the land where Joseph of Arimathea was said to have sailed to over the flooded waters. And curiously enough, during Brienne's journey to the Quiet Isle she is shown to the cottages that are specifically set aside for the very rare occurrence when women visit the Isle:

"We have some modest cottages set aside for the women who visit us, be they noble ladies or common village girls," said the Elder Brother, "They are not oft used, but we keep them clean and dry."

So, still in keeping with Guinevere's abduction story, has Martin shown us where Lyanna was truly imprisoned? Was she locked away in Mooton's castle on the hill? When her health deteriorated (or when she went into labor) was she brought to the adjacent Quiet Isle? Where those that would have delivered her child and tried to tend to her illness all just so happen to take a vow of silence? Was this where Eddard Stark found her? Did Eddard's journey to the tower of joy take place after her death as opposed to before?

[Kingmonkey]

Kingmonkey would you regard this as strong evidence that Lyanna was kidnapped? I read it that way, but obviously nothing is set in stone here.

I would be very cautious about using any parallel as evidence for a matter of fine detail like that.

Having said that, I think it's important to keep in mind that the claims "Lyanna was kidnapped" and "Lyanna went willingly" are not mutually exclusive. Lyanna was an eligible daughter of a noble, and betrothed to another noble. For another nobleman to make off with her would likely be considered kidnapping, whether done with or without her consent. In the middle ages in England, there are examples of people being prosecuted for kidnap when they eloped, and of women arranging their own kidnapping.

I think it is telling that in some versions of the kidnapping story the kidnapped maiden favours the kidnapper, in others not. The immediate context we get the most famous versions of this story is in the Arthurian romances, where the idea of "courtly love" was very fundamental in the story-telling. For the kidnapped maiden to have been a willing participant in her kidnapping works better in this context of romantic adventure. Is that then what GRRM is getting at? Maybe, maybe not. It's just as likely he was thinking about how these romanticised stories often have a rather darker basis, and that "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" etc. is an in-world product of this same kind of romanticising of a darker truth.

If there is any direct parallel here, I would say that in the myths the degree to which the kidnapping is as non-consensual as it first appears is questionable, and that is indeed a question that GRRM seems to want us to ask ourselves about Lyanna.

[Kingmonkey]

Now I understand the immediate connections with the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the tales of Lancelot and Guinevere. And yes, the "tower of joy" (not capitalized btw in the books) does immediately call to mind the Joyous Guard, but in my extremely limited understanding of the myths, the Joyous Guard isn't really heavily connected with the various Guinevere abduction myths is it?

The Joyous Garde occurs in the most famous telling of that story, but it's essentially a detail added in that story. The question we should ask is why GRRM came up with a name like "Tower of Joy" (the lack of capitals is simply a minor grammatical omission -- "It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy..." ). While the Joyous Gard isn't connected with other versions of this myth, it's connected to this myth and little else. Mallory has Lancelot lend the castle to Tristan and Isolde for a while, and the Tristan story closely mirrors the Guinevere abduction story. Thus the abduction myth doesn't imply the Joyous Gard, but the Joyous Gard does imply the abduction myth.

Turning to the events preceding Robert's Rebellion, if there was an abduction of Lyanna, and if Lyanna indeed was abducted in the vicinity of Harrenhal, and if one of her abductors was Rhaegar's former squire, Myles Mooton,, then Maidenpool would be a very likely destination to have taken her. Much like Glastonbury Tor, Maidenpool's castle sits on a hill. Later in our story, the Lord of Maidenpool is locked in the tower cell by Lord Tarly. (Likewise Saltpans has a lord who has voluntarily locked himself into his tower and won't come out).

But more significantly the Quiet Isle, home of basically an abbey of monks and surrounded by tidal flats, seems to really fit the bill of the land where Joseph of Arimathea was said to have sailed to over the flooded waters. And curiously enough, during Brienne's journey to the Quiet Isle she is shown to the cottages that are specifically set aside for the very rare occurrence when women visit the Isle:

So, still in keeping with Guinevere's abduction story, has Martin shown us where Lyanna was truly imprisoned? Was she locked away in Mooton's castle on the hill? When her health deteriorated (or when she went into labor) was she brought to the adjacent Quiet Isle? Where those that would have delivered her child and tried to tend to her illness all just so happen to take a vow of silence? Was this where Eddard Stark found her? Did Eddard's journey to the tower of joy take place after her death as opposed to before?

You raise some interesting thoughts, but you leave us with some difficult questions. The Quiet Isle is quite a long way out of the way for what we know of Eddard's travels at the time, and why would he have gone to the ToJ at all, if that was the case? Sure, we can't be certain that Lyanna was at the ToJ, but I've yet to see any good reason to doubt it -- and given the name, this parallel does suggest she was.

I think there's a far better real-world parallel to the Quiet Isle than Glastonbury, and that's St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, or possibly Mont Saint-Michel in Normandy. St. Michael's Mount is a tidal island, reachable on foot at low tide but requiring a ferry at high tide, with a monastery on top. Interestingly St.Michael's Mount has an association with Joseph of Arimathea too, as local legend claims it's where he first arrived at Britain. However this might be a rather modern belief stemming from the association with Roman and Greek reports of a centre of the British tin trade on an off-shore island called Ictis or Mictis. I suspect that both St. Michael's Mount and Glastonbury Tor would have held a similar role in the minds of the pre-Christian locals, as a kind of ultimate limnal place that marks a border and a crossing point between water, land and sky.

That detail of the women's cottages is a very interesting one. I've never given it much thought, but you're right that it's just the kind of detail that GRRM likes to throw at us so he can come back to it at a later date. As you say, Maidenpool seems like a reasonable possibility for Rhaegar's immediate destination -- and it's a good port location if he wants to travel south by sea. My own guess of Rhaegar's route post-abduction takes him east to High Heart and Acorn Hall (read ASoS ch.22 and pay close attention to Tom Of Sevenstream's song, which might tell us quite a lot about Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship) but you raise a very intriguing possibility here that is definitely worth closer study.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Absolutely fascinating OP and really educational. I think the points you make about the fever dream being more about symbolism then a factual account of how the events at the tower of joy played out.

In particular, I really like the idea that Ned was allowed in to the tower to see Lyanna. It makes sense that the conflict would arise from Ned trying to leave with baby Jon and the kingsguard trying to stop him. It's much more of a beautiful tragedy when it plays out that way.

Overall, great post and very well written.

[Kingmonkey]

In particular, I really like the idea that Ned was allowed in to the tower to see Lyanna. It makes sense that the conflict would arise from Ned trying to leave with baby Jon and the kingsguard trying to stop him. It's much more of a beautiful tragedy when it plays out that way.

I always found the apparent intransigence of the 3KG to be suspicious. At face value, the dialogue seems to suggest they had zero interest in even finding out if there was a way to avoid fighting when badly outnumbered, which hardly seems like a good way to protect Jon (or do anything useful, really). There has to be something else going on. Whether it's exactly about leaving with Jon or not we'll have to wait and find out, but that -- or something close -- seems likely.

While the parallel I've found here does not directly imply that Ned would have been allowed to see Lyanna, it allows for it. Once we see the dream as being symbolic rather than literal, even feverishly-kinda-literal, it gives a lot more room for not being stuck with these awkward questions.

Glad you enjoyed the post!

[three-eyed monkey]

Great read, Kingmonkey, don't know how I missed it until now. Really enjoyed your essays and some of the subsequent posts.

[Lady Blackmont]

I want this on a T-Shirt.

Eddard

In Wonderland

[bemused]

Why did I only find this this morning ? ( Strangely, or not, I think I was led here by Lucifer means Lightbringer)

Very, very enjoyable,.

[The Green King]

It's kind of strange that you all seem to see the porter scene that this presents, yet do not look for the portal itself. And here it becomes very useful to see that GRRM doesn't use the typical Arthurian King as the king for his story. There is also the case that the porter scene in somewhat inverted that is a little troublesome, but it might still be a porter scene. 

 

Ned knows the situation has changed drastically. Even if Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar, it's going to be hard to claim the throne. Also, Robert is already as good as on the throne, with support of many of the houses. Convincing Robert that this child is the legitimate heir to the throne isn't going to be that easy, especially if it turns out that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar. Jon and everyone who knows his true descent and is willing to claim it, is at risk right now. Especially with Rhaegar and Lyanna dead to back up the legitimacy of Jon, there are only a handful of people who can do this. But it isn't so likely that they will be that succesfull either. Even Dorne might be still enraged over  the loss of Elia's  and Lewyn's lives. The Targaryen's also are to blame for that. they might not have 'killed' them, but it's also their responsability they were in this perilous situation and got killed over it. And they still would have lost their 'hold' of the power as well. Killing Jon wouldn't be that difficult, and making everyone aware of his existence makes a target of him and everyone around him, and even a reason to ignite more civil war. 

 

 

But there is more to this whole scene. We know that Howland Reed was both present at the Tower of Joy and at The Touney at Harrenhal. It was even him that visited the Isle of Faces before going to the tourney. And we get to know from Ned that he might have been dead if it were not for Howland Reed, and this indeed lends to the idea that  Howland Reed saved him from dying at the hands of Arthur Dayne, but could have a totally different implication too. the whole scene is written in a way that we would feel the tension of an upcoming battle due to the unavoidable differences. But were they truly unavoidable? 

 

 

There is still this possibility that Howland Reed already knew more and reconcilliated them before a battle even occurred. His 'saving' of Ned might also imply that it is thanks to his intervention the battle was avoided. The fever dream doesn't give us any 'actual' deaths, although it seems quite likely that we can trust the implication of Lyanna having died from the childbirth. And also the opposing agendas of Gerold Hightower and the other two Kingsguards might have resulted in the death of 'the White Bull'. It's actually quite likely that if Howland Reed intervened to broker a pact, the only one that wouldn't be agreeing would be Hightower. Although it's also very possible that even he would agree since both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead... making Jon the only family that they can be sure of that he is alive, and to which the Kingsguard has sworn a duty to protect. So i'm leaving still an option for the White Bull to be one of the men that actually died there. 

 

 

This fever dream is indeed highly symbolical, and i'm inclined to think the deaths there were symbolical too. They 'died' because it was the best way to get out of this practically and honorably. The best way to 'die' was by giving up their identities and making graves at this tower. In other words: they're dead because everyone believes that they are. This is a symbolical death, because it does serve Jon's secret better, but likely also because of what Howland Reed knows. He might even be inclined not to battle these men out of respect for Lyanna, and her love for Rhaegar. The kidnapping might have been a kidnapping that Lyanna fancied. 

 

 

That it's quite possible that the men at the Tower of Joy didn't die at all is somewhat indicated by Ned returning the sword of Arthur Dayne to Ashara and the Horse of William Dustin to Lady Dustin, but not their bones as was customary for noblemen. The sentence that there were only two that lived to ride away, could be the indication that the conclusion of this confrontation was that the others were supposed to be 'forgotten as the men they used to be'. In the chapter where Ned has this fever dream he also thinks about the 'lies' he's kept. This indicates that there is not just one lie, the one about Jon's parentage, but likely more linked to this event. And on top of that we see him and Howland Reed, the strange savior,  ride away from the graves at the Tower. 

 

But are the rest really burried there? Likely not. So maybe the porter scene wasn't so oddly inverted afterall, The porter scene had as a result that Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Ned's bannermen (Howland Reed excluded) gained acces to the Otherworld. Their identities have left this world and those are what is burried at at the ruins of the Tower of Joy together with Lyanna (and maybe Gerold Hightower), But their bodies and wits are quite alive and likely on a secret mission to protect the realm. This oddly leaves the possibility to turn them into a form of grailmaidens/ Kingsguard of the Green King/ Templars/ (sacred and secret) Brotherhood of the Weirwood Tree/ Royal outlaws of the God’s Eye of Sherwood Forest (or didn’t anybody notice that ‘Sherwood Forest’ is about where the God’s Eye is). Here the logic applied would be that since there is a secret king, he comes with a secret Kingsguard.

And this might not be strictly about the secret of Jon’s parentage alone, this likely will be about the protection of the realm. Summer does have to die and disappear before before winter can come to cleanse. The links with Lyanna as Persephone isn’t entirely wrong, but to me  Lyanna and Rhaegar are more sacrifices that were made to the Summer God (Crom Cruach like). This would make sense in the way that their deaths secure the future of the realm. Despite the North being cold, it still is on the south side of the wall, which means that this is still the land of summer to which winter is coming. Winter is family of Summer, like the Oak King and the Holly King. This would make the White Walkers family of the Children of the Forest. In Celtic myths the Firbolg are also family of the Tuatha De Danann, but the Firbolg were driven North by the Tuatha De Danan.

 

The survival of most of the men at the Tower of Joy would go more into the territory of Robin Hood, because Robin Hood and his Merry Men often were a band of outlaws lead by a former Knight, who does still support the absent King (Richard Lionheart) and revolts against the reign of the Ursurper King (Richard’s Brother John). The Robin Hood saga often has a former knight, take on the identity of a rebelling outlaw who hangs out in the forest with his band. This isn’t Arthurian legend at all, but it is another medieval tale by excellence. GRRM has played with the image of similar bands of outlaws when he paraded the Kingswood Brotherhood and The Brotherhood without Banners. Both of these brotherhoods start out as rebels against the king, and seem to take it up for the smallfolk. However, they quickly turn into perversions of those initial goals quite fast. It’s good to notice that in both brotherhoods, there is an undead amongst their members, or that is how Oswyn Longneck at least is presented. We know Thoros of Myr is the priest of the Brotherhood without Banners, but it remains a question if the Kingswood Brotherhood really didn't have a fire priest. And this should be enough indication that these brotherhoods have very little to do with the smallfolk, the forest or nature, but are very much linked to the magic of R’hllor, or in the case of the Kingswood Brotherhood, the bad link can also be made through the appearance of Simon of Toyne, who’s family doesn’t really have a good reputation and even has a link to the Golden Company (and thus the Blackfyres) . It seems to me that if you would have a band of Robin Hood –like outlaws with a code, they would be much closer linked to the smallfolk, the Weirwood trees and the Pact. Who better than Howland Reed to show them the way towards that?

 

In many ways the symbolical 'portal' here present comes in the form of the character of Howland Reed. He's the one that 'opens' a solution trough his intervention. The whole fever dream is set up as there is a fight to be coming, but we never witness that fight or its outcome. The Kingsguard are presented as an obstacle, but it is clear none of them actually want to fight. And the ones that seem to be the least willing to fight are actually the Kingsguard, indicated by Arthur Dayne's sad expression. It seems more so that their willingness to fight depends on Ned's willingness to do so. And it's here that Howland Reed's intervention might have been much more crucial. In the books we see often that the 'fire' and the 'ice' related magic seem to have their ways to bring back the dead. But the camp of the Greenseers, doesn't seem to have this kind of magic. Still, here it might turn out that the best way to return from the dead is to 'play dead'. It often involves way less complicated rituals or dramatic consequences.

 

 

Ned seems to be more of a gatekeeper himself. Especially because the 3KG seem quite reluctant to fight. Most of the fighting depends on Ned’s intentions. The 3KG are willing to fight if there might be a need to do so, although they don’t seem to be in complete unison about that either. It’s strange to see that if Gerold Hightower died there, there were seven knights that might have been declared dead without being actually dead. And it would make sense, that instead of fighting and dying for only knightly honor, Howland Reed would have been the one to reveal a more honorable cause. A cause that impacted them all, and that might have been worthier than a fight nobody wanted to fight in the first place. I beg you not to underestimate the sadness and guilt that this might have brought Ned as well. He was part of a secret that he never could reveal. And it had cost him much. We only have to think how Jon’s presence in Winterfell has hurt Catelyn to probably just get the jist of it. Also, the lie of Jon’s parentage and the likely love of Lyanna for Rhaegar, made his ‘friendship’ to Robert Baratheon a painful lie from that moment on. In fact anything that came with this event might have only made the lie(s) bigger. And yes, even if the men present still lived on, the abandonment of their identities for and eventual bigger cause would still be a huge sacrifice. I don’t think Ned would have found that burden easy to care, especially because he was bound to a strict silence about it. Talking about it meant revealing Jon’s parentage and the cause of those men. Not talking about it also caused hurt to people who were dear to him at that time.

 

 

And then there is that incredibly funny image of the bending of the knee. When Ned arrives at the Tower, Oswell Whent is described as following: "Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone." It's funny and somewhat contradictory to hear these words a bit later out of the mouth of Arthur Dayne: "Our knees do not bend easily". Although the whetting of the blade and the refusal to bend the knee for the new king both are two different actions with both their own meaning, they both are indicating the unwillingness to surrender, but...the image stays funny in the way that Whent's knee is already bent when Ned is arriving. In any case it doesn't sound like Whent was that eager to fight either. yet all of the Kingsguard seem to show a willingness to fight and do their duty... but only if that might turn out to be nescesary. Howland Reed, the crannogman who is close to nature, and who has visited the Isle of Faces (where the Pact took place and where the sacred order of the green men resides), might have brought a different kind of solution. He’s always present at Ned’s side on some important occasions from the Tourney at Harrenhal till the return to Winterfell (and this includes the visits at the Tower of Joy and Starfall).

 

But now that we have gone through the portal to the ‘otherworld’, lets look a bit further in this rabbithole.

 

Another person that isn't likely to be dead and that is worthy to be mentioned here too, is Ashara Dayne, the Lady of the Lake. What we have of her 'suicide' are rumors, but it is always indicated that her body was never recovered. The jumping of a tower by a maiden isn't such an uncommon image in medieval literature, so it's becomes quite acceptable to take that rumor as the truth. But what is very strange about this death is not only that the body wasn't recovered, but the suicide would have happened shortly after Ned returned the sword 'Dawn' to Ashara. So Ashara has the sword and then she 'dies' out of grief. It's a good rumor. But personally i doubt it.

The circumstances of her death are so close to the symbolism of the 'the falling star' that is the sigil of House Dayne and echoes 'the hammer of the waters', and event that in itself is quite linked to destroying locations that reference Atlantis/Tir Na nOg/Lyonesse. The woman who is described as being so beautiful (a star), jumping (falling) in the water, while her House is all about the responsibility of finding the ‘worthy knight’ to wield that sword (symbolically returning the sword to the water?). But we haven't heard much about 'Dawn' either since Ashara received it from Ned.  I think Ned and her discussed what action to take, and here too 'playing dead' might have been the best option as well. It was the best way to protect the sword, and probably the child she kept hidden too (This might have been not only to muddy the water about who the father was and protect only her own honor. It might also have been to protect the fathers honor as well as it might have been to protect the child from its father as well as from its family). Meera is one of the possibilities.

 

The sword ‘Dawn’ is a sword that stands out and is easily recognizable. Although Arthur Dayne might have been wounded and maybe even died at the Tower of Joy (what I said is a speculation, an educated guess, so nothing is sure), it still would be hard for Arthur to take on another identity while still carrying such a remarkable blade. If he needs to ‘play dead’ he would be best to also let go of the sword that could make him recognizable. So Ned brings this blade to Ashara, maybe even with instructions of Arthur or Howland Reed. House Dayne has always been finding a ‘worthy knight’ to wield this blade, that’s why they have the tradition of giving it to the next ‘Sword of the Morning’. But I think there is more going on than just that. I think House Dayne has its own troubles too. Especially with people that covet that sword  and family members that also want the honor of  the title of ‘Sword of the Morning’. The Sword attracted the attention of the ‘Smiling Knight’, who seems to really desire that specific sword. And one could ask what he knew about it, and why he wanted it so badly? Can this be related to the unknown older brother of Arthur Dayne? To me it doesn’t mean much good that we see Edric Dayne and his aunt, Allyria Dayne in the proximity of Beric Dondarrion, who is leading the Brotherhood without Banners together with Thoros of Myr. It looks to me that Ashara knew Edric wasn’t up to the task of being ‘Sword of the Morning’ or was too close to Beric’s influence already. However, if she had a son herself it might have been better to be sure and prepare him for that task. In the meanwhile it would seem better to hide the Sword, and ‘cast it away’, which would be another link to the Arthurian sword Excalibur.

 

Ashara might, just as the men from the Tower of Joy, been headed for the Isle of Faces (which does bear a resemblance to a place like Avalon, be it in combination with the link to Celtic gods like the Dagda. Especially the Dagda seems apropriate since he is also known by the epithets Eochaid Ollathair ("All-father"), Ruad Rofhessa ("lord of great knowledge"), Samildanach ("many skilled"), Cera (possibly meaning "creator"), Fer Benn ("horned man" or "man of the peak"), Easal, Eogabal, Crom-Eocha and Ebron (which seem to refer to yew) (Yew does seem to be known as the English Yew/ European Yew, a conifer, with the Latin name Taxus Baccata. This tree is probably the inspiration of the Weirwood tree). It would make sense for the Lady of the Lake to go to Avalon (since she is often seen as the ruler of Avalon), thus for Ashara to go to the Isle Of Faces, since this place seems to have a link with it. This could be the place where we find the men of the ToJ too, since this location seems too correspond. But I do see that it would make sense too to go to Greywater Watch in the Neck. In the presence and under the protection of Howland Reed, all of them could take other identities and build up for a battle to come. Although I see that it would make sense for Ashara to go there, the men of the Tower of Joy could also have found a safe haven in House Dayne of High Hermitage first, maybe have found temporary or permanent shelter there. However, since I think we still might see them, or at least  the men they have trained, I presume the Neck might also be a good location. It’s also a location that is supported by sources outside of the books as a location that is quite interesting for Arthurian Legends.

 

Just like the real life Notingham (remember the sherrif of Nottingham from Robin and his merry men) has a resemblance to Harrenhal locationwise, and has Sherwood forest almost on the spot where the inn at the crossroads is in Westeros, so it has Oakham quite closeby resembling the God’s Eye too. But most legends of Robin Hood and his merry men, have less to do with Sherwood forest itself. It’s hard to distinguish the real historical Robin Hood, although it’s also suggested that the name came first as a common name used by some courts to indicate an outlaw… This might play handy for GRRM to create a new green brotherhood/kingsguard that has weapons like the Weirwood longbows of the Ravens Teeth.

 

 

 It might look quite tinfoil/crackpot. But i don't think it that much, it's just a trying to give a sense to it, and this way would resolve and explain a lot of the mysteries around ToJ. But also the Celtic myth, the Arthurian legends as well as the Robin Hood tale could be woven together here. Yes, the Robin Hood tale might make sense here too, in the way that we see House Dayne already in reference with the two other brotherhoods (Arthur killing the 'Smiling Knight' and Edric in the presence of Beric and Thoros in the Bwb). And the masterful way that GRRM  uses different of these elements by superposing, mirroring and linking them, i wouldn't be surprised that it went this way. Or part of it at least. I guess that  it's a theory like any other. But it could have major implications. My reasoning behind this theory is mostly that we've seen several of these elements being used here and there, but the inner workings of the magic of the Greenseers/Children of the Forest/ People of the Pact, hasn't become clear yet. Often we see these elements used under influences of R'hllor or others, Besides Eddard Stark, we see that Howland Reed  and  Arthur and Ashara Dayne play an important role in all of the events from the Tourney at Harrenhal till the Tower of Joy/meeting at Starfall. I think they still might have a big role to play, but the first thing to do would be 'going dark'. GRRM does kill off characters that are important, but these characters seem somehow too vital to me to just have been killed like that. Letting them 'go dark' would be a reference to them going to 'the otherworld', but also would give them the possibility to make preparations for a bigger task. Everything which is going on right now is chaos growing bigger, but all kinds of symbolism is there that tells us that it is a crisis (or night). I think Brynden Rivers was trying to prepare for this. Don't forget that he, despite the Odin symbolism that sometimes comes with his character, has also a whole lot of Merlin/Taliesin symbolism written in his character. He was Hand of the King for two kings, and is a Warrior-wizard. Some of the Merlin tales place him at the end of his life as a hermit in a forest that he closed through enchantements. So yes, Bloodraven is a Merlin figure by excellence. But also don't forget that with the Weirwood trees he sometimes can evoke dreams to the ones close to the trees. In the White Sword Tower, we see that there is a Weirwood table present in a room that evokes the Round Table (here it is the Round Room with a shield table out of weirwood). So, yes Bloodraven could have given them signals trough dreams. Yes, Howland Reed went to the Isle of Faces. That is exactly what would make all of this more possible. 

 

And looking at it this way, it might even be possible that Lady Dustin has been playing a game all along too. There is this possibility that Ned did tell her that William Dustin didn't die, but he could have let her take a vow in front of a Weirwood tree never to reveal this until due time. If her 'hatred for the Starks' is feigned, her 'hatred' could be a useful tool to make her one of the most desirable candidates for whoever wanted to take over the North, but also make her one of the best spies one could have. If her hatred is feigned ofcourse..., then that socalled hatred is the perfect 'honey' for a trap. 

 

I hope you don't think i took it too far. ;)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

All very interesting, especially because I've been thinking about Arthurian legend quite a bit lately for a project I'm working on.

 

The most plausible part of this analysis is the possibility that whatever happened between Ned and his men, and the 3 KG, likely happened after Lyanna died. That makes sense to me.

[Codename: Nymeria]

 

Part 2: Ned's dream; a Porter's tale.
 

Beyond the Glass Fortress they did not see the valour of Arthur.
Six thousand men stood upon the wall.
It was difficult to speak with their sentinel.
- Preiddiau Annwfn

There's no clear indication why it was difficult to speak with the sentinel, but the reference to Arthur's valour hints at another stock piece of Celtic storytelling that relates to people visiting towers. This is sometimes known as the Porter Scene. We see examples of this in Lugh's arrival at the court of Nuada in Cath Tánaiste Maige Tuired (The Second Battle of Moytura), in Culhwch's arrival at Arthur's court in Culhwch ac Olwen and the fragmentary Pa gur yv y porthaur? (What Man is the Porter) from the Black Book of Carmarthen.

The characteristic of these porter's scenes is that the protagonist is challenged on trying to enter a tower by the porter or door-keeper. Before the protagonist is allowed in, the porter demands that they prove their worth and valour. The response to the Porter's challenge is to boast. This seems a little odd to us but is common in Celtic storytelling, where a good old boast doesn't have a negative connotation, but is rather expected of a hero. This is well demonstrated in the Irish Scéla Muicce Meicc Da Thó (The Tale of Mac Da Thó's Pig) where Cet mac Mágach of Connact wins the right to carve the hero's portion at a feast by out-boasting all comers. We also have Hywel¹ Ab Owain, prince of Gwyneth's Gorhoffedd Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd. Literally Hywel's boast-poem, this points to a bardic tradition of boasting.

Like so much in Celtic storytelling, we struggle to understand exactly what's going on in porter's scenes. Our surviving material is limited, late, often fragmentary, and generally very hard to interpret. The Welsh material particularly seems to contain a lot of obfuscation. Many scholars suspect that the later bardic tradition was a mystery tradition, and that interpretation was often intentionally challenging.

The idea that proving yourself is necessary to enter a castle seems a little odd. The fact that the porter who challenges Arthur in Pa gur yv y porthaur appears as Arthur's own gatekeeper in Culhwch ac Olwen adds to the mystery. In the context of the castle as an otherworldly attainment, it makes a lot more sense. These aren't simply a lord's feasting hall they are trying to enter; the hero is seeking entrance to an otherworld. In that context, the line above from Preiddiau Annwfn about Arthur's valour being unseen and the difficulty in talking to the sentinel makes a lot more sense.

When we look at Ned's dream narrative with this in mind it all starts to look very familiar if oddly inverted. Many people have commented on just how boastful the three King's Guards are being. It seems almost out of place, out of character for three such noble knights. In the context of a Celtic porter scene though, it's what you'd expect. The questions that Ned asks are equally challenges to the King's Guard to defend their valour. If they are worthy, why were they not at the Trident? Why were they not with the King? Let's break it down.

Thus the basic ingredients of this scene are all there. The hero seeks to enter a tower (an otherworldly place where he seeks the typical rewards of the katabasis, to return with a revelation or to rescue a loved one). There are guardians at the tower. There is an exchange of challenge and boast to prove worthiness and valour. There's an odd inversion in that it's Ned who challenges and the sentinels who boast, but the result is just what we have in the Preiddiau Annwfn account. The sentinels are unmoved,  the outcome is disastrous. Even the numbers three and seven are echoed. Compare:

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away" - aGoT ch.39
"Three fullnesses of Prydwen, we went into it. Except seven, none returned from Caer Sidi" - Preiddiau Annwfn
 
¹ If anyone read that name and thought of Howland, you're probably right. Dianna Wynne Jones' book Howl's Moving Castle is almost certainly given a nod in Howland Reed's moving castle Greywatch, and Howl in Jones' books is a pseudonym based on his real name Howell, an anglicisation of the Welsh name Hywel.

 

 

First off, incredible thread. I'm impressed that you know this level of Celtic mythology, and the overall analysis is spot on.

 

That said, I did notice your mention of the challenge/boast dialectic as it regards the Arthurian legend. To this end, I think you're leaving out one of the more well-analyzed and thought-provoking annals of the Arthurian legend, and the challenge in the tower scene to boot. To wit:

 

ARTHUR : "If you do not show us the grail, we shall take your castle by force!" (Challenge: compromise and share, or be destroyed)

THE GUARD IN THE TOWER: "You don't frighten us, Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English kniggets. Thppppt!" (Boast: your military might does not move us to open our gates)

GALAHAD: "What a strange person." (Confusion: what is that guy on about?)

ARTHUR: Now look here, my good man! (Challenge: If you don't stop overacting, Michael Palin will play the Frenchman).

THE GUARD IN THE TOWER: "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of eldeberries." (Boast: I'm farting at you. And because I eat cheese all day, it will be something fierce).

GALAHAD: "Is there someone else up there we can talk to?" (Challenge: Don't make me go get your supervisor.)

THE GUARD: "No! Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time-a!" (Boast: you will find no respite from my witty barbs).

 

(Could not help myself). Surely this fits in with your theory?

[Kingmonkey]

(Could not help myself). Surely this fits in with your theory?

 

I've scoured the text for evidence that Rickard Stark smelled of elderberries, but I'm coming up blank. I love the idea that Ser Arthur Dayne's battle prowess may have been related to his heavy cheese consumption though.

[Kingmonkey]

It's kind of strange that you all seem to see the porter scene that this presents, yet do not look for the portal itself. And here it becomes very useful to see that GRRM doesn't use the typical Arthurian King as the king for his story. There is also the case that the porter scene in somewhat inverted that is a little troublesome, but it might still be a porter scene. 

The portal guardian implies the portal, but it's the tower not the door that is relevant. These Celtic porter scenes seem to derive from the idea of an otherworld guardian, preventing the unworthy from the mystery achievement of an otherworld journey. We don't need the ToJ to be a literal otherworld any more than we need a perfect match for King Arthur - GRRM appropriates a lot of mythic imagery, but he doesn't duplicate myths so much as employ their symbolism for his own storytelling.
 

This fever dream is indeed highly symbolical, and i'm inclined to think the deaths there were symbolical too. They 'died' because it was the best way to get out of this practically and honorably. The best way to 'die' was by giving up their identities and making graves at this tower. In other words: they're dead because everyone believes that they are. This is a symbolical death, because it does serve Jon's secret better, but likely also because of what Howland Reed knows. He might even be inclined not to battle these men out of respect for Lyanna, and her love for Rhaegar. The kidnapping might have been a kidnapping that Lyanna fancied. 

You make an interesting argument, but I find it hard to go along with the idea that the 3KG didn't die. The deaths of the 3KG and of Ned's five aren't given to us in the context of the dream, but in Ned's direct thoughts.
 

t would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

That's clear that at the very least Martyn Cassel had been buried in those cairns, and the rest of passage does seem to indicate that the other eight died too. GRRM was asked at a recent Con about who survived the ToJ and said that only "two men" did. All that along with the way the events at the ToJ are presented as being very tragic make it unlikely to me that there are empty cairns.
 
 

Their identities have left this world and those are what is burried at at the ruins of the Tower of Joy together with Lyanna (and maybe Gerold Hightower), But their bodies and wits are quite alive and likely on a secret mission to protect the realm. This oddly leaves the possibility to turn them into a form of grailmaidens/ Kingsguard of the Green King/ Templars/ (sacred and secret) Brotherhood of the Weirwood Tree/ Royal outlaws of the Gods Eye of Sherwood Forest (or didnt anybody notice that Sherwood Forest is about where the Gods Eye is). Here the logic applied would be that since there is a secret king, he comes with a secret Kingsguard.

I like your point about the 3KG as grail maidens, but I think that's the role they were playing AT the ToJ, not afterwards.
 

And this might not be strictly about the secret of Jons parentage alone, this likely will be about the protection of the realm. Summer does have to die and disappear before before winter can come to cleanse. The links with Lyanna as Persephone isnt entirely wrong, but to me  Lyanna and Rhaegar are more sacrifices that were made to the Summer God (Crom Cruach like). This would make sense in the way that their deaths secure the future of the realm. Despite the North being cold, it still is on the south side of the wall, which means that this is still the land of summer to which winter is coming. Winter is family of Summer, like the Oak King and the Holly King. This would make the White Walkers family of the Children of the Forest. In Celtic myths the Firbolg are also family of the Tuatha De Danann, but the Firbolg were driven North by the Tuatha De Danan.

GRRM has described the Others as being like Sidhe, which are pretty much an early modern recension of the Tuatha de Danaan. The CoTF do seem much more like the classic people of the mounds though, I agree. Certainly ASOIAF's pseudo-history of invasions has some similarities to the waves of invaders in Irish legend. I'm very wary of trying to make any of these parallels fit too well, though.

We could look at another princess-in-the-tower story, and liken Rhaegar and Lyanna to Cian and Ethniu. Jon as Lugh? That would cast the Valyrians as Tuatha de Danaan and the first men as Fomorian. I don't think any of these are one-to-one correlations.
 
As for the sacrificial element, you may well be right. There's a strong element of ritual about the ToJ, but I'd raise the question of how much of it was intentional. Perhaps the deaths of Lyanna and Rhaegar were no intentional sacrifices, but served the magical purpose of sacrifices.
 

It seems to me that if you would have a band of Robin Hood like outlaws with a code, they would be much closer linked to the smallfolk, the Weirwood trees and the Pact. Who better than Howland Reed to show them the way towards that?

Don't forget that the BwB deferred to the Ghost of High Heart's wisdom, and she's very much a part of the old magic. Your Robin Hood connections are a very interesting one, and worthy of exploration. Anguy seems like a stock Sherwood transplant, for example. I think it's worth keeping in mind that while Robin was identified as a disaffected nobleman, there seems to be a Robin Goodfellow influence too. Robin Hood's skills are very much the skills of the earth and what GRRM would call the smallfolk, and so he does represent a kind of war between the forces of nature and the Norman aristocracy as man-above-nature. Howland certainly has some very Robin Hood characteristics, I agree.
 

Ned seems to be more of a gatekeeper himself. Especially because the 3KG seem quite reluctant to fight. Most of the fighting depends on Neds intentions. The 3KG are willing to fight if there might be a need to do so, although they dont seem to be in complete unison about that either.

Yes, it's certainly interesting that Ned takes on the role of gatekeeper himself here. His words come across as being a challenge, but he's the one in the position to be making that challenge. The 3KG must answer to him, because he's the one who's won the war. I don't think you can put the fight on Ned's shoulders though. Gerold's "The Kingsguard does not flee" pretty much says that the fight is inevitable, and it's Arthur who draws his sword and says "And now it begins". I dealt with the concept of intransigence because I think that's vital to understanding what happened at the ToJ -- neither side really wanted to fight, but they ended up fighting anyway. There seems to have been some difference between them, which to both parties regret they could not resolve.

In the meanwhile it would seem better to hide the Sword, and cast it away, which would be another link to the Arthurian sword Excalibur.

Yes, that's a nice connection. After King Arthur's death, Excalibur was returned to the Lady of the Lake. After Arthur Dayne's death, Dawn is returned to Ashara, who we are told dived into the sea. Makes me wonder if Dawn was forged on the Isle of Faces! I do like your idea that if Ashara is alive she might have hidden on Isle of Faces as an Avalon parallel. I'd certainly see Ashara's survival as more likely than any of the 3KG.
 

I think Brynden Rivers was trying to prepare for this. Don't forget that he, despite the Odin symbolism that sometimes comes with his character, has also a whole lot of Merlin/Taliesin symbolism written in his character. He was Hand of the King for two kings, and is a Warrior-wizard. Some of the Merlin tales place him at the end of his life as a hermit in a forest that he closed through enchantements.

Yes, very good point. Merlin's primary attribute as a magician is an ability to see into past and future, and in some versions of the story Nimue imprisons him within a tree. The events of the ToJ would certainly be of great interest to Bloodraven (who let's not forget was a half-Targ half-first man himself). Was there any weirwood at the ToJ though? A lonely watch tower in a mountain pass far to the south -- it doesn't sound like prime weirwood territory. Maybe that's why Rhaegar picked it.
 

I hope you don't think i took it too far. ;)

Not at all. I find it hard to go along with additional survivors from the ToJ but you raise some really interesting points and this is just the kind of discussion I hoped to see. Thanks for your post!