Heresy 167

[Voice]

I'm not disagreeing that the man is also important...but to keep this in perspective what is Ne'd mother's name again?????

I disagree.....Daenes the dreamer....Then ontop of that grafting of the Blackwood blood into the line

I see your point wolfmaid, but how did Bran and his siblings inherit magic from Ned's mother, if not from Ned? LOL

And if Daenys the Dreamer spontaneously conceived the ancestors of all Targaryens, you'd have a point, but her father and husband were also Targaryens... and even then, Matthew is correct that all living Targs can only have inherited Targaryen magical abilities from Aegon V, who married a non-Targ.

I think your desire for this to be true is clouding your ability to see it isn't ;)

[Matthew.]

I disagree.....Daenes the dreamer....Then ontop of that grafting of the Blackwood blood into the line

VotFM already beat me to the punch here, but I wasn't talking about the origin point for the dragon dreams--there's no telling how far back that goes. I'm saying that Aegon V didn't marry a Targaryen, so it would have been through him that the Targaryen gifts passed on to the next generation, not through a female Targaryen. Your statement was that the father only matters in terms of physical inheritance, not magical, and in the case of the Targaryens we know that's objectively untrue.

[Voice]

VotFM already beat me to the punch here, but I wasn't talking about the origin point for the dragon dreams--there's no telling how far back that goes. I'm saying that Aegon V didn't marry a Targaryen, so it would have been through him that the Targaryen gifts passed on to the next generation, not through a female Targaryen. Your statement was that the father only matters in terms of physical inheritance, not magical, and in the case of the Targaryens we know that's objectively untrue.

:ninja:

[wolfmaid7]

RL. I was in Florida or a year and while in many ways its the back of beyond, I had little time to read and post.

As usual there is notion here i don;t heartily agree with.

.

I touched on this in my post and can't wait tiol you w9rk it out.

Magically yes, but either way you slice it it's a huge whack for Jon.

You have been missed.....To me it ultimately comes down to choice.I mentioned this on the previous thread.I talk about characters in this story being used as tools because that also does come into play.Blood does matter,but it might not matter to characters like Jon or Bran etc.Dany may spout that stuff without realizing what it means to some people.

But for other characters like Mel or BR etc Blood is very important ,and as long as its important to them its important to the story because of how they mean to utilize it.Even if Jon and the likes of him are oblivious to,don't care in the end about such things.

[wolfmaid7]

VotFM already beat me to the punch here, but I wasn't talking about the origin point for the dragon dreams--there's no telling how far back that goes. I'm saying that Aegon V didn't marry a Targaryen, so it would have been through him that the Targaryen gifts passed on to the next generation, not through a female Targaryen. Your statement was that the father only matters in terms of physical inheritance, not magical, and in the case of the Targaryens we know that's objectively untrue.

You miss my point which i stated on the last thread and this one so i'll repeat myself. The Targ line was usurped/hijacked/corrupted/re-encoded the moment Aegon V married Bertha Blackwood a FM.So the gifts that the Targs do and did have currently are because of that....

This is the reason why Dany did not need sorcery or mages to hatch her eggs.This is why she doesn't need whips,horns etc to control Drogon.

So exactly what gifts were he suppose to pass on?

Other than Daenys the Dreamer when did we start to notice Targs in general with prophetic dreams?It would be interesting to know who Aenar's wife was though.

[Old Ida]

Oh I can´t wait for this tale to finish... so many possibility But wait I must.

The magic gift is not used in my langues but we talk more of the sight (hope I translate it right) and it is clearly in familys and more on the matriarchal site but also in some men.

My favorite crackpot is... if.. no one think about the timeline, that Jon is a year older then Robb, Ned married Ashara and had they had the son but she died and he had to marry Cat and took his son home with him. I know this is just my wish :bang:

But to be a son of Winterfell must be magical in it self. They had the direwolfs, all the Brandon likely The Last Hero and the NK. But I sure hope Jon does not end up as NK to be like Leto in Dune, but I can see him becoming the real King of the North of the Wall where all the free people of all races can live in harmony, be they Giants, Others, Children of the Forest or normal free men.

I will be nice and not write more in this tread :eek:

btw: had GRRM wrote the trilogy we can see he had in mind it would also have been a great epic!

[Matthew.]

You miss my point which i stated on the last thread and this one so i'll repeat myself. The Targ line was usurped/hijacked/corrupted/re-encoded the moment Aegon V married Bertha Blackwood a FM.So the gifts that the Targs do and did have currently are because of that....

This is the reason why Dany did not need sorcery or mages to hatch her eggs.This is why she doesn't need whips,horns etc to control Drogon.

So exactly what gifts were he suppose to pass on?

Other than Daenys the Dreamer when did we start to notice Targs in general with prophetic dreams?It would be interesting to know who Aenar's wife was though.

Targs were having prophetic dragon dreams before Aegon V-- Maester Aemon had some, Daemon Blackfyre had some, Aerys I Targaryen had some, and I think there was at least one other Targaryen prince that has them in the D&E novels. In addition, one of Maegor the Cruel's wives gave birth to a twisted and deformed child that sounds similar to Rhaego.

The dragon dreams are at least one magical facet that we can say with certainty had already existed in the Targaryen line, and could have only arrived at the current generation through a male, Aegon V Targaryen. There is simply no evidence for this idea that the matriarchal line is the only one that can pass on magic.

[wolfmaid7]

Targs were having prophetic dragon dreams before Aegon V-- Maester Aemon had some, Daemon Blackfyre had some, Aerys I Targaryen had some, and I think there was at least one other Targaryen prince that has them in the D&E novels. In addition, one of Maegor the Cruel's wives gave birth to a twisted and deformed child that sounds similar to Rhaego.

The dragon dreams are at least one magical facet that we can say with certainty had already existed in the Targaryen line, and could have only arrived at the current generation through a male, Aegon V Targaryen. There is simply no evidence for this idea that the matriarchal line is the only one that can pass on magic.

Matthew i'm seeing some unknown females of FM houses in points where there is clear mixing of bloodlines.It should be noted Maegor's wife who gave birth to the twisted Dragon like baby was Jeyne Westerling who came from a FM house.This is my point FM women have been introduced to the Targ bloodline for a long time.Starting i think with House Arryn and Hightower.

[Matthew.]

Matthew i'm seeing some unknown females of FM houses in points where there is clear mixing of bloodlines.It should be noted Maegor's wife who gave birth to the twisted Dragon like baby was Jeyne Westerling who came from a FM house.This is my point FM women have been introduced to the Targ bloodline for a long time.Starting i think with House Arryn and Hightower.

Why should those FM bloodlines be given greater responsibility for Targ magic, when Valyria itself was a highly magical culture? Daenys the Dreamer was having prophetic dreams ~400 years ago, before Targaryens started intermarrying with Westeros, and to this day her latest descendant still has prophetic dragon dreams, and reawakened dragons with fire and blood.

I simply see no strong evidence, or indeed any plot reason to place such a convoluted rule on the world's magic--that, somehow, a male Targaryen could not pass on ancestral magic, and that instead everything that has subsequently happened is because of an occasional influx of FM blood.

When Dany has a dream of kings with burning swords, it's a line of kings with silver, platinum, gold hair, with eyes of ruby and onyx and violet--I'm going to hazard a guess that this isn't a vision of ancient Blackwoods and Westerlings.

It is by far the more reasonable interpretation that what Dany has done is inherent to her Valyrian ancestry, as opposed to her Blackwood great grandmother, a character that was never even mentioned in the text prior to the World Book.

Edit: Which is not to say that the mixing of magic bloodlines isn't relevant; indeed, I think the fact that Dany's son was half Dothraki, with all of the burning stallion imagery, is potentially a significant part of why Dany succeeded where other Targs failed. I'm arguing against the idea that magic only passes on through mothers.

[Voice]

Yeah. Sorry wolfmaid, this is starting to sound kinda crackpot. Are you saying Daenerys is able to hatch dragon eggs because of her Blackwood ancestry, rather than the Targaryen ancestry inherited from Aegon V and Valyria?

It simply doesn't add up.

Then, on the other side of all this, we have Bran and Arya. Who are exhibiting very Stark-specific powers (erm... the house with a direwolf sigil) which they are connected to via their paternal ancestry, not their mother's.

[Prince of Ghost]

Again I am reminded of Branvras’ analysis in his section labeled "The Black Bat" in which he discusses matriarchal lines, magic, and Sansa Stark. It is a long read but one that could provide great insight into the current discussion of magic through the maternal line. In his analysis Robb, Bran, Sansa,and Arya get their magical abilities through Catelyn Stark in which she got it from her mother,

Minisa Whent from Harrenhal.

Here is his section labeled The Black Bat

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Bat.html

[Matthew.]

My beef, besides the lack of strong evidence, is that Martin doesn't generally go all table top RPG with his magic, and start imposing rules on it. In that regard, I don't think it enhances the plot to insist on tracing every magical gift to a particular matriarchal line, especially when House Stark and House Targaryen are so heavily associated with wolf companions and dragon riding, respectively.

Additionally, Daenerys isn't the first Targaryen to bond with a dragon without the use of the horn; indeed, even with the WB, the Princess and the Queen, Euron's horn remains the only confirmed dragon horn to appear in the text. Which begs the question--do true dragonlords actually need horns to bind their dragons, or should we be extremely suspicious of what's really going on with Dragonbinder?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Hello everyone!

It's great to see new faces and old here.

On a continuation of last thread's theme (confess to only reading the last couple of pages, so forgive any errors or omissions.

Very glad to see that we are no longer taking R+L as obvious. This was (as some knew was a bone of contention for me since it was obvious to me on my first, and subsequent reads.)

I would like to say that in ASoIAF blood does tell but not in the we are accustomed.

Theon is brought up as a Stark and until his rescue of fArya this counted for little.

Eddard and Robert were both raised as Arryns. He (jon) is hardly the warrior or the honourable poster child.

Littlefinger was brought up with the Tullys. None of which were hellbent on making their house THE house.

On the inverse side of the coin we have Dany raised by Viserys and sycophants yet she, like Jon, finds her own way but tries to adapt her house words

Tyrion was trained and brought up with the Lannister ideals.

Yes their words and upbringing do to one extent or another reflex their house but when compared to others raised along with them, they are not what you would expect;.

:cheers: Identity in general is something we discussed a while back and has spilled over into the current threads too. Nice points you make about the struggle with this concept of identity.

[Yield.]

r

Welcome back, you've been missed.

I think much depends on how we define obvious. Is R+L=J too obvious to be true or does it not matter because the real red herring is Azor Ahai?

Thanks for the welcome home (and that is how it feels.)

R+L-J is too obvious, but that's not to say it isn't true. I wish it wasn't and that Martin had a really nice twist for that, but alas some conventions must be followed. I found the hints in Game as heavy handed as they are telegraphing on the show.

The Azor Ahai thing and Jon being the one is again, blatant. I'm thinking here how all Mel sees in her fire is Snow since that, in all honesty, probably means it's true because she dismisses it out of hand.

However if we are talking about the Last Hero, the Dragon that was Promised and Azor Ahai all being one, then no. Jon is either all of them of none of them in that situation, which if he \was is would not only be a much used trope, it'd be boring too. Now if there was a case made to prove Jon was the Last Hero, then I'm your lad.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Oh I can´t wait for this tale to finish... so many possibility But wait I must.

The magic gift is not used in my langues but we talk more of the sight (hope I translate it right) and it is clearly in familys and more on the matriarchal site but also in some men.

My favorite crackpot is... if.. no one think about the timeline, that Jon is a year older then Robb, Ned married Ashara and had they had the son but she died and he had to marry Cat and took his son home with him. I know this is just my wish :bang:

But to be a son of Winterfell must be magical in it self. They had the direwolfs, all the Brandon likely The Last Hero and the NK. But I sure hope Jon does not end up as NK to be like Leto in Dune, but I can see him becoming the real King of the North of the Wall where all the free people of all races can live in harmony, be they Giants, Others, Children of the Forest or normal free men.

I will be nice and not write more in this tread :eek:

btw: had GRRM wrote the trilogy we can see he had in mind it would also have been a great epic!

It is weird all the Brandon throughout the history of Starks. The Builder who is said to built Winterfell and maybe the Wall. B. The Breaker associated with the Night's King. The Night's King whom Old Nan says his name may have been Brandon too. B. Ice Eyes with ice eyes who fell upon his enemies during a harsh Winter. The loveable Bran and all the others in between.

Something I'd like to know, was the Last Hero named Brandon also? A hero Stark before the Starks were cool? I find the possibility intriguing and funny that the Last Hero could have the name and blood of the Stark Family.

I was trying to say something about identity but I got distracted and lost my point(s). :) Oh well.

[Yield.]

The idea of magic gifts coming only from the matriarchal line is, at least as far as dragon blood goes, an inaccurate theory. All presently known Targs (Bloodraven excluded) claim their descent from Aegon V, who didn't marry one of his sisters, so Dany's dragon dreams and "dragon blood" can ultimately be traced to the patriarchal line.

True. Her mother however is a Rhaenys, as was Rhaegar's, you know the other one who was thought to be the prophesied one. If you're talking about magical powers being handed down the paternal line only (forgive me I'm a bit out of the lop here), I would remind you that BR displays more Old Blood talent than Fire and Blood. He is the descendent of the First Men on his maternal line so an argument could be made that his seeing with A Thousand Eyes and One comes from her, since not one of the Targs have shown that ability.

[Yield.]

Oh FFS!

If this keeps up I'm gonna start leaving random quotes here...

[Yield.]

Agreed. I'd even say "huge whack" is an understatement. If you found out tomorrow your father was not your father, but your mother's brother... and that your real father was John F Kennedy, and that your real mother died giving birth to you in Cuba, I'd say that's more than a wack. That's a Thwump!

Edit: And yes, I'm picturing Lyanna as a sexy, brunette Marilyn Monroe right now...

There you go again Ser Grandmother. Leave it to you to #truth.

I've always pictured her as a this but lately I've been envisioning her as Lagertha.

[Matthew.]

True. Her mother however is a Rhaenys, as was Rhaegar's, you know the other one who was thought to be the prophesied one. If you're talking about magical powers being handed down the paternal line only (forgive me I'm a bit out of the lop here), I would remind you that BR displays more Old Blood talent than Fire and Blood. He is the descendent of the First Men on his maternal line so an argument could be made that his seeing with A Thousand Eyes and One comes from her, since not one of the Targs have shown that ability.

No, I'm arguing that either parent can pass on magical gifts. I use the Aegon V example because, if it was all about the mother, then any magic gifts there are to inherit from Old Valyria should have been lost with Aegon V, since he didn't have a sister wife. In essence, if the roles were reversed, and if BR had a Blackwood father and a Targaryen mother, I see no reason why his gifts couldn't have been the same as they are now.

I think it's a mechanic that would complicate the magic without actually improving the world or the story.

As an example of how this can make a mess of things, if we say that it has to be the mother that passes on magic, then can we truly say there is such a thing as a magical gift inherent to, say, the Blackwoods, just because BR has the gift? Sure, he gets the gift from his Blackwood mother, but who did she get it from? Let's say speculatively, that her mother is a Frey--does that mean that BR's gift is actually a Frey gift, because his grandmother on his mother's side was a Frey? And what about her mother, and then her mother...and so forth.

Or, to bring it to the Starks, if we say that Catelyn's children have actually inherited Tully magic, and only Jon has Stark magic through Lyanna, is that accurate? Lyanna is a Stark, her mother Lyarra is a Stark, but Lyarra's mother is a Flint, so does that mean that Jon Stark's family gift is actually a Flint gift? :bang:

Basically, what I'm getting at is that this is probably one area of the story that shouldn't be overthought; magic is supposed to be mysterious. Bran et al don't have magic because their grandmother was a Whent, they have magic because, for plot purposes, it's appropriate that the Starks bond with direwolves, just as it's symbolically appropriate that Dany reawaken the magic of fire and blood, and bring back dragons--no need to have some extra layer where her bond with Drogon is actually because her great grandmother was Betha Blackwood.

[Yield.]

You have been missed.....To me it ultimately comes down to choice.I mentioned this on the previous thread.I talk about characters in this story being used as tools because that also does come into play.Blood does matter,but it might not matter to characters like Jon or Bran etc.Dany may spout that stuff without realizing what it means to some people.

But for other characters like Mel or BR etc Blood is very important ,and as long as its important to them its important to the story because of how they mean to utilize it.Even if Jon and the likes of him are oblivious to,don't care in the end about such things.

Woops!

I just noticed a typo that had an unintended reversal of what I meant...

What the line under your previous quote was supposed to read as:-

'As usual there is nothing here I don't heartily agree with'

NOT 'there is a notion here' etc

And like I said blood is important, but what a character does is more so.