Heresy 167

[Black Crow]

:agree: Appalled, though not surprised. I've received similar responses to questioning standard doctrines of "the TOJ."

Just seemed more virulent than usual, especially when it wasn't always coming from the usual suspects.

[Black Crow]

There is, and that's not really what I was trying to get at. My core complaint is with the very specific statement on the first page that fathers can only pass on physical inheritance, but that magic comes from the mother--I'm saying that no such rule exists for the Targs, and is essentially unverifiable (and unnecessary) for everyone else.

I agree. I know we've looked at the importance of mothers before but on balance these days I'm inclined to look at it as an unnecessary complication. There would appear to be something about First Men, presumably deriving from the Pact linking them to the old powers and if it is more pronounced in the Starks that's because they have not intermarried with later arrivals to the extent other families have and that their bloodline is consequently "purer". Beyond that I don't think its necessary to refine things further by placing a significance on the female side.

[Voice]

That moved a bit last night... so once again with my usual breath-taking arrogance, a summary to cover all of it.

I think a lot of this bloodline stuff is being over-emphasised. Danaerys hatched those dragon eggs in what GRRM flatly stated was a one-time magical event, period. It had nothing to do with stray ancestors from outside the Targaryen bloodline. It was sufficient that she is a Targaryen and that the story required her to have dragons. Likewise Bran is a greenseer not because his mother was a Tully but because he is a Stark and if you really want to be picky was groomed by Bloodraven, but that's in the story not a hidden backstory.

Jon is a Stark and that's why R+L=J is a red herring. Yes, his father might have been Rhaegar Targaryen but he takes after his Stark mother.

I myself have two sons; the elder is a clone of myself in every way, good and bad. There's the occasional [good] flash of his mother but taken as a person he is my son. My younger son on the other hand is a mirror of his mother.

Point being that each is unmistakably one or the other, rather than black and white mixed to make grey. In the same way, whether his father was Rhaegar or anybody else, Jon is fundamentally a Stark and aint about to be transformed into something he patently isn't.

Finding that his father was Rhaegar Targaryen, who was ultimatey responsible for plunging Westeros into this murderous cycle of wars and perhaps thereby triggering what's to come will indeed be an ironic and savage twist in the story but its not going to make him want to hug a dragon.

I agree with everything here. My only addition would be that despite a son not favoring his father, that does not mean he has not inherited any traits from his father at all. Nor does it mean that others will not treat and affect him differently.

Like I said up-thread, if you found out tomorrow the father who raised you was not your father, but your dead mother's brother, and that your actual father was a long dead celebrity, a long dead hero, or a living man who has not been seen for a long time, it would deeply affect you. Knowledge of both parents would affect you. Their relationship with each other would affect you, or lack of one for that matter.

I'm not suggesting Jon will suddenly becoming a Targ, or a Dayne, or a Reed. I'm simply suggesting the knowledge of his father's identity will affect him, and that his paternal heritage has likely already affected the way old powers interact with him.

I think it is unrealistic to suggest Jon might be the son of Arthur Dayne, but that knowledge of this would have far less an effect on him than would knowing his mother was Lyanna. Both matter. And both can have a profound effect on his purpose.

Mayhaps all of Rhaegar's children were going to receive Bloodraven-colored direwolves?

Mayhaps all Dayne SotM's have dreams about being armored in black ice with swords that burn?

Mayhaps all Reeds have a habit of flexing their sword hands?

Mayhaps all of Benjen's bastards have been known to have a fondness for redheads?

Until we know, we are remiss to dismiss the influences of his father.

Of course the real problem with R+L=J is not the question in itself but rather the supplementary assumption that if true then he is not only the rightful heir to the Iron but the Prince that was Promised and Azor Ahai, bearing of the fiery sword who will do the business against the Others.

This I think is the real red herring; that there is no magical hero. Yes there will be heroes and perhaps one last one pre-eminent among them, but to revert to the synopsis it is the survival of humanity which is at stake - and that will require a very human hero to win that fight.

I'm on the fence re AA, but I definitely think there will be a hero. Magical, or not, I cannot say. But I think it is highly likely the hero will both benefit and be challenged by magic.

Voice of the First Men said

I have no problem with the World Book and that piece you quoted here is a good founding father myths. Like Garth Greenhand I'm sure there are truths about him and in his story there are pieces of other people's, including multiple Bran's and Brandons, tales and doings. (maybe even a Brynden or a Branda or a clan chief that was very stark) The one who found the Singers during the Long Night and the builder of the Wall and a person or people who first learned to speak with the cotf all gathered into one ballad.

Thing is, it isn't just a founding father myth in the World Book. Rather, it's describing the very specific activities usually attributed to the last hero, to Brandon the Builder. I think that is an interesting, and fitting, nuance to the story.

While many deeds are attributed to such ancient avatars, I think it highly likely Brandon the Builder and the last hero are one and the same actual person.

Its certainly a very common trend in heroic history to find different deeds ascribed to just one individual and indeed GRRM himself comments on this in regards to Bran the Builder:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

... he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

As to the suggestion that the Last Hero and Bran the Builder are one and the same that would appear to be explicitly ruled out not just by the different circumstances [pursued through the woods - building the Wall], but by our Bran's rejection of the offer to be told the story of Bran the Builder in favour of the story of the Last Hero. To his mind they are very clearly two different individuals and given that Bran the Builder is his own legendary ancestor it is inconceivable that he should not make the connection if it existed.

That's not to say that the Last Hero wasn't one of the many other Brandons

Sure. And if fever dreams should not be taken completely literally, we certainly cannot take tales (which may have come from dreams) literally that are thousands of years old, and may have grown in the telling during that time.

But someone certainly sought out the cotf during the Long Night. It is interesting that in the books, this man is called "the last hero," and that in the World Book this man is called "Brandon the Builder".

In my mind, it makes sense if the last hero founded House Stark, as BtB is said to have done. It also makes sense, to me, that the last hero would be the same individual who initiated the building of the Wall.

Hey Voice, I stumbled across this connection yesterday while looking into something else entirely

Jon ACoK

World Book

The scroll is the interesting thing. Even if you put aside whether or not BtB built the Hightower, we know that since the Wall was not yet raised and the Maester's Library at Castle Black did not exist, the scroll was housed elsewhere.

A tenuous but interesting notion that BtB got the scroll from the Hightowers.

Interesting indeed. Many thanks WP!

I have to confess to being appalled at the hysteria which greeted your OP - no other word is adequate to describe it.

Yes. We get spoiled with the level of decorum here. I know I have. I joined Heresy ready to duel, or at least, argue like a five year old the way I was used to seeing in certain other places. Now it takes me a minute to reacclimate to the hostility, and it is a troubling process.

I have a notification saying Ygrain quoted a comment I made, so I should probably check that after my next cup of coffee... fun. LOL

[Voice]

Just seemed more virulent than usual, especially when it wasn't always coming from the usual suspects.

Compared to a year ago, maybe. The faith has militarized since then.

[wolfmaid7]

Don't get me wrong i'm not dissing the fathers and their ability or inability to pass on certain traits and i think is what some think i'm saying.In the vein of everything that has happened to these two families especially i'm saying their females or females have played a significant role mystically for them.Daenys the dreamer major major for house Targ and we know male and females have had the gift of prophetic dreams but from the series point of view it started with "her" This is the trait that i believe better enabled them to be sensitive to communicating with Dragons.The significance of dreaming and communication can't be ignored.

But i'll go back to Maester Aemon's "The Sphinx is the riddle not the riddler." and this is what i believe the merging of the bloodlines was better able to accomplish for the Targs.

Why i brought this up was to say if Rhaegar is Jon's father then he and his father have a First Man connection through a "matriarchial" bloodline so asking or or postulating what magic he might have inherited from Rhaegar per se makes no sense ,and it certainly doesn't matter its the how its manifested.It doesn't matter who Jon's father is the chances are both parents will have magic in their viens because wives were taken into other lines.

Which goes back to my point about magic being neutral, a blank slate that sensitive creatures,individuals manifest differently.Jon at this point is manifesting something cold its just how its going for him and had he taken Melissandre's offer it may not have been.

[Black Crow]

Thing is, it isn't just a founding father myth in the World Book. Rather, it's describing the very specific activities usually attributed to the last hero, to Brandon the Builder. I think that is an interesting, and fitting, nuance to the story.

While many deeds are attributed to such ancient avatars, I think it highly likely Brandon the Builder and the last hero are one and the same actual person.

... And if fever dreams should not be taken completely literally, we certainly cannot take tales (which may have come from dreams) literally that are thousands of years old, and may have grown in the telling during that time.

But someone certainly sought out the cotf during the Long Night. It is interesting that in the books, this man is called "the last hero," and that in the World Book this man is called "Brandon the Builder".

In my mind, it makes sense if the last hero founded House Stark, as BtB is said to have done. It also makes sense, to me, that the last hero would be the same individual who initiated the building of the Wall.

I can understand your argument but remain unmoved. If the Last Hero and Bran the Builder - the most famous Stark ancestor - were one and the same, the Starks would know about it rather than treating their stories as different and unconnected.

[Matthew.]

But i'll go back to Maester Aemon's "The Sphinx is the riddle not the riddler." and this is what i believe the merging of the bloodlines was better able to accomplish for the Targs.

This is an idea that I agree with; I can't fully flesh out the idea, but I almost lean toward the notion that all of the Targ inbreeding, rather than strengthening their magic, was producing weaker (physically, mentally, and magically) heirs, something reflected by how feeble and weak the last Targ dragons were, and that an influx of fresh blood was exactly what they needed.

There's also that seemingly random comment that the Green Grace makes about the Dragon and the Harpy mating to "fulfill the prophecies," and the fact that Dany and Drogo's son seems to have been important for bringing back the dragons. I'm going to guess there's something in the tPtwP prophecy that we haven't been privy to about the importance of "The Sphinx" for reawakening dragons, and that the Targs hadn't been able to suss out that the Sphinx would be a product of two different lines of kings/conquerors/whatever--in the case of Rhaego, the stallion and the dragon.

[Voice]

I can understand your argument but remain unmoved. If the Last Hero and Bran the Builder - the most famous Stark ancestor - were one and the same, the Starks would know about it rather than treating their stories as different and unconnected.

I can respect that, but the tales themselves aren't even mutually exclusive. My point is mainly that there is a surprising amount of overlap between them.

Also, I'm taking a break so if you want to chime in over in WP's thread for a bit that'd be great :D

[wolfmaid7]

I have a notification saying Ygrain quoted a comment I made, so I should probably check that after my next cup of coffee... fun. LOL

You are a brave soul.....Be safe else us Heretics will have to do a candle light vigil for it.

This is an idea that I agree with; I can't fully flesh out the idea, but I almost lean toward the notion that all of the Targ inbreeding, rather than strengthening their magic, was producing weaker (physically, mentally, and magically) heirs, something reflected by how feeble and weak the last Targ dragons were, and that an influx of fresh blood was exactly what they needed.

There's also that seemingly random comment that the Green Grace makes about the Dragon and the Harpy mating to "fulfill the prophecies," and the fact that Dany and Drogo's son seems to have been important for bringing back the dragons. I'm going to guess there's something in the tPtwP prophecy that we haven't been privy to about the importance of "The Sphinx" for reawakening dragons, and that the Targs hadn't been able to suss out that the Sphinx would be a product of two different lines of kings/conquerors/whatever--in the case of Rhaego, the stallion and the dragon.

The characters atlease some of them,had a eugenics program going on it seems.

[Voice]

You are a brave soul.....Be safe else us Heretics will have to do a candle light vigil for it.

LOL no need. The glass candles are burning and the truth is clear ;)

[Black Crow]

I can respect that, but the tales themselves aren't even mutually exclusive. My point is mainly that there is a surprising amount of overlap between them.

Also, I'm taking a break so if you want to chime in over in WP's thread for a bit that'd be great :D

They have but one thing in common. In the story of the Last Hero we are told that the armies of men were shattered and their kingdoms fallen, so 13 heroes set out to seek the aid of the children [or cry pax] before eventually they popped up to help the last of them as he was being pursued through the woods by his enemies.

Bran the Builder went to seek the aid of the children when he was building the Wall [supposedly]*

There's a connection of course in that the Wall is said to have been built to keep the bogey men out - but presumably after they'd gone homeward tae think again.

However given that there are two different stories which don't quite mesh and which to the Starks are not the same story there's a pretty simple explanation for the supposed similarity.

Once upon a time the heroes set forth and the children help the last survivor. At the very least they extend the protection of guest right and they might too help him sent the Others homeward.

Some time later Bran the Builder who some said built the Wall decides that building it is a bigger job than he thought. Bethinks to himself that the children are handy in the magical department and were friendly enough to help the last hero, and so goes to as them for a quote on the ice-work.

Simple as that.

*with regards to the attribution of works to legendary figures per that SSM quoted above its worth noting that Bran, in deciding to turn down the offer of the story of Bob the Builder reflects that his famous ancestor built Winterfell "and some said the Wall", clearly indicating that not only was he not connecting the two but was also sceptical that said honoured ancestor was responsible for the Wall at all.

[Voice]

They have but one thing in common. In the story of the Last Hero we are told that the armies of men were shattered and their kingdoms fallen, so 13 heroes set out to seek the aid of the children [or cry pax] before eventually they popped up to help the last of them as he was being pursued through the woods by his enemies.

Bran the Builder went to seek the aid of the children when he was building the Wall [supposedly]*

As to the last, Jon seems quite certain.

Jon IV ASOS

The Wall was often said to stand seven hundred feet high, but Jarl had found a place where it was both higher and lower. Before them, the ice rose sheer from out of the trees like some immense cliff, crowned by wind-carved battlements that loomed at least eight hundred feet high, perhaps nine hundred in spots. But that was deceptive, Jon realized as they drew closer. Brandon the Builder had laid his huge foundation blocks along the heights wherever feasible, and hereabouts the hills rose wild and rugged.

As does Maester Aemon.

Samwell V ASOS

The suggestion outraged some of the others. "Do you want the king to wipe our arses for us too?" said Cotter Pyke angrily. "The choice of a Lord Commander belongs to the Sworn Brothers, and to them alone," insisted Ser Denys Mallister. "If they choose wisely they won't be choosing me," moaned Dolorous Edd. Maester Aemon, calm as always, said, "Your Grace, the Night's Watch has been choosing its own leader since Brandon the Builder raised the Wall. Through Jeor Mormont we have had nine hundred and ninety-seven Lords Commander in unbroken succession, each chosen by the men he would lead, a tradition many thousands of years old."

Moving on to the last hero, how can we forget the 'ice spider' passage?

Bran IV AGOT

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

[...]

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

What could the children offer the last hero, if not the wisdom required to build the Wall? The Black Gate certainly would suggest the tales are true, and that the cotf aided in some fashion. And then we have the World Book describing Bran the Builder doing one thing in particular usually said of the last hero:

TWOIAF - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

Seeking the aid of the cotf isn't exactly rare. It happens a lot in the World Book. But seeking their aid during the long night is said of but one man, as is seeking their aid against the Others. In the books, that is singularly the actions of the last hero. The WB seems to use BtB in his stead, in this instance at least.

That is not to suggest your argument isn't valid. It totally is. And I totally agree that it is highly unlikely BtB constructed all the works associated with him.

TWOIAF - The North: Winterfell

The greatest castle of the North is Winterfell, the seat of the Starks since the Dawn Age. Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter. As Brandon the Builder is connected with an improbable number of great works (Storm's End and the Wall, to name but two prominent examples) over a span of numerous lifetimes, the tales have likely turned some ancient king, or a number of different kings of House Stark (for there have been many Brandons in the long reign of that family) into something more legendary.

Clearly, there are multiple Brandons and multiple works associated with Brandon the Builder across multiple lifetimes. But there are two works that do not require an "inhuman" lifespan: Winterfell and the Wall.

1. Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell

2. after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night

to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter. As

It makes complete sense for BtB to build Winterfell after he built the Wall. The long night only lasted a generation. It isn't impossible that Brandon the Builder survived the long night, and was still young and able enough to found a House for his descendants. I think it is even more interesting that early Starks adopted the monicker "Kings of Winter," but I don't want to digress...

I know we'll have to agree to disagree, again Ser, but wanted to outline my thinking a bit more clearly in case anyone's interested. :cheers:

[Voice]

Once upon a time the heroes set forth and the children help the last survivor. At the very least they extend the protection of guest right and they might too help him sent the Others homeward.

Some time later Bran the Builder who some said built the Wall decides that building it is a bigger job than he thought. Bethinks to himself that the children are handy in the magical department and were friendly enough to help the last hero, and so goes to as them for a quote on the ice-work.

Simple as that.

No need to point out this is fan fiction right? You already know.

And if BtB needed a quote on the ice-work, he certainly asked the wrong lot, as the cotf work Earth, not Ice. :cool4:

[Black Crow]

So what did he ask them to quote on? Plumbing?

Yes we can cite all manner of passages about Bob the Builder raising the Wall, but I just find it interesting that Bran knows him as the builder of Winterfell and is sceptical about the Wall.

Be that as it may what is just as interesting, as we've argued over before, is that the story of the last hero involves a long search to find the children and while there isn't the same implication of time and suffering in the Bob the Builder story both supposedly take place after the Pact since when we're told the two races lived together in peace and amity, with the children helpfully providing an annual gift of dragonglass.

[Black Crow]

Total digression; in the other story about the Raven King, his harbinger Vinculus is absolutely superbly played by Paul Kaye but as yet alas no there's no sign of Heresy 137.

[Black Crow]

No need to point out this is fan fiction right? You already know.

Only as written by GGRM :rofl:

[WhitewolfStark]

You miss my point which i stated on the last thread and this one so i'll repeat myself. The Targ line was usurped/hijacked/corrupted/re-encoded the moment Aegon V married Bertha Blackwood a FM.So the gifts that the Targs do and did have currently are because of that....

This is the reason why Dany did not need sorcery or mages to hatch her eggs.This is why she doesn't need whips,horns etc to control Drogon.

So exactly what gifts were he suppose to pass on?

Other than Daenys the Dreamer when did we start to notice Targs in general with prophetic dreams?It would be interesting to know who Aenar's wife was though.

Actually before that, thrice in a row:

Daeron the Good married Mariah Martell (who did not have Targaryen blood in her)

Maekar I married Dyanna Dayne (who we can speculate might have had Valyrian heritage given features common to House Dayne: pale blond hair & violet eyes; but that's speculation)

Aegon V married Betha Blackwood

So... the Targaryen inheritance had to survive three generations of male only inheritance to get to Dany.

[Regular John Umber]

The idea of magic gifts coming only from the matriarchal line is, at least as far as dragon blood goes, an inaccurate theory. All presently known Targs (Bloodraven excluded) claim their descent from Aegon V, who didn't marry one of his sisters, so Dany's dragon dreams and "dragon blood" can ultimately be traced to the patriarchal line.

Is that true though? No one after Aegon V had a dragon. It seems Dany re-initiated the magic in that tent with Mirri Maz Dur.

[TheSmallOther]

Actually before that, thrice in a row:

Daeron the Good married Mariah Martell (who did not have Targaryen blood in her)

Maekar I married Dyanna Dayne (who we can speculate might have had Valyrian heritage given features common to House Dayne: pale blond hair & violet eyes; but that's speculation)

Aegon V married Betha Blackwood

So... the Targaryen inheritance had to survive three generations of male only inheritance to get to Dany.

I'm still reading threads regarding old emperors, and Great Empire of the Dawn. Some claim that Daynes are descendants of that Empire who managed to move from Essos to Westeros a long time ago, before Valyria. I.e., they are far far relatives to Valyrians, not siblings.

[TheSmallOther]

yet another double post