A+J=T v.4 (temporary)

[GeorgeIAF]

Opened the thread to continue the discussion from here : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125646-ajt-v-3/

For me, even the poster for this season is a clue, even though it's a bit of a stretch :

http://newsweep.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/43179__got_leak-bg-408x264.jpg

I bet this scene will happen at some point in the next episodes, i'm curious how will it unfold, i bet there will be more clues and foreshadowing for Tyrion being a Targ.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To continue from the previous thread

Jo Maltese

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

We should separate what Moqorro sees in the flames from what he is meant to see :

- He sees six dragons, i.e beasts, that appear to him with the characteristics he describes (old, young etc.) and he sees Tyrion, i.e. the (small) man, in the middle of them, strangely snarling and casting a big shadow (suggesting dragon traits).

- What he is meant to see is unclear for him (as it is for us), but it would make sense if he saw 7 dragons. Indeed, Tyrion is the only character he has met for real (unlike Dany, Jon, Aegon, Aemon etc.) therefore there is a chance that this is why he does not see a 7th beast but the real dragon (Tyrion) without realising it. This is very similar to Mel seeing Jon in her flames and not understanding why, but only after she has met him.

Moqorro seems to have seen his vision before meeting Tyrion, so why would Tyrion not be seen as a dragon as well? That Tyrion does not appear as a dragon, whilst he does see two or six (depending on how to interpret the counting) dragons amongst Tyrion, should be a hint, right?

@Wouter

Tyrion's level of infatuation with dragons is unique for the series. We aren't shown it in Arya, Bran, Tommen,...

We do hear of plenty of maesters who had been fascinated by dragons.. Why should it matter that Bran and Arya and Tommen and others aren't as fascinated? It is not an unique trade to Targaryens.. Look at Septon Barth.. Or was he a secret Targaryen as well?

@Marcel

If Joanna Lannister had a prior relationship with Aerys, and there is evidence for this to be credible, it is reasonable to assume that after Rhaella dismissed her from the court, Tywin has married her to preserve her honor. This is all the more likely if Tywin really loved her, which seems a certain fact. Now, there is an interval of three years between the marriage of Tywin and Joanna and the birth of Cercei and Jaime. If Tywin could not have children, maybe Joanna had gotten pregnant from Aerys to give Tywin the heirs he wished so much. Both Cercei and Jaime inherited the physical traits of the Lannister, but the personality traits of Aerys. I do not know if Tywin was or was not aware that Joanna had betrayed him, it is possible that he knew, but, in any case, in appearance Cercei and Jaime were legitimate Lannisters and had inherited the family blood from their mother. Any trace of Aerys's character which could manifest in both could be supressed through a rigorous education. In the case of Tyrion, however, none of this applies. Tyrion would have the physical traits of the Targaryen and Tywin never recognized in his youngest son Joanna's personality or political sagacity. Each character flaw that Tyrion had presented would be, in Tywin's eyes, a reminder of Aerys Targaryen. There was no reason for Tyrion, because Tywin already had Jaime as a heir. But, more importantly, Tyrion represents the certainty of Joanna's betrayal and proof that her feelings for him were not as strong as his feelings for her. This could explain part of Tywin's bitterness and why he never developed any other relationship with a woman after Joanna's death.

Joanna was send away from court after marrying Tywin.

@Wouter again

There is a very logical distinction: we (proponents of the theory) believe that Tywin meant it when he said this to Tyrion (twice, it wasn't only at his death) and didn't mean it when he said it to Jaime. Of course, it is just as valid to believe he did not meant it in all cases, but the fact remains that he very much wanted Jaime to be his heir (and the "not my son" moment came when Jaime rejected this, after which Tywin tried to mend fences soon after) and he very much wanted Tyrion to not inherit Casterly Rock. He was fine for Winterfell, far away from Lannister lands...

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. “Father...” he began.

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

Tywin says such things to his sons in anger.. In addition, he tells Tyrion

"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?"

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

In a critical time for House Lannister, Tywin puts Tyrion in an enormous amount of power, and gives as reason `because you are my son´.

And you raise Winterfell... Tywin hated Aerys, in the end, for all Aerys did to him, for all the time the king shamed him.. Why grant one of the eight greatest seats of the entire realm to a man whom he believes is that kings bastard by his own wife?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The thing is, Tyrion having pale blond hair does not point more towards Targaryen than Lannister. Lannisters are blond, Targaryens have silver hair.. and a few even brown... Having a Targaryen ancestor with hair similar to Tyrion's, that could count as a hint... Not having pale blond hair.. That's still blond..

And having similarities with a known Targaryen (Dany) and a person heavily suspected to be a Targaryen (Jon)... These three characters aren't the only ones whose mothers died giving birth, nor are they their parent's thirdborn children (like was stated in the OP in version 3... Daenerys was the sixth born of Aerys and Rhaella's children).

Look at R+L=J.. The blue rose can only be traced back to Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the result of their relationship (Jon).. For Tyrion, I have yet to see such a thing..

[Marcel]

@Marcel

Joanna was send away from court after marrying Tywin.

Sorry, I didn't own "The World of Ice and Fire". I was basing myself in a posting from someone else I read on another topic, and that only made sense if Joanna Lannister had been dismissed from the court before her wedding. Obviously I should not have trusted such a response without checking the original source. I was working with the possibility that Cercei, Jaime and Tyrion are all children of Aerys, but it was presented as fact that the only evidence that Joanna had something with Aerys, after her marriage to Tywin, was during the great Anniversary Tourney in 272. If even after her marriage to Tywin there were hints that she kept a relationship with Aerys, I consider this information very important. So, TWoIF establishes that Joanna was dismissed by Rhaella after her marriage to Tywin?Is that right?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sorry, I didn't own "The World of Ice and Fire". I was basing myself in a posting from someone else I read on another topic, and that only made sense if Joanna Lannister had been dismissed from the court before her wedding. Obviously I should not have trusted such a response without checking the original source. I was working with the possibility that Cercei, Jaime and Tyrion are all children of Aerys, but it was presented as fact that the only evidence that Joanna had something with Aerys, after her marriage to Tywin, was during the great Anniversary Tourney in 272. If even after her marriage to Tywin there were hints that she kept a relationship with Aerys, I consider this information very important. So, TWoIF establishes that Joanna was dismissed by Rhaella after her marriage to Tywin?Is that right?

Yes..

It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter.

In addition, we get:

Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores." (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last).

[Marcel]

Yes..

It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter.

In addition, we get:

Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores." (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last).

Thanks, I'm considering buying the book, but the fact that my main motivation would be to learn more about Robert's Rebellion, and that much of what was written about it by Maester Yandel is doubtful makes me think twice.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thanks, I'm considering buying the book, but the fact that my main motivation would be to learn more about Robert's Rebellion, and that much of what was written about it by Maester Yandel is doubtful makes me think twice.

I found it a beautiful book, and worth my money.. If you are still in doubt, perhaps reading the Westerlands chapter on GRRM's website might help? This is a previous draft of the chapter, the actual chapter in the books contains slightly less info. Still, it gives an idea on the kind of info the chapters on the Kingdoms contains (though I must admit that the Westerlands has a lot of focus on Tywin, whereas the other Kingdoms don't put as much focus on their current lords, but more on the Kingdom as an entirety)..

[hallam]

Tywin is the only character who plays a central role in Roberts Rebellion and the war of five kings. Ned and Stannis are bit players in Robert's Rebellion, Tywin is the man who decides the outcome by switching sides. There are two things that are not yet explained:

1) Why does Tywin switch sides in Robert's rebellion?

2) Why does Tywin have such hatred of house Stark that he melts down Ice?

A+J=T explains the first very well and also why Tyrion is a dwarf, its the after effects of an attempted abortion. Which being a Targarean, Tyrion survives.

We are told Tywin is obsessive about his family line. Yet having lost Jamie to the KingsGuard, Tywin goes out of his way to insult and alienate Tyrion. We have the clue 'you are no son of mine'.

I think there should be a reveal showing Tywin's motivation for going against Aerys and A+J=T does that.

It also explains Tywin's reaction to the Tysha episode and his hypocrisy of arranging marriages for his children while having married for love himself. Whether or not A+J=T is true, I think Tywin believed it to be true and that is the reason for his behavior. But that does not prove it is true because Tywin might have been wrong.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

Targaryens also have pale blond her - the almost white quality. Maekar springs to mind, and the general description of the Targaryen features in the AGoT appendix.

Moqorro has a personal agenda. He may know that Tyrion is a Targaryen bastards, and have his own reasons to not tell him about that. He obviously also chose to not tell Tyrion and Jorah that they would become slaves, or that he was on the ship to go overboard during a storm to join Victarion. And I guess we all agree that it is very unlikely that he is telling the (full) truth to Victarion, either. Why should we then take his words about his dragon visions as the whole truth?

Moqorro's visions are very precise - if he has seen how Tyrion will become a dragonrider and how he learns about his true heritage, he is not likely to cut this future development short by spoiling the fun. If he told Tyrion who he was would he then ever become a dragonrider? Say, if it turns out that Tyrion is going to claim Viserion in a desperate attempt to save somebody - say, Penny - from Viserion.

Tywin is not the one who starts the 'I'm not your son' thing with Jaime. Jaime rejects both Tywin as his father as well as Casterly Rock, and Tywin uses then this fact to stay in control and threw him out of his solar. I think it is a stretch to just assume this 'You are my son/You are not my son' thing has the same thing with Tyrion. Acknowledging Tyrion as his son in AGoT is a way to manipulate him into doing Tywin's bidding, but with the crossbow bolt in his guts it is very likely that he was speaking from his heart, don't you think?

Generally speaking, I find the idea of Tyrion possibly being falsely proclaimed Aerys' bastard or a plot line about him seriously considering and then dismissing this possibility a very weird plot line. For that, the story would have to explore past events for history's sake, and that does not seem to be all that likely. Only if Tyrion turns out to be Aerys' bastard would the whole stuff about Joanna-Aerys make a strong impact on the story line which was actually a worthy plot line to pursue - especially if it will turn out to be connected to dragonriding stuff.

Whether Robert Arryn is Jon's or Petyr's biological son is not really important.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Oh man! Just when I had my mind all made up R_T makes me undecided again.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The thing is, Tyrion having pale blond hair does not point more towards Targaryen than Lannister. Lannisters are blond, Targaryens have silver hair.. and a few even brown... Having a Targaryen ancestor with hair similar to Tyrion's, that could count as a hint... Not having pale blond hair.. That's still blond..

And having similarities with a known Targaryen (Dany) and a person heavily suspected to be a Targaryen (Jon)... These three characters aren't the only ones whose mothers died giving birth, nor are they their parent's thirdborn children (like was stated in the OP in version 3... Daenerys was the sixth born of Aerys and Rhaella's children).

Look at R+L=J.. The blue rose can only be traced back to Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the result of their relationship (Jon).. For Tyrion, I have yet to see such a thing..

We know of no Lannisters that have pale blond hair to adulthood (Tommen's turns blond as he ages). We also know of no Lannisters with black hair -- Tyrion's black streaks potentially coming from Betha Blackwood. Who is the source of the black hair on the Lannister side and why have we seen no other Lannisters with black hair?

What other mothers of principal characters are discussed in the series that died in childbirth? Of course other mothers likely died in childbirth -- but to make this connection among main characters likely is more than just a coincidence on the part of GRRM. And Dany was the third to survive infancy -- so the similarity remains. But are you suggesting that there are not more similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion than would be possible just be coincidence? And if there are significant similarities, why did GRRM make those similarities if not to suggest a connection?

Yes, the RLJ clues are less capable of alternative explanation. But the ATJ clues, taken together, form a strong set of clues (even if no one clue is dispositive) that the implication is fairly strong. There simply is no adequate alternative explanation for why GRRM would have built in so many clues if they are all false leads.

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

Jo Maltese

(...)

IMHO it does not matter when Moqorro did have his vision, what matters is when he lays it down to Tyrion - then he can relate it to him, before meeting Tyrion he could not.

[Wouter]

To continue from the previous thread

@Wouter

We do hear of plenty of maesters who had been fascinated by dragons.. Why should it matter that Bran and Arya and Tommen and others aren't as fascinated? It is not an unique trade to Targaryens.. Look at Septon Barth.. Or was he a secret Targaryen as well?

The assertion was that every child in Westeros dreams of dragons in the same way Tyrion did. But now, you're comparing him to Septon Barth, probably the most learned man in the history of Westeros. I'd guess that still paints Tyrion as being special...

@Wouter again

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. “Father...” he began.

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

Tywin says such things to his sons in anger.. In addition, he tells Tyrion

"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?"

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

In a critical time for House Lannister, Tywin puts Tyrion in an enormous amount of power, and gives as reason `because you are my son´.

And you raise Winterfell... Tywin hated Aerys, in the end, for all Aerys did to him, for all the time the king shamed him.. Why grant one of the eight greatest seats of the entire realm to a man whom he believes is that kings bastard by his own wife?

Tywin gave Tyrion Winterfell (only if he could take and hold it, mind; he would have to get rid of the Boltons, possibly of the Ironmen too, and get the northmen and Sansa to accept him in the process) because Winterfell is very far from Casterly Rock. By giving Tyrion a consolation prize, he avoids further design on Casterly Rock that could threaten Jaime and/or Cersei, the children he actually wants to inherit. Tywin's most fervent wish was that Tyrion would not get his due, being the heir of Casterly Rock (of course, this is understandable if Tyrion isn't even Tywin's child to start with). If the dwarf/the bastard of Aerys wants to defile Winterfell and turn it into a whorehouse, that's no concern of his. The joke would be on the Starks in general and Sansa in particular.

You say "Tywin says such things to his sons in anger". But you missed that he said this to Tyrion as well, when he was not angry beforehand (Tyrion had done a good job, after all):

“You have important letters, yes.” Tyrion rose on unsteady legs, closed his eyes for an instant as a wave of dizziness washed over him, and took a shaky step toward the door. Later, he would reflect that he should have taken a second, and then a third. instead he turned. “What do I want, you ask? I’ll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock.”

His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?”

“The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.”

Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless.

“Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.”

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. “Why?” he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall

ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

This passage says it all: it's Jaime who is Tywin's son, and Tyrion will never inherit Casterly Rock from Tywin. He has to tolerate Tyrion's existence, since "I cannot prove that you are not mine", but he will not tolerate Casterly Rock going to him (no objections for Winterfell, the seat of enemies of Tywin).

Don't try to maintain that Tywin has the same kind of feelings towards Jaime.

[Gibzit]

The assertion was that every child in Westeros dreams of dragons in the same way Tyrion did. But now, you're comparing him to Septon Barth, probably the most learned man in the history of Westeros. I'd guess that still paints Tyrion as being special...

Since when does Tyrion being special make him a Targaryen? Can't he be special and smart as a Lannister?

[Wouter]

Since when does Tyrion being special make him a Targaryen? Can't he be special and smart as a Lannister?

Read http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125646-ajt-v-3/ . The opening post is a beautiful piece of work, and it explains which hints exist that may point to Tyrion being a Targaryan (and still a Lannister, too, of course). It will greatly help with your understanding of the theory, as you misrepresent it with the quote above.

I was responding to a claim that every child in Westeros is just as fascinated by dragons, and dreaming about them, as Tyrion was as a child. I pointed out that we have no other examples, despite having the POV's of multiple children.

The fascination with dragons is one of many clues which point to Tyrion's parentage being less clear cut then generally thought. The quote I just posted above is another important part of that: Tywin himself says in no uncertain terms that he doesn't consider Tyrion to be his son, and he actually means it (it is not just something said in anger and forgotten later). The conventional explanation is that Tywin can't accept that he fathered a dwarf, the alternative that we consider (Tywin happens to be correct; Tyrion is not his son) is apparently "insulting" to some. But IMO Martin has planned it that way.

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion grew up as very lonely child. He does not suspect that his dragon dreams are something special and suspects that every lonely or mistreated child's avenge fantasies may manifest themselves in the sort of dreams Tyrion had. Yet there is indeed no sign that this is actually the case, and Tyrion's obsession with dragons is actually strange. Perhaps it was caused by him reading early about dragons, but this is not all that likely as a boy reading about dragons would have soon realized that dragons were extinct - instead he made a fool of himself when asking his uncles for a small dragon as a nameday present. That could be hint that Tyrion dreamed about dragons long before he had actually read about them, and only became specifically interested in them after he began dreaming about them.

As a Lannister revenge fantasies involving animals are more likely to involve lions than dragons due to the Lannister connection to lions.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The assertion was that every child in Westeros dreams of dragons in the same way Tyrion did. But now, you're comparing him to Septon Barth, probably the most learned man in the history of Westeros. I'd guess that still paints Tyrion as being special...

Tywin gave Tyrion Winterfell (only if he could take and hold it, mind; he would have to get rid of the Boltons, possibly of the Ironmen too, and get the northmen and Sansa to accept him in the process) because Winterfell is very far from Casterly Rock. By giving Tyrion a consolation prize, he avoids further design on Casterly Rock that could threaten Jaime and/or Cersei, the children he actually wants to inherit. Tywin's most fervent wish was that Tyrion would not get his due, being the heir of Casterly Rock (of course, this is understandable if Tyrion isn't even Tywin's child to start with). If the dwarf/the bastard of Aerys wants to defile Winterfell and turn it into a whorehouse, that's no concern of his. The joke would be on the Starks in general and Sansa in particular.

You say "Tywin says such things to his sons in anger". But you missed that he said this to Tyrion as well, when he was not angry beforehand (Tyrion had done a good job, after all):

This passage says it all: it's Jaime who is Tywin's son, and Tyrion will never inherit Casterly Rock from Tywin. He has to tolerate Tyrion's existence, since "I cannot prove that you are not mine", but he will not tolerate Casterly Rock going to him (no objections for Winterfell, the seat of enemies of Tywin).

Don't try to maintain that Tywin has the same kind of feelings towards Jaime.

It still holds... You don't have to be a Targaryen to be fascinated by dragons..

Tywin gave Tyrion Winterfell... No, he was willing to do so, and had Winterfell already in his own hands.. The ironmen were gone, the Boltons were listening to the Iron Throne.. Nothing (except for Tyrion's stubborness itself) would stand in the way of marrying Tyrion to Sansa and having him father a child on her, which the north could only accept, as such a child would be Ned's grandchild..

"Since I cannot prove you are not mine" is not the same as "You are not my son"... The first speaks of no certainty, the second does... And does Tywin not sound angry in that conversation? I think he does. Jaime is about to arrive home, whole, or so Tywin believes, and as we are shown later, Tywin was completely prepared for the idea of Jaime leaving the KG and going to CR... That Tyrion would come in and ask for CR right at the moment where Tywin might get his golden heir back, after 18 years, is just extremely bad timing, on Tyrion account (though he could not know that).

Tywin calls Tyrion his son in A Game of Thrones, and according to Tyrion, that is because Tywin has given Jaime up for lost.. Acknowledging Tyrion as his last son.. If Tywin truly believed that Tyrion wasn´t his, why would he do that?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We know of no Lannisters that have pale blond hair to adulthood (Tommen's turns blond as he ages). We also know of no Lannisters with black hair -- Tyrion's black streaks potentially coming from Betha Blackwood. Who is the source of the black hair on the Lannister side and why have we seen no other Lannisters with black hair?

What other mothers of principal characters are discussed in the series that died in childbirth? Of course other mothers likely died in childbirth -- but to make this connection among main characters likely is more than just a coincidence on the part of GRRM. And Dany was the third to survive infancy -- so the similarity remains. But are you suggesting that there are not more similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion than would be possible just be coincidence? And if there are significant similarities, why did GRRM make those similarities if not to suggest a connection?

We have seen Lannisters with blak hair..

Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

In fact, the black-haired offspring of Lannisters were quite important in A Game of Thrones. In the cases presented, all were offspring of a Lannister and a Baratheon, but the result remains: there can be Lannisters with black hair.

Where Tyrion's came from? Seeing as no one in his family seems to find it odd, there will be black-haired offspring somewhere....

Yes, the RLJ clues are less capable of alternative explanation. But the ATJ clues, taken together, form a strong set of clues (even if no one clue is dispositive) that the implication is fairly strong. There simply is no adequate alternative explanation for why GRRM would have built in so many clues if they are all false leads.

And that is what I am missing..

[UnmaskedLurker]

We have seen Lannisters with blak hair..

Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

In fact, the black-haired offspring of Lannisters were quite important in A Game of Thrones. In the cases presented, all were offspring of a Lannister and a Baratheon, but the result remains: there can be Lannisters with black hair.

Where Tyrion's came from? Seeing as no one in his family seems to find it odd, there will be black-haired offspring somewhere....

And that is what I am missing..

But the dark-haired Lannisters are not ancestors to Tywin or Joanna. Their offspring became Baratheon. Where is the black-haird ancestor to Tywin or Joanna that could have supplied the dark hair?

And if you are looking for the level of confidence in other theories that you get with RLJ, then you are going to be waiting forever (or until the actual "reveal"). I think GRRM actually regrets the extent to which he made RLJ clues such that no real potential alternative became realistically possible. GRRM will not give those level of definitive clues for ATJ -- whether true or not true. The point is to look at the clues and decide whether the accumulation of clues makes it likely enough to make a presumption about it being true. With ATJ, I think that standard has been met. If you want a higher standard, you simply won't get it -- GRRM will not give it.

[RoamingRonin]

A hidden Blackfyre and a hidden Targaryen walk down the street when...:

“Henceforth think of them as our little secrets, Varys.” Tyrion glanced up at the eunuch in his smelly mummer’s garb. “Assuming you are on my side . . .”

“Can you doubt it?”

“Why no, I trust you implicitly.” A bitter laugh echoed off the shuttered windows. “I trust you like one of my own blood, in truth. Now tell me how Cortnay Penrose died.”