Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Yeah sure any kid could be fascinated by dragons, that goes without saying. Martin though, has chosen to show us over and over and over that Tyrion specifically of all the characters (save Dany) is over-the-top obsessed with them. he dreams about them often, has had terrible nightmares and dreams his whole life, similar to Dany and Dareon. He has always wanted to fly one, and while I know I will be countered with "Well so does Arya", but come on now, she has no where near the amount of dialogue or inner monologue about Dragons that Tyrion does, he has just as much or more than Dany and Arya has maybe 3 sentences total in all 4 books. And Drogon was seen by only Tyrion on the boat, book and show. The point is, what is the literary purpose of slamming this point home again and again wrt Tyrion and dragons, while simultaneously making it very clear that his mother had an affair with a Targaryen king? He is not the mummer's dragons, fAegon is, fAegon is what Martin has used as a distraction to keep us satisfied that there are already 3 heads of the dragon, so we are not looking for another (well some of us are, most on this forum see fAegon for what he is). Tyrion being the son of Aerys is not obvious, not at all, you really have to look hard for it, so there is no way it is a red herring or some joke being played on us by the author, so the only other option is that he is a king's bastard. So the question remains what is literary purpose of his mother having an affair with the king and him being obsessed with dragons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 @RT, I read your post in the last thread and no worries. I love discussing this stuff, we are cool, it's fine to have a disagreement on one thread and be fine on the others :) I am just excited for the day when we win you over :drunk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Yeah sure any kid could be fascinated by dragons, that goes without saying. Martin though, has chosen to show us over and over and over that Tyrion specifically of all the characters (save Dany) is over-the-top obsessed with them. he dreams about them often, has had terrible nightmares and dreams his whole life, similar to Dany and Dareon. He has always wanted to fly one, and while I know I will be countered with "Well so does Arya", but come on now, she has no where near the amount of dialogue or inner monologue about Dragons that Tyrion does, he has just as much or more than Dany and Arya has maybe 3 sentences total in all 4 books. And Drogon was seen by only Tyrion on the boat, book and show. The point is, what is the literary purpose of slamming this point home again and again wrt Tyrion and dragons, while simultaneously making it very clear that his mother had an affair with a Targaryen king? He is not the mummer's dragons, fAegon is, he is what Martin has used as a distraction to keep us satisfied that there are already 3 heads of the dragon, so we are not looking for another (well some of us aren't, most on this forum see fAegon for what he is). Tyrion being the son of Aerys is not obvious, not at all, you really have to look hard for it, so there is no way it is a red herring or some joke being played on us by the author, so the only other option is that he is a king's bastard. So the question remains what is literary purpose of his mother having an affair with the king and him being obsessed with dragons? Yes, the question remains as to why GRRM would drop so many clues. Now when people pick at each one individually -- like saying that lots of kids in Westeros probably dreamed of dragons -- it completely ignores that the readers are not told of any of these other characters. Why? Why choose to inform the readers of Tyrion's obsession with dragons? It is like all the clues -- each one on its own, if it were the only clue, would not be enough to indicate ATJ (although the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion are fairly persuasive on their own, but arguably those are multiple clues as there are multiple similarities). But as I keep saying, taken together as a whole, it is hard to understand why GRRM would drop so many clues in one direction just to have them explained away as not being clues. As SS notes, the clues are not explicit enough to qualify as red herrings. No one has been able to explain to me why GRRM dropped all these clues in favor of ATJ in a way that is really coherent. They merely rely upon case-by-case explanations for how each clue in isolation might be an innocent coincidence. At some point, the "coincidences" become too numerous to chalk up to coincidence. In the end, in most cases, it seems that objectors to ATJ simply argue against they theory because they don't like the idea for personal reasons. I have tried to put all personal preference out of my mind when analyzing the clues in ASOIAF. Now I admit that story arc analysis is a valid form of analysis and personal judgment is involved in figuring out where GRRM seems to be taking each character's story arc. But saying that this theory would "ruin" the Tywin/Tyrion relationship is not really a story arc analysis when Tywin is dead and the fairly persuasive arguments can be made that the development of ATJ makes the relationship more rather than less interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 ^^^ Also, the stuff about Tyrion loving dragons/dreaming or them is only important to his character because his mother had an affair with the Mad King. for someone like Arya, whom we know 100% who her parents are, no question, there is no reason to even bring her into the discussion. In fact she is a perfect example of a random Westerosi child who like dragons cuz dragons are cool, but we know for sure she is not a Targaryen. In the case of Tyrion he is far more obsessed than Arya and his mother absolutely had an affair with Aerys, and was in the vicinity with him sometime in the year prior to tyrions birth, and they possibly slept together at that point as well. there are simply too many hints for this to be ignored or written off as just a kid who like dragons (especially because he is still thinking of them constantly and dreaming of them in DwD when he is no longer a kid but a 30+ year old man who should have grown out of his dragon fascination long ago were it just a slight fancy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 My biggest problem with this theory is why the hell would any woman sleep with Aerys? He was one crazy motherfucker and we know he didn't look that great, he also insulted Joanna in public and was generaly not very desirable.And if she was raped, why not tell Tywin? Why not drink moon tea? Why birth the child of someone who raped you? I don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 "Since I cannot prove you are not mine" is not the same as "You are not my son"... The first speaks of no certainty, the second does... And does Tywin not sound angry in that conversation? I think he does. Both speak of certainty, but in the first case, Tywin is unable to convince others in such a way that they also have no doubt that Tyrion is not his son. This is something Tywin said, directly and in private, to Tyrion. He did not say "I have doubts whether or not you are mine". He said "I can't prove you're not mine" and coupled this with a clear statement to Tyrion: you will never be my heir. I see no doubts here, only strong conviction. Tywin sure became angry during the conversation, but that was only because Tyrion asked his due (he is the lawful heir of Tywin - Jaime can't inherit and he comes before Cersei). Before Tyrion demanded to be named heir, he wasn't angry. After all, Tyrion had just woken up from being wounded in the defense of KL and Tywin knew Tyrion had done a great job. That Tywin later gave Winterfell to Tyrion is merely another ploy to get him away from Casterly Rock: distract him with something else, as long as Jaime (or Cersei, if needs be) gets CR. As for why Tyrion suddenly was his son at the end of AGOT: he needed Tyrion to get KL under control. "You're not my son, I will not reward you for a good job and you'll never inherit for me" probably wasn't considered to be a great motivational speech (unless he wanted Tyrion to defect to Renly or Robb Stark). The conversation that I quoted followed after Tyrion did ask a reward for his service as acting hand. As soon as Tywin didn't need Tyrion anymore, no more son of his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 My biggest problem with this theory is why the hell would any woman sleep with Aerys? He was one crazy motherfucker and we know he didn't look that great, he also insulted Joanna in public and was generaly not very desirable. And if she was raped, why not tell Tywin? Why not drink moon tea? Why birth the child of someone who raped you? I don't get it. He wasn't batshit crazy or all gross and unkempt at the time. That started after Duskendale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 My biggest problem with this theory is why the hell would any woman sleep with Aerys? He was one crazy motherfucker and we know he didn't look that great, he also insulted Joanna in public and was generaly not very desirable. And if she was raped, why not tell Tywin? Why not drink moon tea? Why birth the child of someone who raped you? I don't get it. Tyrion is born about 3 years or so prior to Duskendale. At that time, Aerys was a bit of a jerk, but he was not totally crazy and his looks had not deteriorated yet. So we don't know whether Joanna was attracted to him enough to was to sleep with him despite being married to Tywin. As to what to do if she had been raped, it is possible that Tywin knew -- perhaps she tried moon tea and it failed. We have reason to believe from Cersei that moon tea might not always be effective (apparently she needed more "drastic" measures to get rid of a pregnancy from Robert). Just because the readers don't have enough information to understand fully what happened or what motivated characters does not mean we should discount the clues. WOIAF painted a very different Tywin than what the main series paints -- more willing to be pushed around by Aerys than what one might have believed based solely on the main series. Just because it would appear that Joanna would not keep a child does not mean we know that she would not. We know little about Joanna. Maybe Tywin could have been the father (based on having been together around the same time) and they did not want to risk killing Tywin's true-born child. Whatever the reason might be -- GRRM is not going to reveal it until after the "big reveal" so that sort of thinking cannot help in unraveling the mystery. The clues all point to Tyrion as a Targ bastard. There are many possible reasons he was not aborted, even if the product of rape. So the fact that he was not aborted is not enough of a "clue" to undermine all of the other clues in favor of AJT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 He wasn't batshit crazy or all gross and unkempt at the time. That started after Duskendale. Even before Duskendale he was amazingly arbitrary and rather stupid. Also There is this quote: In 272, to celebrate Aerys's tenth year on the Iron Throne, Tywin hosted the Anniversary Tourney in Lannisport. Lady Joanna Lannister returned to King's Landing for this event, bringing with her her six-year old twins, Cersei and Jamie. Drunkenly, Aerys asked Joanna if giving suck had ruined her breasts. Whilst the question was a great amusement for Lord Tywin's rivals, it humiliated Lady Joanna. Lord Tywin attempted to resign the next morning, but Aerys refused to accept. And thus, Tywin Lannister remained Hand of the King I am sure that she would really want to sleep with him after this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeIAF Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 I was really eager to start a new version, but Unmaskedlurker gave me a PM, and i think it is better for this thread to be closed so that he can start a new Version 4 thread with the OP made by him and with the theories presented there. So, please mods close it so he can start one again as it should have been done in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I feel like there are quite a few zeros missing from the version number. And you can't use the show as evidence for things in the books. Especially after the debacle they are making of this season. Hell they probably will make st tyrion the white a targ now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 My biggest problem with this theory is why the hell would any woman sleep with Aerys? He was one crazy motherfucker and we know he didn't look that great, he also insulted Joanna in public and was generaly not very desirable. And if she was raped, why not tell Tywin? Why not drink moon tea? Why birth the child of someone who raped you? I don't get it. Aerys was just as much of a hottie as any other Targ in his youth. I was really eager to start a new version, but Unmaskedlurker gave me a PM, and i think it is better for this thread to be closed so that he can start a new Version 4 thread with the OP made by him and with the theories presented there. So, please mods close it so he can start one again as it should have been done in the first place. We have already started this. Just copy and paste from UL's last thread (V.3) and redo the OP on this thread, it's too much trouble to start a new one now :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Even before Duskendale he was amazingly arbitrary and rather stupid. Also There is this quote: In 272, to celebrate Aerys's tenth year on the Iron Throne, Tywin hosted the Anniversary Tourney in Lannisport. Lady Joanna Lannister returned to King's Landing for this event, bringing with her her six-year old twins, Cersei and Jamie. Drunkenly, Aerys asked Joanna if giving suck had ruined her breasts. Whilst the question was a great amusement for Lord Tywin's rivals, it humiliated Lady Joanna. Lord Tywin attempted to resign the next morning, but Aerys refused to accept. And thus, Tywin Lannister remained Hand of the King I am sure that she would really want to sleep with him after this. There is no way to know anything Joanna has ever thought. I agree that a little bit more info on her would help or break this theory. But alas there is none. I seriously doubt that her 'wanting' to sleep with him or not had very little do with the sex happening. I think this is a clear indication of Aerys being childish and jealous, he definitely had feeling for Joanna, possibly even loved her, definitely couldnt stand the golden twins that her and Tywin had just had. And he wanted to knock Twyin down any way that he could. Plus he was drunk, he could have easily ordered her to his bed chamber that night, then Tywin tried to resign the next morning, makes sense right? We have established that many slights to Tywin had never made him resign previously even though some of them were far more severe than a drunken jape at some breasts. For instance Tywin did not stick up for the head of his Hand's Guard when Aerys went to rip out his tongue. Tywin never spoke out or retaliated in anyway, this does not strike me as a man who resign over something so meaningless as drunken flirting, however if Aerys did call Joanna to his bed that night, then THAT would be a big enough reason for TYwin to resign the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Aerys was just as much of a hottie as any other Targ in his youth. We have already started this. Just copy and paste from UL's last thread (V.3) and redo the OP on this thread, it's too much trouble to start a new one now :) Except it is not that simple. Some additional coding is necessary to make sure the spoiler boxes are updated and convert over properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 There is no way to know anything Joanna has ever thought. I agree that a little bit more info on her would help or break this theory. But alas there is none. I seriously doubt that her 'wanting' to sleep with him or not had very little do with the sex happening. I think this is a clear indication of Aerys being childish and jealous, he definitely had feeling for Joanna, possibly even loved her, definitely couldnt stand the golden twins that her and Tywin had just had. And he wanted to knock Twyin down any way that he could. Plus he was drunk, he could have easily ordered her to his bed chamber that night, then Tywin tried to resign the next morning, makes sense right? We have established that many slights to Tywin had never made him resign previously even though some of them were far more severe than a drunken jape at some breasts. For instance Tywin did not stick up for the head of his Hand's Guard when Aerys went to rip out his tongue. Tywin never spoke out or retaliated in anyway, this does not strike me as a man who resign over something so meaningless as drunken flirting, however if Aerys did call Joanna to his bed that night, then THAT would be a big enough reason for TYwin to resign the next day. Yet somehow having Aerys bang his wife is a small enough insult for Tywin to bow down his head and say "ok" when Aerys refuses to let him resign. Anyway, why would she come to his bed if he just humiliated her in front of the entire court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Please continue the discussion through this link that has the entire OP reprinted and updated: new A+J=T v.4. GeorgeIF (the OP for this thread) has asked that his thread be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Yet somehow having Aerys bang his wife is a small enough insult for Tywin to bow down his head and say "ok" when Aerys refuses to let him resign. Anyway, why would she come to his bed if he just humiliated her in front of the entire court? He is the king, you can't really defy him. If you ask something of the king and he says "no" what can you do but bow down you head and say "ok?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 He is the king, you can't really defy him. If you ask something of the king and he says "no" what can you do but bow down you head and say "ok?" Ask Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Ask Jon Arryn. Yeah I'm sure Tywin would have had lots of luck recruiting people into his "the king fucked my wife" rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeIAF Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 You can close it now that Unmaskedlurker opened his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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