Eddard in Wonderland

[LmL]

First off, incredible thread. I'm impressed that you know this level of Celtic mythology, and the overall analysis is spot on.
 
That said, I did notice your mention of the challenge/boast dialectic as it regards the Arthurian legend. To this end, I think you're leaving out one of the more well-analyzed and thought-provoking annals of the Arthurian legend, and the challenge in the tower scene to boot. To wit:
 

ARTHUR : "If you do not show us the grail, we shall take your castle by force!" (Challenge: compromise and share, or be destroyed)
THE GUARD IN THE TOWER: "You don't frighten us, Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English kniggets. Thppppt!" (Boast: your military might does not move us to open our gates)
GALAHAD: "What a strange person." (Confusion: what is that guy on about?)
ARTHUR: Now look here, my good man! (Challenge: If you don't stop overacting, Michael Palin will play the Frenchman).
THE GUARD IN THE TOWER: "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of eldeberries." (Boast: I'm farting at you. And because I eat cheese all day, it will be something fierce).
GALAHAD: "Is there someone else up there we can talk to?" (Challenge: Don't make me go get your supervisor.)
THE GUARD: "No! Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time-a!" (Boast: you will find no respite from my witty barbs).
 
(Could not help myself). Surely this fits in with your theory?

Now THIS is the discussion that I hoped to see... Sorry I can't resist the holy grail of sketch comedy either. The lead in was particularly excellent, Codename Nymeria.

So, Galahad at the castle Anthrax = Pod Payne at Littlefinger's brothel? Sorry to bring in show material, but it's a one-to-one correlation, man, just look at the symbolism!

[LmL]

Just real quick, the idea thrown out that Dawn could have been forged on the Isle of Faces has some merit, because the God's Eye is a crater lake (hypothesis) and the Isle of Faces a typical crater lake island, created by the rebound of the molten stone in the seconds after impact. My own astronomy research suggests this - the Hammer of the Waters was a fiery moon meteor, which may well have landed where the God's Eye is now, triggering the earthquakes which shattered the arm of Dorne and the Iron Islands. Meteor activity there is a decent prospect. Dawn was supposedly carved from a meteor, but I also think Azor Ahai's Lightbringer was too - except I think it was made from a black stone, not a white one - the greasy black stones we find scattered about the planet (I think those are moon meteors from the destroyed second moon). So, one way or the other, the idea of Arthurian legend possibly suggesting sword activity on the Isle of Faces makes a great deal of sense to me.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Thanks for the wonderful read Kingmonkey!

(and to the poster who bumped this, as well  :) )

 

Not much to contribute, as I am not very familiar with the Arthurian tales and the underlying mythology. Just to say that I found your breakdown of the dream scene and its related symbolism very convincing indeed.

 

The idea of liminal places is also very interesting and there are quite a few in ASOIAF: I think the Hollow hill and Hardhome should qualify. Also, tied to the kidnapping theme, I've been thinking that the Crossroads Inn has consistently been such a place, making it, in my view, a likely candidate for the place where the act of kidnapping actually begun (and, around a decade and a half later, the story was repeated as a sort of a farce: a hideous imp in the place of the fair maiden).

[Black Crow]

Not sure how I missed this thread, but an absolutely splendid set of essays and very good analysis. 

 

I can't pass it by however without a reminder of a yet more famous porter scene - in Macbeth.

[Kingmonkey]

I can't pass it by however without a reminder of a yet more famous porter scene - in Macbeth.

'Faith sir, we were carousing till the second cock;
and drink, sir, is a great provoker of three things.

That explains it all! The 3KG were drunk.

Shakespeare's porter scene doesn't really seem to be connected to these Celtic porter scenes, more an excuse for Shakespeare to throw in one of his tension-relieving comic fool characters and give actors time for a costume change. However thinking about Shakespeare's porter scene while writing this essay did inspire me to write my "Winter Cometh" spoof with poor Ser Oswald Whent cast as the fool (I don't know why he always ends up as the butt when I do a ToJ spoof).

[Kingmonkey]

Just real quick, the idea thrown out that Dawn could have been forged on the Isle of Faces has some merit, because the God's Eye is a crater lake (hypothesis) and the Isle of Faces a typical crater lake island, created by the rebound of the molten stone in the seconds after impact.

 

The idea of liminal places is also very interesting and there are quite a few in ASOIAF: I think the Hollow hill and Hardhome should qualify. Also, tied to the kidnapping theme, I've been thinking that the Crossroads Inn has consistently been such a place, making it, in my view, a likely candidate for the place where the act of kidnapping actually begun (and, around a decade and a half later, the story was repeated as a sort of a farce: a hideous imp in the place of the fair maiden).

Limnal places are a distinct theme in ASOIAF. Dragonstone , the Quiet Isle, The Neck, The Womb of the World, The ToJ, all classic limnal zones. The Wall is about as obviously limnal as you can get, and the God's Eye (land inside water inside land) certainly fits the pattern. LML, this is definitely an area you should be considering. Here's a description from Mallory of Excalibur: "so breyght in his enemyes eyen that it gaf light lyke thirty torchys". Excalibur was taken from a stone, wielded by a man called Arthur, and returned on Arthur's death to a lady who descended into a lake. The Long Night has a likely precedent in the Arthurian wasteland prominent in the story of the Fisher King (sometimes Bran the blessed, who's lame), and you'll be interested to know that some scholars quite seriously suggest that the Wasteland myth -- and very possibly the dragon imagery of Arthurian legend too -- may be related to comet visitation and related meteor impacts around 535-542ad. Have a dig into the work of Irish dendrochronologist Mike Baillie, who's work is right up your street.

Crossroads are a kind of man-made limnal zone, I guess. A place where one zone (east and west) meets another(north and south). There's an obvious symbolism of the path taken and the path not taken. Cat's actions at the Crossroads inn -- abducting Tyrion and thus triggering the Wot5K -- does seem to be an echo of Lyanna's abduction by Rhaegar. Nice connection, Shadowcat.

[LmL]

Why did I only find this this morning ? ( Strangely, or not, I think I was led here by Lucifer means Lightbringer)

 

Very, very enjoyable,.

 

 

Not sure how I missed this thread, but an absolutely splendid set of essays and very good analysis. 

 

I can't pass it by however without a reminder of a yet more famous porter scene - in Macbeth.

 

 

Thanks for the wonderful read Kingmonkey!

(and to the poster who bumped this, as well   :) )

 

Not much to contribute, as I am not very familiar with the Arthurian tales and the underlying mythology. Just to say that I found your breakdown of the dream scene and its related symbolism very convincing indeed.

 

The idea of liminal places is also very interesting and there are quite a few in ASOIAF: I think the Hollow hill and Hardhome should qualify. Also, tied to the kidnapping theme, I've been thinking that the Crossroads Inn has consistently been such a place, making it, in my view, a likely candidate for the place where the act of kidnapping actually begun (and, around a decade and a half later, the story was repeated as a sort of a farce: a hideous imp in the place of the fair maiden).

 

 

Everybody sing:

 

~ the circle of long analysiiiiiiiss ~

 

~ it moooooves us aaalllllll ~

 

​I'm glad people are finally putting eyes on this bad boy... sometimes the best essays slip through unnoticed at first... only to rise harder and stronger. Huzzah!

[Codename: Nymeria]

 

Limnal places are a distinct theme in ASOIAF. Dragonstone , the Quiet Isle, The Neck, The Womb of the World, The ToJ, all classic limnal zones. The Wall is about as obviously limnal as you can get, and the God's Eye (land inside water inside land) certainly fits the pattern. LML, this is definitely an area you should be considering. Here's a description from Mallory of Excalibur: "so breyght in his enemyes eyen that it gaf light lyke thirty torchys". Excalibur was taken from a stone, wielded by a man called Arthur, and returned on Arthur's death to a lady who descended into a lake. The Long Night has a likely precedent in the Arthurian wasteland prominent in the story of the Fisher King (sometimes Bran the blessed, who's lame), and you'll be interested to know that some scholars quite seriously suggest that the Wasteland myth -- and very possibly the dragon imagery of Arthurian legend too -- may be related to comet visitation and related meteor impacts around 535-542ad. Have a dig into the work of Irish dendrochronologist Mike Baillie, who's work is right up your street.
 

 

Listen, strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate fro the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

[LmL]

 

Limnal places are a distinct theme in ASOIAF. Dragonstone , the Quiet Isle, The Neck, The Womb of the World, The ToJ, all classic limnal zones. The Wall is about as obviously limnal as you can get, and the God's Eye (land inside water inside land) certainly fits the pattern. LML, this is definitely an area you should be considering. Here's a description from Mallory of Excalibur: "so breyght in his enemyes eyen that it gaf light lyke thirty torchys". Excalibur was taken from a stone, wielded by a man called Arthur, and returned on Arthur's death to a lady who descended into a lake. The Long Night has a likely precedent in the Arthurian wasteland prominent in the story of the Fisher King (sometimes Bran the blessed, who's lame), and you'll be interested to know that some scholars quite seriously suggest that the Wasteland myth -- and very possibly the dragon imagery of Arthurian legend too -- may be related to comet visitation and related meteor impacts around 535-542ad. Have a dig into the work of Irish dendrochronologist Mike Baillie, who's work is right up your street.

Crossroads are a kind of man-made limnal zone, I guess. A place where one zone (east and west) meets another(north and south). There's an obvious symbolism of the path taken and the path not taken. Cat's actions at the Crossroads inn -- abducting Tyrion and thus triggering the Wot5K -- does seem to be an echo of Lyanna's abduction by Rhaegar. Nice connection, Shadowcat.

 

I wonder if you've considered the tale of Ser Galladon of Morne? I'll put my astronomy symbol notes in red, as this is indeed another version of the Azor Ahai story. The idea of the "just maid" refers to the constellation Virgo, the celestial maiden, who is also known as Astraea. As Astraea, Virgo holds up the scales of Libra, so she's a "just" maid, hardy har har.  I'm pretty sure the "moon maiden" constellation in ASOIAF is Libra. George uses this to symbolize the moon maiden herself, Nissa Nissa. The idea of the Thief (the red wanderer) being "in" the Moon Maiden is another metaphor for Azor Ahai sticking his red wanderer (comet) into the Nissa Nissa moon. Ooh, sexy. 

 

When not fighting would be conquerors, they fought each other. Their blood feuds ​(blood betrays) were as deep and dark as the bogs (the bogs are black, therefore the blood in the blood feud is black... black blood is what you get when Lightbringer or fire magic cooks you, like Beric or Mel or Nissa Nissa herself) between their hills. From time to time, some champion would bring peace to the point (the blood feuds are on the "point"), but it never lasted longer than his lifetime. Lord Lucifer (lucifer means lightbringer, I've heard) Hardy. He was a great one. (thanks everyone, really, thank you, you're too kind...) And the brothers Broon as well. Old Crackbones, even more so. But the Crabs were the mightiest of all. Dick still refused to believe Brienne had not heard of Ser Clarence Crab and his exploits.

 

"Why would I lie?" She asked him. "Every place has it's local heroes. Where I come from the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, The Perfect Knight."

 

"Ser gall-a-who of what? Never heard of him. Why was he so bloody perfect?"

 

Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him (Nissa Nissa lost her heart to make a magic sword as well). She have him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her. Nor any shield withstand her kiss. (the destroyed moon is associated with shields and mirror shields, and it was destroyed by Lightbringer the comet in an explosion that is also described as sexual intercourse via Schmendrick's "R+L=Lightbringer") Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice (three heads has the dragon, and three meteors has the dragon moon) did he unsheathe her. He would not use the maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair. 

 

Crabb thought that was hilarious. "Ah ha ha the Perfect Knight, ah the perfect fool it sounds like. What's the point of having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?" (Note the repeated attachment of "bloody" to the magic sword - this is Lightbringer we are speaking of. Brienne remembers this sating an decides to use Oathkeeper in the forthcoming battle... I think Ned's sword was actually Lightbringer, but a dark lightbringer... that's another story)

 

"Honor," she said. "The point is honor."

 

That only made him laugh the louder.  "Ah ha ha Ser Clarence Crabb would have wiped his hairy ass with your perfect knight, m'lady. If they'd ever have met, there'd be only more bloody head (bloody head = decapitated moon, moon meteors) sitting on the shelf at The Whispers, if you ask me. 'I should have used the magic sword!' He'd be saying to all the other heads. 'I should have used the bloody sword!'"

Brienne could not help but smile. "Perhaps," she said.  "But Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe 8 feet tall, mounted on an aurochs, (this sounds like either Garth the Green or a Sacred Order of Green Men guy, and in fact I think Azor Ahai might have killed Garth the Green - Stannis killing Renly would be a reenactment of this) he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say. (Lightbringer used to slay a dragon? It slayed the dragon moon, but I'm not sure that fits. Maybe it slew an Ice Dragon? Too much to hope for, most like. Perhaps Azor Ahai slew his own dragon, as Dany might have to.)

Dick was unimpressed.  "Crackbones fought a dragon too, but he didn't need no magic sword. He just tied its neck in a knot, so every time it breathed fire it roasted his own ass! (hey look, the Ouroboros. I don't know who "Crackbones" is supposed to refer to, but he created time, apparently. Who knows what this means.) (AFFC, Brienne)

 

My point in sharing this, besides the obvious "sword from a stone" ideas, is to point out that there were two magic swords in the Dawn Age. Dawn, the white sword of the morning, which I believe was originally called Ice, made from a pale stone meteor, and Lightbringer, the black sword of the evening, which was made from the black meteorite worshipped by the Bloodstone Emperor.. who is really Azor Ahai, according to me. We don't need to go into the details of that, but the point is, both stories are parallel - swords carved from meteors, one white and icy, like milkglass, and one black, made from a fiery black dragon meteor which drinks the light. 

I think it's cool that George kind of spun the Excalibur story into two alternate versions. The trick is that we have this story of a sword called Lightbringer, and we are told it was a heroic, save the day kind of sword, so we assume it should be a illuminating, glorious weapon. But everything I have researched about Azor Ahai shows the opposite - he was more into shadow and darkness, and black fire. That lines up with what we've seen from fire magic in the books - it's quite shadowy. And all this about blackfyre and shadow fire - what's up with that? Valyrian steel, steel forged in dragon fire, is for some reason almost black. Pure steel forged at higher temperatures should be pale silver... but swords made with fire magic comes out "dark and smokey."

 

Meanwhile, the icy white sword glows with pale light, and Bran thinks of it as a "starfire" sword. We do have icy starfire - the blue eyes of the others burn like blue stars. The Others are PALE shadows, and their own pale swords glow with ghost light. Arthur, who wields Dawn, appropriately dresses in all white. The Kingsguard themselves are always described in icy language - snowy cloaks, snow white armor gleaming like ice, etc. The Others are pale shadows and WHITE walkers.

Why is everything associated with ice white and bright, while fire beings have black blood and are just generally shadowy? Because George like to invert things and make shit complex. He likes to play with expectations, so fire magic is shadowed and ice magic is bright. Similarly, I think original Ice (Dawn) was the "light-bringer" in a very real sense, while Azor Ahai's Lightbringer" was really a dark-bringer. 

 

Oh, and if I could just explain the God's Eye briefly, you'll see why Lightbringer was indeed forged in the God's Eye.  The sun is known as the fiery eye of R'hllor to the R'hllorists., while the moon is described as an eye in several scenes in the books. The Qarthine legend says the second moon cracked when it wandered to close to the sun, which implies an eclipse at the moment of the moon's destruction - that's the only way it would appear to have cracked from being too close to the sun. This is also the only formation that would create the illusion of the sun wielding the comet like a sword against the moon. There are many clues, which i won't go into here, that indicate this destroyed second moon was a smaller moon - so it would not totally eclipse the sun, but rather create the image of a black pupil over a red sun - now that looks like an eye. It's also Euron Greyjoy's sigil. ;)  From this God's Eye sun-moon formation came the thousand thousand dragon meteor shower, and it is from one of these black meteors that Azor Ahai made Lightbringer. 

 

The moon, which can also be a face of course, represents the Isle of Faces, and the God's Eye lake represents the sun. So, Lightbringer was indeed forged in the God's Eye, on the Isle of Faces... astronomically speaking. But the pattern for George is to make it true in the sky and on the ground - which leads me to believe that a sword might have been forged, or re-forged, perhaps, on the Isle of Faces.

 

The Isle of Faces itself looks very like a crater lake - large meteors often cause a rebound of molten rock which forms the island in the center. If there is meteor rock on the Isle of faces, then it might all come together. Remember also that the Last Hero who eventually wielded dragonsteel (which I think was Azor Ahai's black sword, reforged with dragonglass per Radio Westeros' theory) broke his sword at first. In all the duels with flaming swords, the flaming swords break against cold steel. In the Hound and Beric duel, the Hound's blade is called "the cold one" twice, in contrast to Beric's "fiery one." Beric himself has one eye, symbolizing the God's Eye to go along with his flaming sword.  All of which says to me that Ice (Dawn) might have broken the black steel of Azor Ahai, and this was remembered as the Last hero's sword freezing and snapping. I dunno, the last bit is more speculative, but I keep seeing that pattern. 

 

There are a TON of quotes to back up the God's Eye associations I am making here, a whole essay's worth to be exact, so I'll just give you one:

 

All the other places they’d come upon had been empty and desolate.  Farms, villages, castles, septs, barns, it made no matter.  If it could burn, the Lannisters had burned it; if it could die, they’d killed it.  They had even set the woods ablaze where they could, though the leaves were still green and wet from recent rains, and the fires had not spread.  “They would have burned the lake if they could have,” Gendry had said, and Arya knew he was right.  On the night of their escape, the flames of the burning town had shimmered so brightly on the water that it had seemed that the lake was afire. When they finally summoned the nerve to steal back into the ruins the next night, nothing remained but blackened stones, the hollow shells of houses, and corpses.

[…]
The air was full of birds, crows mostly.  From afar, they were no larger than flies as they wheeled and flappedabove the thatched roofs. To the east, Gods Eye was a sheet of sun-hammered blue that filled half the world.  Some days, as they made their slow way up the muddy shore (Gendry wanted no part of any roads, and even Hot Pie and Lommy saw the sense in that), Arya felt as though the lake were calling her.  She wanted to leap into those placid blue waters, to feel clean again, to swim and splash and bask in the sun.
(ACOK, Arya)

 

Well okay, one more, from Dorne, the nation where the sun is a weapon, and they have a city called "sun-spear" (spoiler alert: that means fiery meteor). The idea is that when we are told the Hammer of the Waters (also a meteor) was called down from the God's Eye, well, yes, it was:

The sun was beating down like a fiery hammer, but it did not matter with their journey at its end.  (AFFC, The Queen Maker)

 

The Hammer was called down from the God's Eye in the same sense that Lightbringer was forged there. Kinda trippy shit if you ask me... very esoteric. I thin what happened was that at least one meteor landed in Westeros and created the God's Eye. This may have created earthquakes which broke the Arm of Dorne and the Iron Islands, or perhaps meteors landed there as well. One of the stepstones islands (all that remains of the broken arm) is called bloodstone, which is pretty nifty.

 

At the battle of the green fork (another crossing, like the arm of Dorne), Tyrion is hit in the arm by a morningstar... there are a lot of arm wounds with comet symbolism like that scattered all throughout the books, I have found. The Green fork is where a black dragon bled blood and rubies into the water, after being hit with a hammer... and so on and so on. 
 

[LmL]

 

Listen, strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate fro the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

 

WE NEED A LIKE BUTTON!!!   :bowdown:  :bowdown:  :bowdown:

[LmL]

Just to follow up on all that and how it relates to maidens in towers...

 

The reason that kings wear golden crowns is because they were imitating the rays of the sun, and thus conveying divine authority upon themselves. It's easy to see the likeness - a golden circlet with points to symbolize the rays. This puts the head in position of the sun, just as the moon can be a face. Thus, when people or towers are decapitated and lose their crown, they can be a symbol for the death of the sun or moon, or the falling stars of the moon's destruction. Towers, royalty, and mountains are the three things that have crowns in ASOIAF, and they are all used to symbolize the sun and moon at various times. 

Thus it is appropriate that the other place rumored to be the location of the children's calling down the Hammer of the Waters is the children's tower at Moat Cailin:

 

And the tall, slender Children’s Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown.  It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog.

 

Towers losing their crown denote sun or moon death, which is exactly where the hammer of the waters came from. The rubble spit by the great beast are the black stones of Moat Cailin, which get an interesting description in ADWD:

 

Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place.  Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god’s abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night’s rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil. (ADWD, Reek)

 

Ah ha, oily black stone - when the sunlight hits it. If the oil black stones are the moon meteors, as I suggest, then they were turned to oil black stone when the sun struck it with a comet... same idea here. In the last quote, they were scattered by a great beast; in this quote, they are a god's abandoned toys. Again, same idea. The scattered black stones are the pieces of the moon goddess's corpse, the crown is the moon, and the crown was bitten by the great beast that was the red dragon comet. 

So - maidens in towers. Recall the "Just Maid" concept having to do with Virgo, holding the scales of Libra, and consider another fair maid, Maris the Most fair, the daughter of Garth the green who supposedly (all of this is supposedly, but whatever) married Uthor Hightower:

 

Maris the Maid, the Most Fair, whose beauty was so renowned that fifty lords vied for her hand at the first tourney ever to be held in Westeros. (The victor was the Grey Giant, Argoth Stone-Skin, but Maris wed King Uthor of the High Tower before he could claim her, and Argoth spent the rest of his days raging outside the walls of Oldtown, roaring for his bride.  (TWOIAF)

 

Maris, the fair maid, is locked in the tower, so to speak. In this story she is there willingly, but the symbolism is the same. The sigil of the Hightower is very "eye of Sauron" like, adding to the imagery of the moon maiden in the god's eye tower.

 

Rhaegar is a solar king who takes two brides, represeting the sun and two moons pattern. Lyanna is the second bride, and she's in a tower. Lyanna Stark in the tower represents a moon in the sky - and she dies to give birth to Lightbringer, Azor Ahai reborn himself (one of many, admittedly), Jon Stargaryen. 

Ashara Dayne leaping from a tower is the same deal - she's playing the role of a moon who falls from the sky and drowns in the sea. 

Thus, we can see that the forging of the sword in the god's eye and the maiden dying in a tower or leaping from a tower is very tightly interconnected. 

 

Now recall Euron's sigil - there's a black crown surrounding the god's eye image. To me, that's a clear inversion of the golden rays of the sun, and thus, it's a night sun, or Lion of Night. A black sun. This symbolizes the fall of the Long Night, emanating from the God's Eye. 

 

But the story of Maris the Most Fair is actually a very close copy of the story of Argus Panoptes ("far-seeing; many-eyed"), a Greek story about the moon maiden Io. There is an actual moon named Io, one of Jupiter's moons (it's actually a true fire moon, which means a core of pure magma surrounding very volcanic crust of black rock). So, the story goes, Zeus (Jupiter) desires Io, who is a beautiful maiden (all Greek stories start this way), but here comes jealous Hera, who isn't into this whole open relationship thing, and so Zeus turns Io into a heifer, and disguises her with cloud cover.

 

Now, cows are almost always lunar associated, so Io being a heifer fits right in... and she's obscured by clouds. But Hera is not fooled - she's seen this game before - and so she demurely asks Zeus to make her a gift of this beautiful cow here in this field! And Zeus has to say yes, or be exposed, so he gives the calf to Hera. Hera ties Io to a tree and assigns Argus, the many-eyed giant, to guard her. The tree is the cosmic world axis, the axis mundi, a universal mythological symbol, and our moon calf maiden is tied to it, creating a clear picture of a moon orbiting something. 

 

Retuirning to the ASOIAF version of this myth, we see the many eyed giant is switched for a stone-skin giant - but George uses eyes as symbols for meteors, so really, he hasn't changed that much.  Argus is roaring, suggesting dragons. The image of Argus circling outside the tower where Uthor has the Most Fair maiden is actually the entire anatomy of the moon - the maiden is the fiery core of the moon, and Argus is the moon's stone skin. The stone skins blows apart to create a meteor shower which George symbolizes as a thousand fiery eyes on more than one occasion, and Argus Panoptes is a giant with a hundred eyes.. eyes that have been changed into stone skin... get the idea? 

 

Argus Panoptes guards Io, but Zeus sends Hermes, the messenger of the gods, to slay Argus. The red comet is called the red messenger, as well as Mormont's torch, and Hermes also has a torch. He lulls Argus to sleep, and then cuts of his head. BLAM! Take that. His new name becomes Hermes "Argus-Slayer," the deed is so great. Decapitation of a god represents the death of a sun or moon, so slaying the many eyed giant is bound to lead to cosmic destruction...  and the moon (Io), is now free to wander... and this does in fact unleash devastating weather. The tale goes on a bit, and she eventually meets Prometheus and even more eventually becomes a woman again and gives birth to a line which leads to Hercules and Europa.

 

I mention Europe because Europe is another one Jupiter's moons, and this one is an ice moon - a rocky core, icy rock crust, and tones of cold water / liquid methane / etc in between. I think George did in fact use these two very famous moons with very excellent mythology, Io and Europa, to create ice and fire moons. The fire moon was the one which birthed dragons, as in the Qarthine legend, and the Ice moon is the one remaining. 

 

Here's the important part: the solar king takes two lunar brides, a fire and an icy one. There are several, but take Rhaegar, as he's the impotent one. Elia of Dorne is the fire bride, and Lyanna the ice moon bride. The sun already hit the fire moon with a comet, and now we see the red comet featured prominently in the series. It disappeared for a bit, but it's coming back - (very mild) TWOW [spoiler]but Barristan sees it at the dawn before the battle of Mereen in the TWOW chapter.[/spoiler] The Qarthine prophecy says that one day, the other moon will crack and dragons will return. This would mean the comet, on its way back, will hit this icy moon, and I expect it will trigger the Long Night. Somehting has to trigger it, right? How is the sun going to go dark? If a comet hitting a moon did it last time, then why not this time? This is my major prediction for book 6, by the way... I don't make many, but there it is. Comet hits ice moon, new Long Night falls. I don't think the Ice Moon will be completely destoyred - I expect it might lose the water and ice and leave a barren rocky moon... like earth's... but I digress. 

 

Anyway, the point is, Rhaegar took his fire moon bride first, and then he left Lyanna, the ice queen, in the Tower of Joy, with a dragon seed in her belly. The pattern fits the Qarthine prophecy - and therefore, Jon Snow represents somehtignwhich has not happened yet - the sun impregnating the ice moon with dragon comet seed. Jon is the prince who was promised, in that sense, and that is why he represents Lightbringer, as the mighty Schmendrick has said. But he's not a 100% fiery lightbringer, a 100% fiery Azor Ahai reborn - he's also his mother's son, and therefore he's Azor Ahai reborn with an icy half. He's Lightbringer, in an icy sheath.

 

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

 

These are the Targaryen colors, but half icy. 

 

God, I hope some of that made sense to someone.   :blushing:

[The Green King]

Please be careful, LmL. Although the tales and prophesies of the Last Hero, the PTWP and AA likely are intrinsicly linked through some events, this does not mean that they are the same person. In some of my ideas i tend to see them as three distinct and different persons, maybe even the 3 heads of the dragon, and... why not... maybe even 3 different 'types of dragon'. 

[sweetsunray]

:love: Love the analysis! Yes, this does make the dream of the 3kg at the ToJ way more understandable.

 

Not sure whether it was mentioned or considered yet, but is it possible that the reversal of the porter scene is because the 3KG wanted access to Lyanna's child?

 

Let's say that they did allow Ned to go in. Then they found him with Lyanna dead in his arms. The subject on which they could not reconcile would be the child, with Ned intent on hiding him and raising him as his own bastard son, never with the intent to reveal who he is; while the 3kg would have wanted to smuggle him out to Essos, raise him and find an army to re-take his throne (as Aegon was raised to do, and Dany after Viserys dreams of doing sometime in the distant future). But the positions may by then be reversed that the 3 kg would not let Ned leave with the child.

 

So, instead of "blocked to go in to see Lyanna", the reversal might indicate "prevented from leaving with Jon"? So, far I have noticed that GRRMs reversals of symbolic interactions and roles is never without intent and/or meaning.

[LmL]

Please be careful, LmL. Although the tales and prophesies of the Last Hero, the PTWP and AA likely are intrinsicly linked through some events, this does not mean that they are the same person. In some of my ideas i tend to see them as three distinct and different persons, maybe even the 3 heads of the dragon, and... why not... maybe even 3 different 'types of dragon'. 

 

That's what we're trying to figure out, my brother. First, we establish the connections, then we try to figure out what they mean - are the symbolic, or literal as well? In the case of large, devastating, magically-enhanced natural disasters, those are the types of events which generate universal myth, and the Long Night was certainly one of those. As of the various characters... yeah, it's all up in the air. There is likely some overlap, but trying to sort out where it is is the challenging part. :)

 

Besides, I'm not the one resurrecting 3 dead knights of the Kingsguard ;)  (just kiddin with you)

[Avlonnic]

 

WE NEED A LIKE BUTTON!!!   :bowdown:  :bowdown:  :bowdown:

YESSSSSSS!!!!!

 

Also, truly educational, insightful, well-researched and presented - a magnificent contribution to our discourse.  I will be back with more after I can fully digest this but, Well Done, Ser Kingmonkey.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Very interesting. It ties in with Martin and Scottlands ties to the books. Thought if you want something a bit funny- recently a study found that most southern britions still contain a good bit of cletic DNA- more then their germanic roots. Granted, GRRM didn't know that at the time.

[The Green King]

Just real quick, the idea thrown out that Dawn could have been forged on the Isle of Faces has some merit, because the God's Eye is a crater lake (hypothesis) and the Isle of Faces a typical crater lake island, created by the rebound of the molten stone in the seconds after impact. My own astronomy research suggests this - the Hammer of the Waters was a fiery moon meteor, which may well have landed where the God's Eye is now, triggering the earthquakes which shattered the arm of Dorne and the Iron Islands. Meteor activity there is a decent prospect. Dawn was supposedly carved from a meteor, but I also think Azor Ahai's Lightbringer was too - except I think it was made from a black stone, not a white one - the greasy black stones we find scattered about the planet (I think those are moon meteors from the destroyed second moon). So, one way or the other, the idea of Arthurian legend possibly suggesting sword activity on the Isle of Faces makes a great deal of sense to me.

 
I love your 'Black/ Bloodstone Theory', especially in connection with the BSE myth, the birth of dragons, the doom of Valyria,  the Hammer of the Waters and the Long Night.  
 
What does fascinate me, is how you would explain the second 'attempt' of the Hammer of the Waters. Because there is a mention of two such events. The one that shattered the arm of Dorne and so forth. But there is also a mention of a second 'failed' attempt, in which the CotF tried to bring down the hammer a second time, this time in an attempt to break the island in two, this is the 'failed attempt' that flooded the Neck (according to Meera). I'm wondering if this could be the explanation of the second type of stone. Variations on the theme might be that the effect of the 'sunspear' itself on the parts that it touched might have a neutralising effect, which might not have been and overal effect. Or parts of the exploding moon did touch the icier moon, which in turn lead to parts of it to break loose and land here (as a fire and ice combination). Was, the second event an after-shock event? 
Basicly, i don't see the explanation for the second 'Hammer of the Waters' event, neither as for the pale stone, which i doubt to be strictly icy. 
 
What is pretty interesting though is that there is Black Stone also is referenced underneath the fortress of Hightower, at the Seastone Chair, at the Wolf's Den, and so on. But indeed, there might be a distinction needed, since one of them is black and oily, other descriptions seem to speak of black and crumbling... is there a difference? 
 
However this is always in sharp contrast to the Pale Stone. I'm not convinced that this belongs to a strict ice magic. 
 
I love lots of explanations and connections that were given by your theory, but for me it ends often with the black stone/ fire and shadow magic. Big Kudos though. 
 
The interesting part is about the 'Hammer of the Waters' event(s) and it's effects on Westeros. Here i'm often left with a ton of mysteries, but there also seem to be lots of tie-ins with mythological event in as well as outside the books. 
One of them is that the first 'Hammer of the Waters' event destroyed a lot of places that through analogy with the places in the real world seem to have a link with possible mythical locations for Atlantis/Tir Na nOg (or in short symbolically and mythologically charged places). Places like the arm of Dorne and  the Iron Islands, and a few less important ones (also not unthinkable that some aren't references because nothing is left anymore on the map of Westeros). We do find some references to Deep Ones, Merlings, Squishers, they all evoke this kind of Atlantian sealife. And that is all quite okay, in fact even quite 'normal' since this is a magical fantasy universe, and especially a Medieval one, where this is not even that amazing that there are tales. 
 
However, it does become a bit more interesting when we look at the location of Starfall and the connection to Arturian myth. A bit of looking around and we see that a part of Cornwall is missing. Whole arm that in the real UK finally leads up to Land's End and Mount's Bay with St-Micheal's Mount, is missing in on the map of Westeros. And it does seem logical that this part is likely destroyed, like a few other parallel places on the map, afterall it's a fantasy world. But that is only half true. A bit of research on that missing location, learns us quite a few interesting things. I know that the books have their own mythos, but it's quite interesting to look if we could track some source material that GRRM could have used to base his symbolism on, and then compare it to the references in the books. 
 
There are indeed a bit of small islands in the middle of the very wide river mound that of the river Severn (Torrentine in the Books), but those are mostly only interesting as inspration for the location. However the whole part of Cornwall that isn't to be seen on the map of Westeros is a whole deal more interesting. Similar to the analogy between the Tower of Joy and the Glastonbury Tor, the arm of Cornwall that is missing on the map of Westeros, seems to be the place that referenced 'Lyonesse' in the later  Arthurian Legends. In the legend is is said that Tristan (from Tristan and Iseult) lived here and that the island or part of land sunk soon after Tristan left it. It fulfills a kind of Tir Na nOg (Otherworld) function in the mythology. But that is Arturian legend part ofcourse. However if we go looking closer to St Michael's Mount, we do find Mount's Bay. The Cornish name of tidal island  St Micheal's Mount is 'Karrek Loos yn Koos' and predates the English name. The litteral translation means "grey rock in the woods". This seems to be a name it got through folk memory. At the beach at Perranuthnoe, in Mounts's Bay remains of trees have been seen at low tides following storms. And indeed there used to be a hazel wood that submerged in about 1700 BC. But do not forget the symbolism of St Micheal himself, he's also known as a Dragonslayer. 
 
I'm sorry to say, but i don't think it's all that accidental that Starfall with it's meteorite and it's pale sword is at that exact location where we find closeby symbolism that links it too an Arthurian otherworld place, but also to a sunken land, a grey rock in the wood and the dragonslayer. I mean,  i don't want to draw conclusions too fast, but... doesn't that seem a bit too much coincidence to be all there?  GRRM is a masterful writer and throughout the books he shows us lots of references to all kinds of different sources with which he weaves his own tale. But this seems to much of symbolism to be left alone, especially, if you look at the symbolism of House Dayne,  Ashara's death (and the Lady of the Lake/ Hammer of the Waters -or at least meteor falling- symbolism coming together there), and last but not least the whole symbolism of 'Dawn'/ Excalibur/ The Sword in the Stone/ the Celtic sword Claíomh Solais all being referenced and woven together. I mean this is a humongous ton of references and symbolism so beautifully woven together to be 'just a red herring'. 
 
Before i go on with some questions i better explain the differences between the swords i just referenced. It might deliver some more insight. I don't think that 'Excalibur' (Caledfwlch) needs much introduction, it is commonly known as the mythical sword of King Arthur that sometimes is attributed with magical powers or associated with the rightful sovereignty of Great Britain. Excalibur, the sword that is given to him by the Lady of the Lake,  is in some of the legends seen as the same as the Sword in The Stone, which is a proof of his blood lineage. Excalibur is indeed often linked to the idea that it appears when needed, but also afterwards, to be cast away (returned to the source).  To keep an open mind, I think it's interesting to note that sometimes the Sword in the Stone and the sword given by the Lady of the Lake sometimes are treated as two seperate swords. But then there is also the mythical Celtic sword Claíomh Solais. This is also an interesting sword to reference here. The first reason to mention it is that it also has a connection to the idea of appearing when the 'hero' needs it, which kind of links it to the idea of Excalibur. But this mythical Celtic sword is also the sword that is considered one of the 'Four Treasures of the Tuatha De Danann' (the others 3 are the Cauldron of Plenty, the Spear of Lugh, and The Stone of Destiny). But yes i kept the best for last, the description comes close to the pale sword 'Dawn'  and the name of the blade 'Claíomh Solais' translates as 'The Shining Sword' or 'The Sword of Light'. 

 

:stunned: I know, it's indeed a lot to swallow  :laugh: . 

 

Remember, there is ofcourse no guarantee that this all means anything, however... that many links to a remarkable place with a remarkable family with a remarkable sword... 

 

And also ... GRRM has said that Arthur Dayne is indeed an exceptional swordsman, but there are others of the same level as him, and it's there that 'Dawn' does make a difference. 

 

 

But time for some questions to be asked. 

I like most of the  Astronomy-based 'Black/Blood Stone Theory' that LmL has dug up. The parts where I do seem to be troubled with it is when it comes to this 'Pale Stone'.  But i am  starting to have ideas on how to get there after the information of the sunken Land of Lyonesse. 

 No matter how much i like the theories of the 'Black Stone' and the connection with fire and shadow magic... my question always has been if Ice-magic was really the combatting force. GRRM does create an elaborate universe, only to let 2 opposing forces battle?  Fire against Ice? 

That is such a dualistic system that it even seems too silly to be true, defenitely too silly to be GRRM who weaves all kinds of things togeter and of which you sometimes have to wonder if there aren't triple or quadruple meanings  to what you just have read. He weaves in things that only after re-reads are noticed and seem to gain in value and importance. Things that actually make you wonder like the comparison between the biggest oathbreaker of the Kingsguard Jaime 'the Kingslayer' Lannister ('The false knight who profaned his blade with the blood of the king he had sworn to defend'),  the ideals of the chivalric code of true knights (Be brave and just/ Defend the young and innocent, especially women who cannot defend themselves / Be cleanly as well as godly/ Act with military courtesy: in combat when nobles and knights are taken prisoner, their lives are spared and are often held for ransom), and the ideals and oaths that come with those of a Kingsguard (in which you defend the King, his family and his secrets). That GRRM who puts us in front of some of the most mindboggling dillemma's and mysteries in which you can only see there often is very little straightforward 'black or white', but often a ton of different shades of any colour (and even shows us on a regular basis that it actually sometimes depends on how you hold it towards the light and even goes to the point that the kind of light matters), it's hard to believe that he would solely let it come down to a question of fire or ice. 

 

And yet that is what we're lead to believe. Certainly with those scary icy white dudes coming from the 'land of always winter' and the dragon 's and firepriests from the other side of the world... (but often it's then that those wise words follow) OR NOT.

 

That may have been my biggest problem with LmL's theory of the 'Black/Bloodstone'... okay fire... okay shadow... and what's the opposition? Ice? and that's it?  That's like saying , well you got the option between freezing to death and being resurrected into a lifeless ice popsticle puppet (or maybe, if you're very lucky, you get to live on the incest baby production farm), but you also have option two which will makes that sooner or later you will end up as some kind of barbecue meat. Here your luckiest bet is that you get to learn some spells and they'll you might learn to drink poison to say alive, but it also could turn far worse in the way that you first get to be a slave, get intoxicated slowly and still endup as barbeque meat. I know that GRRM has indeed talked about the Cathars and their dualistic god system, but it seems elaborate to just leave it at that. Magic involved or not. 

 

 

So what about the idea of 'the pale stone' not being just ice magic. ? When the First Men arrived in Westeros, the isle had a fragile unity, but a unity nonetheless All the 'natural' elements lived together. This was a place where the Giants lived in the reach, and likely it you could even find unicorns, and such running around. Even winter creatures were welcome here. This was the way things went around here, Summer was followed by Winter and then eventually by Summer again. But every culture has it's own customs and views, and to the First men this isle looked fine to settle, but it still was a wild chaos. Still the First men, who had travelled from far away, and even had crossed the arm of Dorne, were eager to settle. So the High King, Garth Greenhand, ordered that some gardening was in order. This is the Bronze Age and so the First men started to in habit this island according to their customs. But these customs, were exactly what provoked the war between the First Men and The CotF. 

 

What provoked the Children of The Forest to Call upon the Hammer of the Waters?  Whas it the arrival of the First men? Not really. They were welcome guests in this paradise they had created, the CotF, were actually quite happy to have them. At least, they were welcome at first. Until the First Men really started war with the CotF. And the most provocative force of the ursurpers was Brandon of the Bloody Blade, who drove the giants away from the Reach deep into the North, and killed many of the CotF, so many even that their blood turned the Blue Lake in the Reach into the Red Lake ( the red waters!). He is said to be the ancestor and maybe even the father of Bran the Builder. His ferrocious killing is what caused the CotF to panic. And thus they began their chant to call the Hammer of The Waters to break the Arm of Dorne. They had enough of these all-ursurping First Men, especially when they see the acts of Brandon of The Bloody Blade, they knew it was time to use the heavy artillery in order to save most of the paradise they had shaped. So they start their call for the Hammer of the Waters. Don't forget that these were the powerful greensingers (maybe not yet 'seers') of the CotF and that they are also not-human, but lived close to nature. 

 

So what actually happend is not only an external effect of a comet flying into the sun and causing a sunspear to be driven through the second (fiery) moon, Nissa Nissa. Nope, the comet is likely only a messenger or at least not the single point of origin. It's the CotF that actually, through their strong magic, cause a polarity shift in the magnetism of Planetos. A shift so strong that the effect was Planetos' magnetism attracted  the Sunspear  that destroyed Second Moon because it stood perfectly in between the sun and the earth. The consequence was that a lot of the shattered black and flaming pieces of the second moon where attracted to Planetos. This cataclysm, also known as the Bloodstone Betrayal (or is it the Blood Lake Betrayal?),  was a tremendous meteor rain all over Planetos. The physical consequences were indeed the start of the Long Night (since such a cataclysm would indeed bring lots of dust clouds and hide us from the sun, only to be worsened by the effect on the Volcanic action and so forth), but it is also  the birth of dragons (how funny that Planetos is the real Mother of Dragons and actully hid herself away from the sun! ) and thus the rise of Valyria (with its Bloodstone Emperor >> look for further elaborate explanation on this Forum in the posts of Lucifer means Lightbringer and his Astronomy of Planetos: superb read). 

 

The cataclysm has much more side effects than the CotF had foreseen, but the Arm of Dorne  is indeed broken by the Hammer of the Waters, but it has also affected several other places, like the Islands of the Ironborn amongst others. There were indeed lotts of tsunami's the flooded Westros at that time just after the event. This made that the first men needed to go to higher ground or more up to the North. Anyhow, the effect of all the dustclouds up in the atmosphere of Planetos was indeed not ony darkness, but since the sun was also a source of warmth, it also grew colder. And the cold was not only coming from the effect of the sun being blocked. Winter was coming... with the angered Others. The Others are distant family of the CotF, in earlier times both distant relatives had battled over the island, but the CotF had won, and the Others had gone way up North to settle their Land of Always Winter. However, now they were coming towards the lands of the CotF and they came to reek havoc. This because the actions the CotF had done. the Hammer Of the Waters had not only worked here but had also, worked a bit too well and simultaneously had lots of Volcanic activity as a consequence, especially in Valyria. This might have had a bigger impact on the Others (maybe even made them infertile) than we know. Anyhow, they were enraged by the actions of there distant kin. But this was a very harsh time for the First Men. It was very cold, and besides trying to protect them selves and their children from the cold, they also tried to  fend the Others off. Which soon turned out a futile effort. Their bronze swords were no match for the powers of the others. 

 

So it is here that the story of the Last Hero starts. While the First Men try to find other materials to make swords of, a company of thirtheen men head out to find the CotF. Armed with a bronze sword, The Last Hero and his twelve companions, a horse and a dog are sent  to find the CotF. These men are the first thirtheen Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch. The Last Hero is nobody else than Brandon of The Bloody Blade. He was not only concious of his guilt, but he was also forced to go look for the CotF by the other First Men.It is he who brought the wrath of teh CotF on him. His companions will all died at the hands of the Others, his horse too. Only his dog will live longer.He will find the children of the forest. He shows his remorse and they provided him with obsidian blades, and it might be him alone that made the Pact. Or It was him who was the messenger that came with the peace message that prepared the Pact. The First men and the CotF. 

He does get the Obsidian blades back to the First Men, who learn to use them as weapons against the Others. This was the turning point in the the battle against the Others. And slowly but surely the First Men were able to make the Others retrun back to the Land of Always Winter. 

 

However the story doesn't end there for Brandon of  the Bloody Blade. Upon his return he finds out that his beloved wife who is also his sister, Rose of Red Lake, is taken by the Others. He's an outcast to the First Men anyhow, because they hold him responsible for the peril from the gods (CotF) that he brought on them. But more then that he was struck with grief over the loss of hiw wife, maybe he wanted to go looking for his wife or was exiled to the North. The First Men also tell him he's better off being a watchman for the eventual return of the Others, and this might also have been his punishment, because, even though he was the trigger of such an event, he also had proven to have been a hero too in the defense against the Others, which is why both First Men and CotF might have decided to spare his life, but rather cast him out and make him vow to a life of penitence trough vigilance as a compensation for his misdeeds.  However, his son, Brandon the Builder, does help restore Westeros (maybe even under pressure and as part of a further punishment of the sins of his father). 

 

Rose of Red Lake, is said also to be the daughter of Garth Greenhand, the High King of The Reach. And thus she's the sister to Brandon of the Bloody Blade. Rose of Red Lake is the ancestor of House Crane of Red Lake.  According to legend she is also a skinchanger who can transform into a crane at will. Finally the broken Brandon of the Bloody Blade went North, or was sent there.  Once in the North he finally saw his wife Rose again.  He was overjoyed to be with her again. Even though she's a blue and icy Rose, this  became the tale of how the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch became the Night's King. He made  his own pact with the Others.  He is the one that kept making sacrifices to the Others on the condition they let him and Rose live alone in the "original Nightfort' (in Westeros of these days, this  also know as Craster's Keep or something along those lines). It's not unlikely that when Brandon of the Bloody Blade was sent North, he was sent there alone or only with a handful of men. Maybe it was only him and his family, likely his son. This might have been already Brandon the Builder, but that is not at all sure. What does seem more likely, is that the son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade does get exiled too, or decides to leave up North as well, since he's still being looked upon as the son of the 'sinful father'.  Likely that he's the one to found Winterfell. This son might have been Brandon the Builder, or it might have been one of the sons after him. I presume it's not unlikely that Brandon the Builder is just the one that did father a lot of sons soon after. This might be the explanation for the start of the Night's watch and the  credit  that Brandon the Builder gets  for  the building of Winterfell, the Wall as well as a few castles more south (even in the Reach).  I mean... Planetos might be a world of magic, it still would take lots of serious magic to make such constructions pop up like mushrooms. So it might be that the deals to build these structures were struck by Brandon the Builder, the father who sent his sons out to do these works. I'm not claiming that there was no magic involved, however, it does seem more acceptable that the sons of Brandon the Builder did a few of these jobs. 

 

This could also account for the rift that grew between 'The Night's King' and the ancestors of the Starks. At the centre of this is the 'inbreeding' and the pact with the Others. We have heard vague rumours about children being sacrificed to the Others, like Cratser actually mentions that he too 'still obeys the laws of the Old Gods'. This implies that the idea of sacrificing babies to the Others might have not been so uncommon. But there is a doubt on who 'the Old Gods' are to whom Craster refers. There might be an overlap here. And that is also  suggested by the presence of Weirwood trees at this side of the Wall. It might be that the offering of babies to the Others wasn't that uncommon to some Northeners at the border between the lands of the CotF and the Others. The building of the Wall might already have been started by Brandon The Builder, and maybe exactly to keep the Others out of these territories. The conflict we can see here is that of the son (or further family) of  Brandon of the Bloody Blade. It's quite possible that he was also paying the price of his father's sins, thus moved North as well. But completely disapproved of his father's actions. Especially when it came to the bond with his 'now transformed' and 'tainted' mother and the pact that his parents had made with the Others. 

 

However, it might also be reinforced by the fact that the father actually dindn't disagree with the judgement of his son and actually empathised with him. This would make that the 'Night's King', also made his pact with the Others not only to be with his beloved wife, but also as a matter of penitence and sacifice that enabled and maybe protected his nearby son to develop differently. This would make him the person that accepts his fate as a consequence of his earlier actions, and by doing this he accepts his role as an outcast in order to protect his nearby son and his family, and by extension actually the all of the First Men that live south of the border. But in the meanwhile his son and his descendants start(s) to build a more solid way to protect the realm of First Men against the Others in order to replace the sacrificial pact of between his  father (and some Northerners) and the Others. That would give a more realistic account of how the Wall got built, but also would explain things like why the Nightfort is in fact a secret passageway between the two world, which is reflected in the 'the Black Gate'. It suggests there is a possible link between Bran the Builder (or a descendant), the Night's Watch and the Night's King.  This would be more confirmation of the link between the Night's King and the King Of Winter, and also would solidify the reasons  why a there should be a Stark at Winterfell. 

 

 

Furthermore, the taint of the link between the Night's King and the King of Winter might also be the origin of where the name 'Stark' finds it origin. As a way to create distance between the both and get rid of the tremendous taint of the shame of the link to the 'Night's King', certainly after the Wall was complete, it might have been a name that Bran the Builder gave to himself or his children, or even to his original home, after he settled in the North. The link between the 'Starks' and the Direwolf are an inheritance of both the warging of Rose of Red Lake (who was rumored to be able to skinchange in a Crane) and the 'dog' of the Last Hero. This  might be an the indication that Rose and Brandon of the Bloody Blade, did have atleast one child (maybe it was a girl, idk) before Rose was 'taken' by the Others. 

It's likely also why House Crane, doesn't mention too much about their ancestor Rose. She is the Night's Queen.  her story and name do give an explanation for the imagery of the 'Blue Rose' that is linked to Lyanna Stark. It would also be an indication that the socalled 'sudden love' of the Night's King for his 'corpse bride' actually was less sudden, and much more rooted in a passionate preexisting love, which in turn might also have been  true for the love connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

 

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade might have been armed with an bronze blade laced with dragonglass once he went up North: This might be the original Ice Blade. It wasn't the bronze that would hurt the Others, however the fact that it was laced with obsidian might have reinforced the blade for that purpose. It's also possible that he never had this blade, but was rather an invention that we can also credit to Bran the Builder, his son or another descendant. However, the bronze blade proved ineffective once the Andals came up North, since they used iron blades. Maybe there was even a second blade that was named Ice, this time of iron, and maybe also  laced with dragonglass. Somehow we know through Old Nan, that the Others didn't like iron. This could be accounted for through the fact that Old Nan does have lots of accumulated knowledge through her folktales, but it these small, yet important details changed trough the times and experiences with the Others. However this iron blade might be effective against the Others, it would yet again prove ineffective against the Valyrian steel blades of the Targaryens. This is the huge benefit of a Valyrian steel blade for the 'King of Winter': it is a blade that proves strong against the possible foes from either side of the Wall.

 

The Wall likely contains lots of dragonglass/meteor material, also called frozen fire, instead of lots of spells. This is why the Others can't pass the Wall. It's also why Melisandre feels stonger at the Wall, most of the obsidian/dragonglass found here comes from the same second moon that is exploded and brought down the 'Hammer of the Waters'. 

 

The reasons why the Others are angered, it pretty simple. The return of the dragons doesn't please them at all. But even more important is that this happened simultanously with the breaking of 'Craster's Pact' aka the 'Pact of the Night's King'. with the Others They don't get the babies they were promised by the Night's King (Craster, inbred descendand of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, the original Night's King), the fact that this falls again at a similar time as the return of the dragons is no less a treath to them. 

(this could potentially become interesting with Sam and Gilly and the baby in Oldtown, but also the whole idea that Sam, although he didn't kill Craster, might have 'stolen' from the Others, he surely has slain one of them) 

 

 

Rewind a bit for ...

 

Some more about the composition of the stones, some other possible consequencesof the 'Hammer' event,  an even closer look at the lands of Dorne and...House Dayne of the 'Dawn'. 

 

The pale stone sword likely has the same origins as most of other blades, but it was forged by the most magical  and humongeous smith ever: the Hammer of The Waters, wielded by the Children of the Forest, again. Yes the hammer of the waters did not only bring forth the dragons, as suggested by  LmL. It brought forth the dragons in Valyria. I repeat V-a-l-y-r-i-a. And the reasons are fairly simple to explain. Altough the origins of the the basic ingredient of stones, blades and other magical objects often is the same, the meteor material coming from the explosion of the Second Moon, it stays important how this meteor material interects with the places where it lands. The whole thing with the LmL's 'Theory of Black/Bloodstone' is that it focuses on the Bloodstone Emperor and the origins of fire (and shadow) magic. But we don't get to know more about the Pale Stone. Or do we? 

Actually, in the books we only get very slight hints. Yet there are two types of  black stone, and there is also a grey or pale stone. I think it migth be much more around than one thinks to see. 

 

So where lies the difference between the black stones? Well the material that landed in Valyria landed in a volcanic active area, that is as much as saying that the glowing (volcanic meteor) hot material from the explosion of the Second Moon landed  in or near  more volcanic  material, this time volcanic material from Planetos. This is  mixing an external fire element with a fire element that is from Planetos, or putting these fire elements closer to the volcanic active parts of Planetos. This has an impact on the heating/mixing/cooling process, actually the whole chemical composition. This is also the core of what will form the Black/Bloodstone, which LmL is talking about.  It's Also from this material that the Valyrian Dragons were born/made, i guess. 

 

This is a crucial difference with what happened in Westeros with the same hot meteorite material. In Westeros, the Hammer of the Waters, did indeed displace a lot of  water. It even broke the the Arm of Dorne, as well as caused a lot of damage to the Islands of the Ironborn, left the black stone material that forms the foundations of the Fortress of High Tower, the walls of the Wolf's Den and a few other places. This isn't exactly the same material as the Black/Bloodstone. The basic ingredient material is the same, which could account for the similarities in look, but the huge difference is the cooling process. In Westeros the cooling process went much faster and this has indeed had it's impact on the definitive outcome of this the material. You might think i'm a bit cukoo, but this too is ... dragonglass aka obsidian. Obsidian is formed through  felsic lava ( felsic refers to those rocks rich in silicate minerals, magma, and rocks which are enriched in the lighter elements such as silicon, oxygen, aluminium, sodium,  and potassium.) cools rapidly with a minimum of crystal growth. And that is likely what did happen with the meteorites that came from the explosion of the fiery moon and that landed near Westeros. We have meteorites from a fiery moon coming at high speeds towards Westeros, so it's quite safe to assume that, although the cores of some pieces might not  be glowing hot and in a highly viscous state, the outside of these rocks surely would have been. 

Upon landing in or  near Westeros, the impacts of these meteorite pieces causes eartquakes and especially tsunamis which flooded quite deep land inward. Conclusion... there was a fast cooling process. And this got even more reinforced by... the coming of winter. 

 

However, the meteorite rain might also have had some other implacations too. It is indeed possible that it was also responsible for the birth of the 'dragon of the sea' aka the Kraken. but since we know little about the lifespan and reproduction of the Kraken, it's not sure if they would be able to survive for a very long time or if it is more likely that they would adapt to the fauna of earth. One thing that does become more plausible and even more likely was the notions in Septon Barth's book 'Dragons, Wyrms and Wyvern: Their Unnatural History' that refered to the dragon-like creatures that have lived in Westeros s a long time ago. Especially the wyrms (which are also called European dragons and which had bat-like wings, and are fire breathing) and wyverns (which are more some kind of winged reptilian creatures, often non-fire breathing, buth they can have sea-variants, which are called sea-wyvern and have more of a fishtail) might have come to existence through this event. Both wyrms and wyvern often are, despite that they are winged creatures, often more bound to their underground lairs. I do wish to mention them because they have been hinted at in the books. And they might also be an explanation to the hot waters in the well at Winterfell and underneath the God's Eye. However, it's not even sure that, if there are still wyrms or wyverns alive somewhere, that they nescesarilly did come from the volcanic material. It could also be that the creation of dragons happend the other way around, which could mean that some pre-existing wyrms or wyverns on Planetos were affected by the meteorite material, which triggered them to evolve into dragons. When it comes to the real origins of dragons or the eventual existence of wyrms and wyverns, we often don't have much solid sources to go on. The most solid source seams to be the writings of septon Barth, which was marked as being heresy. And although his writings seem to be a good source to get some more information, even those seem to only give a some vague clues, rather than give us much solid info on what came first and how one thing influenced another. There are however also the children's stories about Mad Danelle Lothson from Harrenhal and her 'bats' that came to take naughty children... Mighty big  bats, is what i'm thinking... sounds more like small wyrm- or wyvernlike creatures if they can actually carry a child. And then there are also the skeletons that Bran sees in the cave while he's in the body of Hodor. There he seems to describe dragon/bat -like skeletons withough a head. ... Another indication there might have been wyrms or wyverns. But nothing really conclusive. 

 

 

So... now that this is all a bit clear. Back to the explanation of the 'pale stone'. I hope you aren't too misguided to dismiss this stone as a as a 'Bloodstone' too. However, i must admit that this pale variant is a Bloodstone of a whole diffent order. But even here the basic ingredient for the formation of this stone, was again the same meteorite material  from the Hammer of the Waters. However, what happened during the formation proces was likely a bit more complex. It's easy to accept that an event like the 'Hammer of the Waters'  did destroy the Arm of Dorne, it's often given as the reason of the whole event. And it's not unlikely that the impact was much bigger than just the Breaking of the arm. Thing is however, that i think we should go look a bit closer to what we can detect. It looks to me that there is some info here and there that is hidden. As i said above, one of the consequences of the meteorite rain likely was that it provoked tsunamis and thus the lower parts of the land of Westeros got flooded. The flooding of the land, and thus the presence of large volumes of water might exactly be playing a large factor in the different cooling proces of the meteorite material that fell down in Westeros compared to the material that fell down in volcanic regions like Valyria and other parts of the world. As a matter of fact, the different impacts and developments of the same material might actually be partially at the foundation of some of the different stories we hear. It's easy to dismiss this as a purely cultural phenomenon, but there might also be a physical and even 'chemical' ground to it. It would make sense that although there is a common chemical material that 'lands' in all the regions of the world, that this material would interact differently to the different physical and chemical situations that are present at each region it lands in. Or, in other words, yes it's likely that it does make a diffence if the same meteorite material lands in the sea or in a volcano, because this might affect the properties of this material quite a lot. And after that has happened, it always depends on how the different indiviuals, groups and cultures act  and interact with the materials that stem from these events. This just is to say that, even though the 'Hammer of the Waters' event, and thus the explosion of the Second moon, might have had the landing of the meteor material on Planetos as a consequence, it's likely that although this impacted Planetos severely (as the Long Night defenitely is a huge indication of that) , it might have had totally different developments throughout Planetos.

So even if the explosion of the Second moon symbolically seems to be linked to 'the Bloodstone Emperor' myth, we should remain cautious to strictly link it to properties only referencing the properties and magic of 'fire' or 'shadow'. It is much more likely that the 'cataclysmic' event gave birth to several different consequences simultaneously. And thus we should also remain very cautious to link this event strictly to one form of 'chemical', 'physical', 'magical', or even 'cultural' and 'mythical' implication. Even though this event is likely to have had a severe impact on 'the birth of dragons', or 'the bloodstone', we should be ware not to solely focus on an actual 'birth' or 'dragon' or 'bloodstone' because of it's 'symbolism' being obvious. For instance, it was mentioned in other theories that there is indeed a difference  between 'fire' and 'shadow' magic, in the way that both might use a term like the 'light' (or Lord of Light), but the implications might be very different because 'fire' is the actual 'light' and 'shadow' is rather indicating that something is 'blocking the light'. 

 

Now the Pale Stone as a 'Bloodstone' is something that is possible too. And this becomes much more clear when we look at the region of Dorne. There is something very odd going on in the Dornish landscape. Here we see no trees but  lots of sand and rock filled landscapes. In the books we get the explanation that the First Men did use a lot of wood, and thus the  killing a lot of the forests in Dorne seems a logical explanationat at first. But this is only at first. This seems logical because we know the First Men entered Westeros trough the Arm of Dorne. So the assumption of them killing a lot of forests upon arrival in Dorne, kind of seems a logical assumption. But is it actually?  I mean if we look at the timeline we see that the 'Breaking' happened relatively short after the arrival of the First Men in Westeros. And although there is a mention of the First Men killing lots of trees and also 'battling ' the CotF, the volumes of deforestation that should have happened in such a relatively short time span are really massive. So massive that it even doesn't add up. It doesn't make much sense at all, since the First Men didn't have sufficient enough tools to do this. For this to be explained as an effect of the human impact of deforestation on the landscape it would have to have happened after the 'Breaking'. But this doesn't seem to add up too much either, since we do get a lot of information of the fighting that went on in Dorne, like Nymeria's War and such, but little on what human impact could have caused this. Ofcourse the 'Breaking' itself seems a much more viable option. This would put the absence of trees in the Dornish region in totally different context. It does seem likelier that the massive flooding and the huge impact(s) of water in this region would deliver a much more matching outcome. The 'Breaking' would indeed result in lots of  rocky material and huge masses of sea water that is forcibly looking for a place to go, and invades the land in quite a devastating way. Now that seems to be a much more reasonable explanation for the volume of deforestation that we're seeing in the region of Dorne. 

 

So it's not totally unreasonable to say that the coming of the First Men and their battles with the CotF eventually were responsible for the wastelands in Dorne. However, the level of deforestation and the resulting desertlands are not a direct consequence of the human impact on the land of Dorne. It is more likely  that the flooding of Dorne after the breaking is reponsible for the main volume the deforestation of this scale. It always remains very plausible that it was the Rhoynar and Andals and those that came to the region after them, that finally destroyed the already scarce trees that were left. This includes ofcourse Weirwood Trees, for which especially the Andals have shown to have no respect at all. It was their coming, and the coming of iron to Westeros that actually created the situation for the CotF to go into hiding. 

 

This is actually all important to start to see how the Pale Stone is quite important and how it is likely to have been created. During the Hammer of the Waters event Dorne was still an area that had lots of vegetation and forests, among these forests, there were likely to be found quite a lot of Weirwood trees too. And the Weirwood tree, as it grows older, is said to turn into stone, or atleast objects that are made of Weirwood. We also know that the Weirwood is a tree with quite some amazing magical properties tied to it. Also properties that seem to be connected to some blood sacifices. It's remarkable how many of the blood sacrifices that relate to Weirwood trees are a connected with the idea of 'justice' being done. We don't see 'kinslaying', nor do we see much random sacrifices taking place. A blood sacifice in front of a Weirwood tree often has more to it than just another random blood sacrifice to appease the 'Old Gods'. It's not really something that is explicitly said, but it is implied by the fact that these sacrifices often don't just seem to be presented as random either. 

They more often come when there's a story to it, which implies often there is a 'foe' who 'deserved to die' aka 'justice being done'. 

 

Now let's look at Starfall and see that it's location is quite excellent in regards to the rest of Dorne to shape some 'special' conditions during the 'Hammer of the Waters' event. We've established that Dorne likely had forests during the time prior to 'the Breaking', and this likely would include Starfall as well.  Now let's see that it is likely that the meteor material that rained down on the Arm of Dorne and and Dorne  itself, is likely to have cause quite some imediate devastation to these forests, but due to the mix of shocks on land, and likely due to other meteors hitting the sea water gave enough power to the sea water to swipe a lot of these forests away with brute force. In contrast with this, Starfall is at the edge of all this. So here it's more likely  that the current was not at all that strong (maybe also the land high enough, and some other possible conditions) to swipe away the land. But on this land there might have been forest, especially there's a possibility of there being one or more Weirwood trees present. If the meteor material came crashing down on Weirwood, this might give a serious 'chemo-magical' reaction and cause different properties to develop. On top of this, It's not only  the intense force of the hot meteor material hitting the weirwood that seems to have been required  to create this Pale Stone, but the water seems to have played a role as well. In the further creation of this stone. Again the type of cooling down process, and maybe even the way of how the waves bashed on it and gradually cooled it down in a very intense way for brief periods, could have had it's effects. 

 

There is atleast one other place that i know of that seems to corroberate this kind of scenario for the creation of this Pale Stone. That place is the Iron Islands. We know the Ironborn migrated to the islands and founded their own seperate religion. The Seastone chair was already there when they arrived.  And the Seastone chair may be 'oily black', which is likely more of an indication that it's obsidian. It's not the Seastone chair that interests us, it only confirms the presence of meteor material that was cooled fast and trurned into dragonglass. What is more interesting are the descriptions of the grey/pale statute of the 'bones of the Kraken' that are present on the Iron Islands. The descriptions seem to fit entirely with the harsh 'sea religion' of the Iron Islands, but if you look more carefully, there is are more grey/pale stones to be found as well as the idea that that skeleton of the 'Kraken' are more likely to be Weirwood trees turned to stone. And here again we see a location where the combination of the meteor material, weirwood tree, sea water, the bashing of the water, and its effects on the cooling down process might have played an important role in the formation of 'Pale Stone'. 

What i am quite sure of is that the formation of this kind of  'Pale Stone' would be the indication of a primary forging in which 'smoke' and 'salt' do play a crucial role, but only to result in a stone. It also is a combination of chemical and magical conditions. 

 

Now this only accounts for the existence and coming to life of the stone. However a stone doesn't turn into a sword just like that. It's here that we might find a solution for the link between the Targaryens and the House Dayne that has nothing to do with being family. It's possible that the colour of their eyes is linked to the forging of those the blades themselves. I know that it is a bit crackpot, but this is afterall a nice fantasy universe, and it's not all that unreasonable that the connection between their specific  eye and hair colour has more to do with the forging or witnessing the forging of theses blades and the impact that this process had on their ancestors. The impact may have been this big that it changed parts of the genetic code of their ancestors and has been handed down genetically ever since that change. This would also make a link between the 'types of bloodstone', the forging of the blades and the impact of this on the genetic code, as well as making 'blood' and 'bloodline' quite relevant again. 

Another something that might be relevant here is that with this there might also be a link between the 'madness' of the Targaryens and the possibility that this exists as well within the bloodline of House Dayne. Yes, the possibility of 'moon-sickness', 'luna-cy' due to the origins of the meteor material can be of a certain importance. It could be that it's the gounds for the traditions of  House Dayne to let the inheritance of the sword in the care of the 'most worthy'  to wield it instead of the first born. And the fact that there is Weirwood in the composition of the stone from which the blade is forged, would make it likely that one of the magical properties of the sword could be that the sword picks the one most fit to be 'Sword of the morning', and thus the person of  House Dayne who is 'less likely to be prone to moon sickness'. 

 

I would also want to stipulate that i'm not saying that the Daynes carved or forged the blade 'Dawn' themselves, it might be possible. But since they are from the First Men, the forging could have taken place on the Isle of Faces, maybe as a consequence of the Pact.  Maybe the it wasn't the forging as much as the wielding the sword that has left a genetic impact on the looks of themembers of House Dayne. 

It's also possible that the link between the pale stone of House Dayne, the pale stones of the Iron Islands and the Isle of Faces is different is a different one. The link between the stone of Starfall  and the Iron Islands seems to indicate that the combination of meteor material, Weirwood and seawater play a role in the creation of the pale stone. And in some way i'd  expect a similar result  at the Isle of Faces, but what is strange here is that there seem to be Weirwoods growing on that meteor again and that is a bit of a mystery to me. then again the CotF knew how to plant Weirwoods, so it's still possible that also as a part of the pact the First Men and the CotF colaborated to create the sanctuary on top and around the meteor. It's not unlikely however that the House Dayne learned some techniques of forging throught the Roynar in Dorne. Don't forget that the Roynar fled from the Valyrian Freehold, so there always is a small posibility  that some texts or knowledge got transported about the forging of Valyrian Steel and that it somehow made it to House Dayne, although all of that does seems highly unlikely because it would raise the question why the Daynes haven't exploited this forging technique for making Valyrian or other kinds of steel blades? 

 

 

 

Uhm... whoops... it seems i got carried away in my research of things.  LOL

[The Green King]

Following to what i wrote above, the second Hammer of the Waters event seems to indicate that the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne wasn't enough for the CotF. It gives clarity to their motive of trying to not only 'create' paradise on earth (which again evokes Avalon/ Tir Na nOg/ The Fortunate Isles/ Atlantis...) but also 'maintain' it.  This second attempt  to break Westeros, can be seen as the motive of the CotF to break the isle in parts, as to try and save their 'harmonious island', by litterally 'breaking free'. However, the second attempt 'fails' because the power it would require would likely be similar to the first 'breaking'. But they know/learned that the first breaking actually had many serious unforseen side effects. 

 

Seen in this light Jon Snow is actually the culmination of a full circle event. He's the fruit of the Wolf (who has it's origin in the start of the events leading up to the event of the 'Hammer of the Watars') and the Dragon (all what was caused by the event). 

[The Green King]

The portal guardian implies the portal, but it's the tower not the door that is relevant. These Celtic porter scenes seem to derive from the idea of an otherworld guardian, preventing the unworthy from the mystery achievement of an otherworld journey. We don't need the ToJ to be a literal otherworld any more than we need a perfect match for King Arthur - GRRM appropriates a lot of mythic imagery, but he doesn't duplicate myths so much as employ their symbolism for his own storytelling.
 

 

At first glance i would indeed agree that it's only the tower that is relevant. The tower as indication. But in this case it really begs the question what is indicated, and even who is indicating what?  Yes i know that porter scenes are usually confusing, however i was actually thinking if the inversion of the porter scene wasn't indicating inversion of the directionality as well, making that it might not be only isn't Ned and his men who want to get into the Tower, but rather the 3KG that actually are the ones that are being tested if they are worthy for the mystery achievement of an otherworld journey. By letting their identities 'be dead' but  entering the otherworld journey to accomplish a mystery achievement, this could work for the 3KG. That is the symbolical level. However they do need something in return for that to be possible too. In this scene, where they are the 'guardians' and the 'Kingsguard', what they need most of all for that to happen, is to be relieved of their duties. 

 

That's why the specific appropriation of a porter scene and the inversion of the dialogue might be important here. 

 

 

 

AGoT ch. 39 said

t would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

That's clear that at the very least Martyn Cassel had been buried in those cairns, and the rest of passage does seem to indicate that the other eight died too. GRRM was asked at a recent Con about who survived the ToJ and said that only "two men" did. All that along with the way the events at the ToJ are presented as being very tragic make it unlikely to me that there are empty cairns.

 

 

Yes indeed that is what we are led to believe. However, i'm not entirely convinced. It could be a little trick too, just to let us blieve it a bit more that they actually are dead, only to let them reemerge a lot later in the story. It would even be quite justified to keep the mystery of ToJ a bit more mysterious. 

The memory for Ned is going to be bitter anyway you look at it. It's linked to the death of his sister Lyanna and the promise of taking on the duty of raising Jon as his own as well as keeping the secret of his parentage. And all of this is his burden to carry alone, even though it does cause upset around him. 

The bloodyness of the stones, the building of cairns, and the perishing of Martyn Cassel and the rest, do seem to mean there actually was a fight in which only two lived to ride away. And it sure could be that it was just that what happened there. The fact that Martyn Cassel 'perished with the rest of them', could still remind Ned of the oath he made never to tell. Martyn Cassel did perish from Ned's life that day, from the moment he took an oath to agree with a similar plan. Martyn Cassel is would indeed have vanished from Planetos. And to everyone who wanted to know about Martyn Cassel or the others involved, they all are burried there. The bloodyness of the stones... well that is indeed more indicative of  actual death(s). Which is very possible to have  happened there. Just don't forget that the bloodyness might more refer to Lyanna's death as well and that the stones fo the ToJ also are reddish. 

I know Ned's thoughts as good as seal the deal on they idea of the death of all at the ToJ, except Ned  and Howland. I just am trying to keep an open mind. It could be a strory trick. 

 

Yes, it's certainly interesting that Ned takes on the role of gatekeeper himself here. His words come across as being a challenge, but he's the one in the position to be making that challenge. The 3KG must answer to him, because he's the one who's won the war. I don't think you can put the fight on Ned's shoulders though. Gerold's "The Kingsguard does not flee" pretty much says that the fight is inevitable, and it's Arthur who draws his sword and says "And now it begins". I dealt with the concept of intransigence because I think that's vital to understanding what happened at the ToJ -- neither side really wanted to fight, but they ended up fighting anyway. There seems to have been some difference between them, which to both parties regret they could not resolve.

 

The gatekeeper role of Ned seems to me an indication of much more that is going on. It suggests that the directionality of the ones that want to enter the otherworld are the 3KG. They are obligated by their oaths to protect the King, his family and their secrets. Hence they can't escape to be the guardians of this tower. Although, they don't seem to want to fight Ned and his men either. The condition here is that if  they want to enter the otherworld, someone should be willing to relieve them from their duties. And they don't flee at all, they don't back down, they will fight if needed -which is exactly how they would prove that they are worthy of an otherworld journey- they will stick to their duty and their oaths even if that does mean that all ends here, in this battle none of them want to fight. That is what they prove. True, the swords are even drawn, but i'd like to remind you that we still don't see the fight. We do seem to be privvy to it's start. Nobody says that it actually went further then this. We see a before and an after, and that is what makes this scene so damn mysterious and. I didn't read the  "And now it begins' of Arthur and the "Now it ends'  of Ned as a mere reference to the fight, i did at first of course. But then I read it in a much larger symbolic context of the changing of power. And even 'allegiences', the opening of a door to the deeper meaning. It elevates it to a higher level, because for Ned the whole arc from the Tourney at Harrenhal through Robert's Rebellion till this point was about rebelling against the 'Mad King' who is responsible for the deaths of his father and brother, triggered by the kidnapping of his sister, and here that shifts into someting that is likely to be entirely different. He get's to know the true cause of 'the kidnapping'. It also here that his allegiance to his 'friend  Robert' shifts into his 'possible threat Robert'. What makes this scene so odd is that he is presented as the gatekeeper but then shifts into the 'the grail maiden' function himself. The oddity being that he goes from being one kind of guardian to another elevated kind of guardian. But the same might be true for Arthur and the other KG. Arthur's arc maybe  beginning, of that what lies beyond anything known as 'Arthur Dayne, member of the Kingsguard, Sword of the Morning', this is where he actually might be able to cross into that 'otherworld'. That too would be an elevation. The relief of his duties and the abandonment of his/ their former life. This is the symbolism that i found present in this scene. That of the changing of the guard, And that is the stangest thing about the the 3KG too: yes they seem to be put there as some kind of grail maidens, only... they don't really seem to defend that grail. They only will if it's eventually needed.  The genius here is that, although it still is a dream of course, the fight that is about to burst, gets interrupted by Lyanna. And this is the wondrous part about this scene... they did not flee, and might actually have proved themselves worthy. Yet, they didn't 'guard that tower and its secret tall that firmly either. Which ultimately raises the question if a fight and a defense is still needed? 

 

GRRM has described the Others as being like Sidhe, which are pretty much an early modern recension of the Tuatha de Danaan. The CoTF do seem much more like the classic people of the mounds though, I agree. Certainly ASOIAF's pseudo-history of invasions has some similarities to the waves of invaders in Irish legend. I'm very wary of trying to make any of these parallels fit too well, though.

 

Yes, the Others are Sidhe, but not really Tuatha De Danann potential. The Tuatha De Danann are the ones that hid in Nature. Before the Tuatha De Danann invaded, the Firbolg resided there. The Firbolg were Sidhe too, they both stemmed from the people of Nemed, but had evolved differently. Ultimately it came to a battle, in which the Tuatha De Danann were victorious anddrove the Firbolg away. Well not completely, but the Tuatha apointed them a place to reside.So the CotF have more in common withthe Tuatha De Danann After the Tuatha De Danann it's the Milesians that invade, again they bear a resemblance in charactistics with the First Men. Thusfar it resembles the Irish invasion myths. The Ironborn seem to be a bit of a contraction between the mythical Fomorians and the Vikings. But from Roynar and  the Andals on we do seem to get a big shift towards historical medieval Britain, rather than a continuation of the Irish invasion myths. Especially the Andals with the introduction of the Faith and and the ignorance towards the local customs echoes the Saxons in Britain and the time of early christianity. Of course i to am wary to not stick too close to these one-on-one, but i do see the references to each of them, or atleast a ton evocations of a certain people and time and traits there of that are being referenced as well as played with. It's also indicative that the place of the Vale on the map of Westeros is an upside down Ireland that is stuck to the UK on the other side of where it's suposed to be. Also suggesting the contraction of all of the older Celtic material, which is often better preserved in the Irish myths, and the medieval material,  like the Arturian Legends in different forms, with on top of that all the different influences that came from the different parts of the mainland. 

 

To me, it looks like it that the CotF and the Others both are Sidhe, just like the the Tuatha De Danann and the Firbolg. However GRRM does seem to have toyed it around into making the Others (Firbolg) some form of Winter banshees (ban-sidhe) that threaten to invade the 'Summer County'. Yet inside the 'Summer County' (Westeros) you also see the Winter and Summer King dynamics being played out, albeit more on the level of the humans. 

 

Same with the evocations of the Arthurian symbolism like the Round Table. In some way all the seats of the First Men and some important houses seem to evoke some 'round table' of Westeros too. Even to the point where you could say that in this bigger form 'round table/ council' it is House Harrenhal that resembles a strange kind of Perilous Seat, and the Iron Throne is indeed the King's Seat at that round table. But inside King's Landing you also have the evocation of the Round Table (actually the Round Room) of the Kingsguard, here the seat of Merlin is echoed through the Weirwood table, but from this pov it most often seems that the Iron Throne doesn't just resemble the King's Seat, but also the Perilous Seat. 

 

Don't forget that the BwB deferred to the Ghost of High Heart's wisdom, and she's very much a part of the old magic. Your Robin Hood connections are a very interesting one, and worthy of exploration. Anguy seems like a stock Sherwood transplant, for example. I think it's worth keeping in mind that while Robin was identified as a disaffected nobleman, there seems to be a Robin Goodfellow influence too. Robin Hood's skills are very much the skills of the earth and what GRRM would call the smallfolk, and so he does represent a kind of war between the forces of nature and the Norman aristocracy as man-above-nature. Howland certainly has some very Robin Hood characteristics, I agree.

 

The BwB is an odd construction, but what does kind of make me wary of them is that they are so based on vengange. Although i do like the exploits, what is alarming to me is the presence of Lady Stoneheart (an undead) and Thoros of Myr, both kind of pulling the strings. The  ghost of High Heart is indeed  a connection to Old Magic, but then again she does seem to be a Witch, and insome way i sense she's getting some of her magic through Weirwood dreams. I'm a bit undecided. but i think they ultimately are the second of three brotherhoods that we might get tot see.  Oh yes, lovely remark about the Robin Goodfellow component, that would indeed fit in with Lady Stoneheart as a 'White Lady' or better a disturbed ghost.  Still to the Robin Hood character(s) there are different options. Being presented in a form of disaffected nobleman is a bit of a general theme, but it's the way of how they fight and what for that defines the identity of different kind of Robin Hood types. You have the type that is simply a gang of thieves that envisions the nobility, they don't really steal from the poor, but they often steal more for theirselves then for the smallfolk. 

There is also the type that is closer to the smalfolk, but is indeed acting as a gang of forest rebels that is quite cunning but abrasive. Causing turmoil and disturbance is their goal. Not  quite unlike the Bwb. And then there is also the version of the even more close to nature, more politically oriented 'guerillia' with a good heart. The last often with a bigger focus on the rebellion against any authority that is affiliated with the raining ursurper king, often also with a dash of religous component. There is also bit stricter 'mission' and 'code'. Their 'political mission' is often closer to the defense of the realm through a well aimed 'guerilla-opposition' and in support of the 'return of a just king'. 

That are the literary variations, atleast the three main ones. In the end it's all very doubtfull too, since the name 'Robin Hood' likely existed before the actual historical person it could have indicated. The name Robin Hood, was sometimes used to point out the fact that the person was an outlaw. 

Sherwood forest was likely not even the place where the most resembling historical person/gang operated. That was higher up, more in the regions of York. I am however hoping that, since GRRM has already evoked the 'Robin Hood' legend, and he often works with the number 3, that we do still get another version that ties in even better. 

Howland Reed is indeed in many ways close to a kind of Robin Hood variation. 

 

 

 

The reason that i think that Arthur Dayne might not have died, is also the reason he had a sad smile. 

It's not just the prospect of the fight they don't want to fight, i suspect him to have another motive. Being here after the birth of the child of Lyanna, might have reminded him of  his own fatherhood. Yes i suspect him to be the father of Gerold Darkstar Dayne, rather than being his uncle. It might seem weird, but it's actually not as weird as you think. If you look at the age of Gerold than he should have been born between 270 and 274 AL. It's known that Rhaella and AerysII had quite some trouble with the conception of children after Rhaegar. However Rhaella was pregnant several times, and often there were dramatic consequences. But in 270 AL it's noted that her baby was 'stillborn', but further there is little known. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the birth of Gerold Darkstar Dayne. It would fit and explain a lot. It also would fit the motif of the Atrurian Legend. And it would be so masterful to see Arthur Dayne as Lancelot. 

And if you think of it, it's not really such a weird idea that he and Rhaella might have had something. He is often described as a good and kind character, which gives her, definitely with a husband like AerysII, quite some possibility to want to give in in any notion of kindness, love or even some brief romance. However if she did get pregnant the best option for the child was still to not be around King's Landing once it was born. Imediately after the birth of the child, it would have to have been smuggled away to the Cadet Branch of House Dayne (High Hermitage), while anouncing it was a stillbirth. I mean it could work. 

And what let's me suspect that Gerold might be the son of Arthur and Rhaella? Well first of all... his looks. I found Gerold Dayne a fascinating character, and actually somewhat a mystery. I really wondered what he was all about and especially with his looks  it was kind o strange. The Dayne's we know seem to have violet eyes, which is lighter than the dark purple eyes of Gerold. First i tought he might have been Ashara's son, but no matter how i looked at it wasn't really likely. Until it hit me that i actually never suspected Arthur Dayne 'the perfect knight'. When looked for it, it just struck me that te darker eyes might be an indication that this is more an eye colour fitting of the Targaryen. Rhaella + Arthur = Gerold, does make sense. It's quite possible. And i think that it would have been best that if it is true, it would have been best to get the child away as fast as possible. The risk of exposure would have been big., something was likely to go wrong if he stayed, and with a Mad King like AerysII, it's not a wise idea at all to keep the boy around while there is such a risk. If Rhaella regretted her unfaithfulness, the boy would be a constant reminder. But even if she didn't regret it, and maybe even loved Arthur, it still would have been best for his and the boy's sake that he would have been carried off fast. And giving up the baby as being stillborn is the best excuse. 

 

Often when babies are stillborn, there is an indication of the sex of the child, here there wasn't. If this is true it also would explain his'Darkstar' name, as well as some of his motives. It would indeed be indicating a Black Hole Moon of the Starfall knight known as the 'Sword of the Morning'. This also relates to the hidden aspects of Gerolds conception and parentage where you would least expect them. And his actions in Dorne either as an attempt at vengeance, or as a way to get closer to the throne, both are valid. But it's sure that if his going  along with Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella and thus have influence was the goal, it's not so sure that his going along with that was intended to play in Arainne's benefit or rather in his in a longer run. His maming of Myrcella might either have been an attempt to save her from intoxiction by another killer, or an actual attack on her life that was botched. However you take it, he just got so much more intriguing in my eyes. 

 

The idea of Arthur surviving ToJ, might hint at the Lancelot story in which Lancelot 'retires' from his duty as a knight of the round table to go live in penitence in a hermitage for the remainder of his life. Finally he returns as a priest to later conduct the last rites over Guinevere's dead body. In Westeros however, that might not be so interesting. It would however be much more fun to see him as the 'High Sparrow'  and cause Cercei's further demise, although that might be too much of a good thing. ;)

 

Guinevere became an abbess before she died... i could dig Rhaella as a silent sister too,

Maybe Arthur as High Sparrow?   :D

[sweetsunray]

The Ghost of High Heart scenes are very reminiscint of the dead seeress Odin visits in the underworld to consult. In the poetic edda of Baldr's dream and Voluspa (a quick google will give you a link to translated versions, and you'll know what I mean), Odin seeks news and propehcy with a dead seeress. He resurrects her from her grave to talk to him. After she gives him news, tells him she knows about what has happened in the past and recently, including very personal information about Odin (where his sacrificed eye is hidden for example), Odin gives her gifts, after which she proceeds with telling him prophecy. Both news and prophecy she sais with words as "I have seen...", never "I have heard". Since she was dead, she must have seen it in her sleep of death. At the end she'll tell Odin off, so she can go back to her sleep fo death. 

 

The interaction between the BwB and GoHH is similar. She starts by telling the news, and ends with prophecies, and all these she knows from dreams in her sleep. GoHH wants a gift for her news and an ending gift after her prophetic part. Wine is the gift for her news. A song to put her back to sleep is the gift after the prophetic part. If there's no song to be had, she desires a kiss.

 

The wine represents the mead of poetry. This mead was created by dwarfs after they killed the most knowledgeable man who could answer any question, from the man's blood. The giant whose father had been killed by the dwarfs as well procured the mead, until eventually Odin managed to steal it and take it back with him to his realm where he spewed it back into vats. Odin doesn't eat, but he drinks the mead of poetry, which is said to teach both poetry as well as knowledge. As Odin dropped some of the mead onto earth as he carried the mead back to his realm, this was the source for humans to learn to make poetry themselves. A kiss may be something sexual, but it's also related to death. It's the last kiss rite that resurrects Beric. And there's the real world connotation of the kiss of death.

 

The BwB do not need a porter scene to enter High Heart, because the Riverlands actually represents the underworld, Niflheim. Nifleim is the misty land of frozen rivers (it has 9 rivers). One of Yggdrasil's roots end in Hel, the underworld location that is part of Niflheim. Hollow Hil represents Hel the location. Hel the location is ruled by Hel the person/goddess. She is Loki's daughter, and became ruler of Niflheim after she was thrown into one of Niflheim's rivers. Cat's corpse is thrown into the Green Fork of the Riverlands. Hel looks half blue/black and half human flesh (she's a corpse in other words), fitting nicely with LS' description. So, the BwB are already part of the underworld. They don't need porter scenes to enter anymore.

 

Odin is the god of resurrection and death, especially that of hanging. He hung himself as a sacrifice to Yggdrasil in order to look down into the well of knowledge and learn the runes. A poetic edda with Odin as speaker includes verses of Odin talking abour a rune that allows him to resurrect hanged men. LS hanging Freys from trees is a reference to Odin's hanging way.

 

As for the other BwB members, like Anguy -

 

When Arya first meets Tom, Lem and Anguy we actually witness a re-enactment of the first 3 stanzas and a hidden stanza of the "bear and the maiden fair" song. The first half of that song actually serves as a codex of a ritualistic bear hunt, performed by 3 hunters. The shaman-hunter identifies which bear they will hunt. The first stanza in the song is the identification part. Tom is the shaman. The hunters then go to the bear's den, and the bear must be woken up and lured out of his den. Gendry is sleeping when Arya hears Tom's singing, has Hot Pie wake him up and have them hide behind the wall of the ruins. The 3 hunters talk amongst each other, but loud enough to overhear, in order to lure Gendry, Hot Pie and Arya out of hiding. They even actually say there might be a "bear" hiding behind the wall.

 

When the bear comes out, the hunters and bear must exchange introductions and the bear must be invited to the village. The second stanza of the bear-song is about the invitation to a fair and the bear telling the hunters who he is. Once Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie come out of hiding the BwB push for them to identify themselves, while they also get an invitation to an Inn (which would be the fair).

 

Before the bear is brought to the feast at the village, he's actually killed. Once killed the 3 hunters carry him back to the village with pomp and music, pretending they are friends, innocent, the bear is still alive (his spirit supposedly is). The bear kill stanza is missing in the song. But you can notice a glitch between stanza 2 and stanza 3. In stanza 2 the bear says, "The fair? But I'm a bear!", and yet in stanza 3 we see him dancing to the fair with 3 boys and a goat despite his earlier protest. The bear-song does not explain how the bear was convinced to come along, though the second half elaborates on how the bear convinces the maiden to wed him. So, the bear was killed between stanza 2 and 3 of the song. In the meeting scene between Arya & Co and Tom & Co, the hidden stanza is re-enacted with the symbolical kill of Anguy shooting arrows at Arya. Arya concedes to come to the Inn afterwards. And on their merry way to the Inn, Hot Pie sings lustily along with Tom (and they sing the bear-song).

 

Stanza 3 of the bear-song identifies the hunters. In the song they are not called "hunters" but "boys". When Finns brought their ritually killed bear to the village, they wanted to avoid the bear spirit to take revenge on them (adn their kin) if it realized it was dead. They did this by lying who they were, scapegoating others, like "We're boys from Sweden." "Boys" are innocent, hence the song says "3 boys". And the "goat" is the scapegoat. If the bear in the song were to realize he was killed, the 3 "boys" can say it was an accident and that the "goat" killed him. We see this reflected again at Craster's keep, where Craster recently has hnted/trapped/caught a bear, hung the bear skull at the gate, but there's still flesh on it. At the other side of the gate hang's a ram's skull. The ram's skull is there so Craster can say the ram killed him. That Tom, Anguy and Lem are hunters is shown to us on the road to the Inn. Tom the shaman-hunter flushes out ducks, Anguy shoots them, Lem retrieves the hunted duck. Bears were hunted not for their meat, but to procure the bear's blessing to have good game hunting the rest of the year. The bear hunt occurred only once a year, and only one bear a village. Once, Tom & Co procured Arya & Co, they had immediate game-hunting success.

 

Jack-Be-Lucky is one eyed -> Odin reference. Beric used to be the Lightning Lord, but he has sacrificed his eye, sits on stairs amidst weirwood roots like it's a throne, and he's resurrected. He's another Odin figure. Tom is a poet, also Odin related.