How to solve this inconsistency concerning Yi Ti

[Free Northman Reborn]

Give me any case of inconsistency regarding the canon timeline and I will show you what is wrong about it. I am that confident about the canon timeline being true. George decided to throw in some ambiguity only after realizing that he was being too precise about things that happened thousands of years ago. But that does not mean that his original design was changed. He only muddied the waters a little to make the story more realistic.

The original Andal invasion date of 6000 years ago is pretty much disproven by now without a doubt.

[Mithras]

The original Andal invasion date of 6000 years ago is pretty much disproven by now without a doubt.

How so?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How so?

For instance, your own claim that the Valyrians started (only started) to displace them a bit less than 5,000 years ago.

[Lord Varys]

Considering that the Ghiscari War dates come from a civilized portion of the world, it is quite unlikely that their manuscripts and dates are as messed up as those of the Andals who essentially only told pious legends for most of their early history in Westeros. The 5,000 years figure for the fall of Old Ghis are much more trustworthy than 8,000 years for the Long Night.

The Andal invasion about 6,000 years ago doesn't make much sense - it didn't even back in AGoT where it is claimed that Alyssa Arryn lived 6,000 years ago, too. But it is quite clear that she would only have lived after the Andal conquest of the Vale, and possibly even only after the construction of the Eyrie. Her story - whatever it is - involves a major tragedy and apparently the extinction of an entire branch of House Arryn, but we don't know anything about this tragedy. If the Andal invasion began 6,000 years ago, then Alyssa would have lived at least 300-500 years later.

It is also a fact that the Andals were fleeing from the Valyrians - unless we don't date back their (presumably) correct dates in favour of the Westerosi fairy-tales Mithras seems to believe in, it makes no sense to assume the Andals fled from the Valyrians before the Valyrians even reached out west.

And then there is the story of the Andal king Qarlon the Great who clearly lived prior to Hugor and the beginning of the Andal migration to Westeros.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Considering that the Ghiscari War dates come from a civilized portion of the world, it is quite unlikely that their manuscripts and dates are as messed up as those of the Andals who essentially only told pious legends for most of their early history in Westeros. The 5,000 years figure for the fall of Old Ghis are much more trustworthy than 8,000 years for the Long Night.

The Andal invasion about 6,000 years ago doesn't make much sense - it didn't even back in AGoT where it is claimed that Alyssa Arryn lived 6,000 years ago, too. But it is quite clear that she would only have lived after the Andal conquest of the Vale, and possibly even only after the construction of the Eyrie. Her story - whatever it is - involves a major tragedy and apparently the extinction of an entire branch of House Arryn, but we don't know anything about this tragedy. If the Andal invasion began 6,000 years ago, then Alyssa would have lived at least 300-500 years later.

It is also a fact that the Andals were fleeing from the Valyrians - unless we don't date back their (presumably) correct dates in favour of the Westerosi fairy-tales Mithras seems to believe in, it makes no sense to assume the Andals fled from the Valyrians before the Valyrians even reached out west.

And then there is the story of the Andal king Qarlon the Great who clearly lived prior to Hugor and the beginning of the Andal migration to Westeros.

OK, I can go with the 5000 year old date for the Ghiscari Wars. In my view the Andal invasion likely occurred over a period from around 3500-2000 years ago. With the earlier date being the arrival of the earliest adventurers, traders and explorers, and 2000 years ago being the completion of the conquest down in Dorne.

[SolomonBlack]

The original Andal invasion date of 6000 years ago is pretty much disproven by now without a doubt.

What's the chapter and verse on this 6000 business anyways because the wiki citation is the older RP which I would basically considered trumped by the True History discussion in ADwD.

Setting the range according to Hoster Blackwood as 4000 or 2000 according to some Maesters. I off hand would be inclined to put Hoster's ramblings as the most authoritative statements since since its explicitly dealing with history (and its ambiguities) as relayed by a history buff at the latest point in the IRL timeline. I would want a Maester or someone like Sam as the source for any overruling statement.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I think probably the most satisfying explanation for the extra time in the Yi Ti dynasty timeline is probably that there were long periods when no single ruler held sway. Seems to fit best with the theme of the central power weakening over time. Probably more "no single ruler" years between dynasties as you approach the present.

[Mithras]

For instance, your own claim that the Valyrians started (only started) to displace them a bit less than 5,000 years ago.

It is also a fact that the Andals were fleeing from the Valyrians - unless we don't date back their (presumably) correct dates in favour of the Westerosi fairy-tales Mithras seems to believe in, it makes no sense to assume the Andals fled from the Valyrians before the Valyrians even reached out west.

Valyrians displacing the Andals is a conjecture of the maesters and I don't think it is true for most of the time. Andals were always migratory people. Apparently, they learned ironworking and maritime technology from the Rhoynar and used it to wipe out pritimitive societies. I think the Andals started exploring the shores and eventually came to Westeros for raid and plunder. And this was long before the Valyrians threatened them. Hugor must be the first legendary raider who found the way to cross the sea, much like Ragnar Lothbrok. And we know what happened after Ragnar led the way, nothwithstanding the possibility that historical Ragnar didnot exist.

The Andal invasion about 6,000 years ago doesn't make much sense - it didn't even back in AGoT where it is claimed that Alyssa Arryn lived 6,000 years ago, too. But it is quite clear that she would only have lived after the Andal conquest of the Vale, and possibly even only after the construction of the Eyrie. Her story - whatever it is - involves a major tragedy and apparently the extinction of an entire branch of House Arryn, but we don't know anything about this tragedy. If the Andal invasion began 6,000 years ago, then Alyssa would have lived at least 300-500 years later.

Your approach is wrong here. The story of Alyssa is a myth about a natural phenomena and it should originate from the First Men much like the myths of the Winged Knight. So, we have the case of an ancient First Men myth being Andalized after the Andals came.

And then there is the story of the Andal king Qarlon the Great who clearly lived prior to Hugor and the beginning of the Andal migration to Westeros.

What makes you think that Qarlon lived prior to Hugor?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, obviously some sources are simply wrong. But I don't understand why you take the most tenuous one and treat it as gospel.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Another clear discrepancy is that it doesn't make sense that the Andals - a more primitive civilization than Ghis, Rhoynar or Valyria - crossed the Narrow Sea with steel weapons 6000 years ago, which is 1000 years before the Ghiscari wars, during which Valyria and Ghis were both still Bronze Age civilizations.

[Mithras]

Another clear discrepancy is that it doesn't make sense that the Andals - a more primitive civilization than Ghis, Rhoynar or Valyria - crossed the Narrow Sea with steel weapons 6000 years ago, which is 1000 years before the Ghiscari wars, during which Valyria and Ghis were both still Bronze Age civilizations.

Jar Har, who exacted tributes from Old Ghis, conquered Leng with "fire and steel."

During the driftwood kings era (long before Urron Greyiron), Joron Blacktyde swept across Arbor with "steel and fire".

Iron is not something unknown and unheard. Iron weapons coexisted with bronze weapons for a long time. At first bronze weapons were superior to iron weapons because the iron working technology was not developed enough and those weapons sucked because of impurities. However, they were far more cheaper than bronze weapons. But if the iron ores at hand are relatively pure, much better iron weapons can be forged. That seems to be the case for the Iron Islands. Their smiths are best in Westeros and in the dawn of days, their "black weapons" were dreaded by the bronze-armed First Men. That is probably the case for Andalos as well. Illyrio has mines in the Flatlands, southern marches of Andalos. There should be more mines in the upper mountains and hills of Andalos. As soon as the Andals drove the Hairy Men away and took those lands, they should have started using some good quality iron ores to make good weapons.

[BitsOfBrains]

Honestly I can't think of a single detail in the worldsteros that matters less than the dates of the emperors of Yi Ti.

There is literally nothing about this that matters in the slightest to the story. Even as a world building nugget it is worthless.

As much as Yi TI is utterly irrelevant and unnecessary to the story, the distant past of Yi Ti is a hundred times more irrelevant.

[SolomonBlack]

Jar Har, who exacted tributes from Old Ghis, conquered Leng with "fire and steel."

During the driftwood kings era (long before Urron Greyiron), Joron Blacktyde swept across Arbor with "steel and fire".

Yi Ti might be different but any written claim about Westeros post-dates the Andals (unless called out as being from runes) so any description of days before Urron Greyiron himself before the Andals IIRC would therefore not be written down and thus most surely subject to error.

You can not take a description of "steel and fire" as rewriting the tale of steel, you need statements explicitly dealing with the matter. So the Rhoynar versus the Andals getting from the Smith is a conflict, a mere description of someone using "steel" before the Andals in Westeros is simply not authoritative.

Mind it could be true its hardly impossible for the Ironborn to have developed it independently or even before the Andals, but its a hypothesis in need of credible evidence.

[Mithras]

Yi Ti might be different but any written claim about Westeros post-dates the Andals (unless called out as being from runes) so any description of days before Urron Greyiron himself before the Andals IIRC would therefore not be written down and thus most surely subject to error.

You can not take a description of "steel and fire" as rewriting the tale of steel, you need statements explicitly dealing with the matter. So the Rhoynar versus the Andals getting from the Smith is a conflict, a mere description of someone using "steel" before the Andals in Westeros is simply not authoritative.

Mind it could be true its hardly impossible for the Ironborn to have developed it independently or even before the Andals, but its a hypothesis in need of credible evidence.

This quote proves you wrong:

Many legends have come down to us through millennia of the salt kings and reavers who made the Sunset Sea their own, men as wild and cruel and fearless as any who have ever lived. Thus we hear of the likes of Torgon the Terrible, Jorl the Whale, Dagon Drumm the necromancer, Hrothgar of Pyke and his kraken-summoning horn, and ragged Ralf of Old Wyk.

Most infamous of all was Balon Blackskin, who fought with an axe in his left hand and a hammer in his right. No weapon made of man could harm him, it was said; swords glanced off and left no mark, and axes shattered against his skin.

Did such men truly walk the earth? It is hard to know since most supposedly lived and died thousands of years before the ironmen learned to write; literacy remains rare in the Iron Islands to this day, and those who have the skill are oft mocked as weaklings or feared as sorcerers. So much of what we know of these demigods of the dawn comes to us from the peoples they plundered and preyed upon, written in the Old Tongue and the runes of the First Men.

The lands the reavers plundered were densely wooded but thinly peopled in those days. Then as now, the ironborn were loath to go too far from the salt waters that sustained them, but they ruled the Sunset Sea from Bear Island and the Frozen Shore down to the Arbor. The feeble fishing boats and trading cogs of the first Men, which seldom ventured out of the sight of land, were no match for the swift longships of the ironmen with their great sails and the banks of oars. And then the battle was joined upon the shores, mighty kings and famous warriors fell before the reavers like wheat before a scythe, in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The simplest way to solve this inconsistency is to simply assume that the colored emperors were not listed in chronological order, or that they were listed in reverse chronological order.

[SolomonBlack]

This quote proves you wrong:

I should have been clearer.

Runes have never been portrayed as any solid body of knowledge just isolated pieces carved on rocks. A deliberate echo of the IRL ones I presume. So more of an art to translate then a sure thing. If you want to date something to the First Men you need to be very specific. As in like "carved on the runes in the barrows outside Winterfell" as translated by Maester/Septon/etc so-and-such. I believe there is one such reference in the world book, maybe others but in general all historical knowledge is suspect.

And your quote doesn't attest to which source it uses for the information you've highlighted either. Nor more pedantically does it say iron. Plus the whole soul drinking thing puts this clearly into more poetic description. Are we to dismiss that but assume clearly the black sword must be steel the topic of discussion? Sure that isn't an entirely unreasonable interpretation, as long as it fits into the larger narrative progress. Otherwise its quite probably just "knights before there were knights" and other such historical errors.

Just in general you seem to be looking at the material with an overly literal eye drawing highly specific conclusions from material that is only supposed to be broadly accurate and wrong on occasion because its written from an in-universe perspective.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

what you think doesn't matter is it contradicts the text. I'm sorry.

If you have read the book then you know that Myr and Pentos have been founded on the places of former Andal settlements, and Qarlon the Great actually ruled all the land later controlled by Pentos which means that neither Pentos nor Myr had yet been founded as Valyrian colonies (the relative closeness of Myr would have put a swift stop to Qarlon's conquest).

No Andal septon in Westeros ever talked about Qarlon the Great - they would, if this guy had lived and reigned after their legendary founding king Hugor of the Hill. Artys Arryn also claims to be descended from Hugor rather than Qarlon - which is another hint that Hugor lived after Qarlon. Artys is virtual nobody before the Battle of the Seven Stars and any claims of his to be descended from some king who lived millennia ago at that time would make no sense.

Alyssa Arryn is a historical person, all the maesters agree on that one. What knowledge do you have that makes you better authority on her existence or her role in history than people actually living in Westeros?

There is also no basis for your assumption that the Andals did ever come as raiders to Westerosi shores long before their migrated there. Why are making this stuff up?

[Mithras]

The simplest way to solve this inconsistency is to simply assume that the colored emperors were not listed in chronological order, or that they were listed in reverse chronological order.

The scarlet emperors are in chronological order and in all the other sections, Kings and Lords were mentioned in chronological order.

[Mithras]

If you have read the book then you know that Myr and Pentos have been founded on the places of former Andal settlements, and Qarlon the Great actually ruled all the land later controlled by Pentos which means that neither Pentos nor Myr had yet been founded as Valyrian colonies (the relative closeness of Myr would have put a swift stop to Qarlon's conquest).

This is a serious mistake. I have the map and Qarlon's Kingdom as described in the World Book reached as far as the headwaters of Upper Rhoyne and Noyne to the south. It does not in any way imply that Pentos did not exist at the time, because Pentos and much of the lands they control now were never in the kingdom of Qarlon. And Pentos was built as a mercantile colony and they intermarried with the invading Andals probably to have a better control on their own lands by winning them as allies and kin instead of enemies. That does not make sense if the entire power of the Andals was broken by the Valyrians and then Pentos was built upon the ashes of Qarlon's Kingdom. There is no need to marry Andal warchiefs in that case.

No Andal septon in Westeros ever talked about Qarlon the Great - they would, if this guy had lived and reigned after their legendary founding king Hugor of the Hill. Artys Arryn also claims to be descended from Hugor rather than Qarlon - which is another hint that Hugor lived after Qarlon. Artys is virtual nobody before the Battle of the Seven Stars and any claims of his to be descended from some king who lived millennia ago at that time would make no sense.

Qarlon is safely dated to have lived in 1800 years ago. So, there is indeed no reason for the septons to talk about this Qarlon the Great because those septons had come to Westeros thousands of years before Qarlon existed.

Alyssa Arryn is a historical person, all the maesters agree on that one. What knowledge do you have that makes you better authority on her existence or her role in history than people actually living in Westeros?

Artys Arryn, the Falcon Knight, was a historical person too. But he was not the Winged Knight, which was a First Men myth that predated him by thousands of years. BTW, I, as a reader of the series, know a lot more than most of the people actually living in Westeros. I know that the ravens were able to speak actual words back in the day, but only Bloodraven and Barth to a degree knew that.

There is also no basis for your assumption that the Andals did ever come as raiders to Westerosi shores long before their migrated there. Why are making this stuff up?

I am not making stuff up. It is the foolish maesters making stuff up. Andals were raiders and slavers in Essos. They had longships. Wolf’s Den was raised to stop such slavers from Essos and some wise maesters claim that these were Andals. You can be sure that Wolf’s Den dates much before than Qarlon. Just open ADwD and reread the account of Ser Bartimus.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Dynasties aren't eternal. There could be small kingdoms or something, similar to the Warring states period of Chinese history, and although unlikely, the Yi Tish dynasties may be newer things, although the Yi Tish people are much older (Long Night), and dynasties didn't show up till later. Maybe control by the Jogos Nhai? Still, bad maths, but what did you expect from fantasy?