protar Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Why do you continue to watch?I'm seriously not trying to be a dick I'm genuinely curious as to why you continue to watch a show that you think is so bad?I think True blood is horrible. I watched an episode or two years ago & just really hated it. So... I quit watching it. Hatewatching is actually pretty fun. You watch the show, laugh/cry at how bad it is, and then come on here and tumblr and snark about it. Plus it provides some interesting avenues for analysing the books and throws their qualities into an even better light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetudo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I want to change my vote to a 10 to counteract some of the 1's.Seriously 1? I wouldn't sit through a whole episode of something I would rate at a 1 & if you didn't watch the whole thing you have no business rating it.I think the biggest problem is that we know what is 'supposed' to happen or what could have happened.The argument that this or that just isn't realistic cracks me up. None of this is realistic... Its fake, fantasy, fiction.My unsullied friends have thoroughly enjoyed the season so far. That's not to say they don't critique the episode & find things they don't like. My sister seriously laughed at the fight in Dorne. That was pretty bad. But the rest of it was pretty good. Some parts better than others. Good in different ways like Arya & little girl, that was sad, Tyrion & Jorah scenes a little comical, a little frightening. Theon/Sansa/Ramsay repulsive, maddening.My point is the show elicits emotion. All sort of emotions. That's what a good show is supposed to do. To rate it a 1 seems as if either you are a book purist & cannot stand the fact things have changed or nothing ever will make you happy. Of course that's just my opinion. Feel free to flay me for it though...Your argument cracks me up. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean that there are no rules anymore. Would you still like movies like James Bond if the actor was able to fall from a tower and land without being injured? Or TLotR if Frodo transformed himself int a fucking fire breathing giant that destroyed Sauron's army in the blink of an eye? This show was supposed to be "TLotR meets The Sopranos", not "The Transformers". It's clearly supposed to be minimally realistic, and that's what made it such a huge success in the first place. If we wanted to see crazy things, we'd stick with Fast and Furious or Narnia movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Why do you continue to watch?I'm seriously not trying to be a dick I'm genuinely curious as to why you continue to watch a show that you think is so bad?I think True blood is horrible. I watched an episode or two years ago & just really hated it. So... I quit watching it. me too curious about it .. i watched couple of episodes of show called 100 and didnt like it thought it was another show that is a rip off of LOST only to be set in space ... but i think hate watching gives an interesting enjoyment just what i thought ..it should be really fun Edited May 19, 2015 by Drogonthedread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Hatewatching is actually pretty fun. You watch the show, laugh/cry at how bad it is, and then come on here and tumblr and snark about it. Plus it provides some interesting avenues for analysing the books and throws their qualities into an even better light.Gotcha. I guess I'm just not disciplined enough because I could not sit through a show I hated. To each his own though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) The show is undeniably riddled with plot holes and inconsistencies. The show apologists seldom actually come up with proper rebuttals to the complaints about the show, they just stick their fingers in their ears and shout argument ad populum at the top of their lungs. I would dearly love to see someone, anyone, analyse the Dornish plot line this season and come to the conclusion that it makes good television. Why is this show good? If you want to have a discussion you need to actually look at the show and tell me what is so great about it, not blather about how many people watch it. Sure, the show has plotholes (albeit not nearly as many as some people on this forum like to think), but the thing is, almost all works of fiction have serious plotholes (the books included; it makes no sense why the Greyjoys attacked the North instead of sacking the Westerlands except that GRRM needed them to for other plot reasons). We accept and ignore these plotholes for the most part because otherwise we'd have no fiction to enjoy. Except in this case, where some people here are acting like Game of Thrones needs to be something perfect, which almost never happens and is totally unrealistic, and are attacking the show because it isn't. The books are fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more; the show is also fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more. The books aren't To Kill a Mockingbird and the show isn't The Wire. Edited May 19, 2015 by Fez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadco26 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The show has had good episodes in the past. Good seasons even. So some people watch hoping that they might see some of that return. If the entire show had been the level of this season then I would have stopped in season one. Even now there are still good individual scenes. They are just becoming rarer this season. I'd rather be "spoiled" by seeing things first hand than read about it some where and there is entertainment value in pointing out how ridiculous some of their changes are. On the plus side they have deviated so much that it would be difficult to know if anything from this season is a spoiler. Honestly people who love the show should be happy that people who don't like the direction they are going are still watching. Viewership numbers don't care why some one watched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Your argument cracks me up. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean that there are no rules anymore. Would you still like movies like James Bond if the actor was able to fall from a tower and land without being injured? Or TLotR if Frodo transformed himself int a fucking fire breathing giant that destroyed Sauron's army in the blink of an eye? This show was supposed to be "TLotR meets The Sopranos", not "The Transformers". It's clearly supposed to be minimally realistic, and that's what made it such a huge success in the first place. If we wanted to see crazy things, we'd stick with Fast and Furious or Narnia movies.I didn't say there were no rules. Where in the show do things like you mentioned happen? One of the things I see people griping about is that it doesn't take long enough to get from place to place. That Jaime couldn't have gotten to Dorne that fast etc. Well, how are they going to show that with out being miserably boring for one & for two show watchers don't know how far away Dorne is. These are changes that were necessary to put aSoIaF on screen. As for your questions about would I like this show or that show if this or that happened. Idk. I'm not a big fan of James Bond to begin with so maybe I would like it better that way. I'm not getting your argument here anyway. That is no less realistic than Dragons, magic, wargs, & direwolves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Sure, the show has plotholes (albeit not nearly as many as some people on this forum like to think), but the thing is, almost all works of fiction have serious plotholes (the books included; it makes no sense why the Greyjoys attacked the North instead of sacking the Westerlands except that GRRM needed them to for other plot reasons). We accept and ignore these plotholes for the most part because otherwise we'd have no fiction to enjoy. Except in this case, where some people here are acting like Game of Thrones needs to be something perfect, which almost never happens and is totally unrealistic, and are attacking the show because it isn't. The books are fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more; the show is also fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more. The books aren't To Kill a Mockingbird and the show isn't The Wire. Well I just can't agree with that. The books are modern classics, some of the finest work the contemporary fantasy genre has to offer. Some of the finest the genre has to offer period. But of course, some people see nothing more than boobs and dragons. If you only want to enjoy the books in that shallow manner be my guest, but you're missing 90% of the story by doing so. But the show? The show is just that top 10% layer. I have no doubt that you can find plot holes in ASOIAF. But to this extent? No. For the most part ASOIAF is very tightly plotted with a lot of effort put into realism and believability. The show on the other hand has practically no internal consistency at this point, relying on pure bamboozlement to stop people from noticing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravosi42 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Sure, the show has plotholes (albeit not nearly as many as some people on this forum like to think), but the thing is, almost all works of fiction have serious plotholes (the books included; it makes no sense why the Greyjoys attacked the North instead of sacking the Westerlands except that GRRM needed them to for other plot reasons). We accept and ignore these plotholes for the most part because otherwise we'd have no fiction to enjoy. Except in this case, where some people here are acting like Game of Thrones needs to be something perfect, which almost never happens and is totally unrealistic, and are attacking the show because it isn't. The books are fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more; the show is also fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more. The books aren't To Kill a Mockingbird and the show isn't The Wire.probably not the right place to say it but yeah basically a lot of the heat in this is generated by the fact that 1. folk in these parts think we are talking about the gospel, rather than a bloody good fantasy book, one of the best. 2. a corrolary is that there is very full on identification with some of the characters in the books and their plotlines (real or imagined). you mess with sansa of vale gables or arianne "daddy issues" martell at your peril. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Sure, the show has plotholes (albeit not nearly as many as some people on this forum like to think), but the thing is, almost all works of fiction have serious plotholes (the books included; it makes no sense why the Greyjoys attacked the North instead of sacking the Westerlands except that GRRM needed them to for other plot reasons). We accept and ignore these plotholes for the most part because otherwise we'd have no fiction to enjoy. Except in this case, where some people here are acting like Game of Thrones needs to be something perfect, which almost never happens and is totally unrealistic, and are attacking the show because it isn't. The books are fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more; the show is also fun, well-written pulpy genre fiction, nothing more. The books aren't To Kill a Mockingbird and the show isn't The Wire. The Greyjoys attacked the North because Balon was an idiot who was obsessed with revenge against the Starks and wanted to 'pay the iron price' and do what they always did in the recent past. I don't know that this qualifies as a plot hole, but yes, there are some plot holes in the books, nothing like the obvious glaring ones in the show though. GOT aspires to be like The Wire in terms of quality. It is talked about as a quality show which makes the blatant continuity errors and sloppiness all the more infuriating. Oh, and the audience was down again, worst rating since 2013, so it's not just the minority of nerds who are reacting to the drop in quality this year and can no longer be ignored or brushed aside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadco26 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I didn't say there were no rules. Where in the show do things like you mentioned happen?One of the things I see people griping about is that it doesn't take long enough to get from place to place. That Jaime couldn't have gotten to Dorne that fast etc. Well, how are they going to show that with out being miserably boring for one & for two show watchers don't know how far away Dorne is. These are changes that were necessary to put aSoIaF on screen.People want consistency. Sure speeding up travel can completely make sense at times and be waved off as time passed off screen. What doesn't make sense is Brienne taking half a season to get from King's Landing to the Crossroads Inn, when Littlefinger can make it from winterfell to King's Landing in one episode for example. People traveling the exact same routes and taking drastically different amounts of time to get where they are going, yet very small amounts of time passing for all the other characters. Even if we say that Littlefinger made the trip and the appropriate time passed off screen, that would mean that Loras has been in captivity for a month or longer prior to the "trial". Hence describing Littlefinger as "teleporting". If they waited 2 episodes before Littlefinger arrived then it would be a completely plausible explanation to say he traveled during that time. If that was the worst complaint about the show then you are right that it would be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Well I just can't agree with that. The books are modern classics, some of the finest work the contemporary fantasy genre has to offer. Some of the finest the genre has to offer period. But of course, some people see nothing more than boobs and dragons. If you only want to enjoy the books in that shallow manner be my guest, but you're missing 90% of the story by doing so. But the show? The show is just that top 10% layer. I have no doubt that you can find plot holes in ASOIAF. But to this extent? No. For the most part ASOIAF is very tightly plotted with a lot of effort put into realism and believability. The show on the other hand has practically no internal consistency at this point, relying on pure bamboozlement to stop people from noticing. The books are FAR from modern classics. They are classics of fantasy, but not of all literature. Its not a question of not seeing how deep the books are, its that they aren't that deep. GRRM has quite good prose, and that's something that's gotten better over time; but the books themselves are a well-built epic fantasy soap-opera. True literary classics do more than provide diverting entertainment, they elevate us; they can make us think about the world or aspects of it in ways we hadn't before, they can inspire us, they can devastate us, they can introspection like little else. A true classic can change some small part of the world. ASOIAF does none of that. The books are quite good, but nothing worthy of reverence. ETA: And the show isn't as good as last season, I won't deny that. I still think it is very good though. Although I never would have put on the very top tier of TV shows. The only reason it gets talked about that way is because it is the only "water cooler" show left in the US besides The Walking Dead, and nearly everyone agrees that it is much better than that show. Edited May 19, 2015 by Fez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsyao Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The Greyjoys attacked the North because Balon was an idiot who was obsessed with revenge against the Starks and wanted to 'pay the iron price' and do what they always did in the recent past. I don't know that this qualifies as a plot hole, but yes, there are some plot holes in the books, nothing like the obvious glaring ones in the show though. No, Balon attacked North because the North is at her weakest point, and he bet correctly the North would lose the war Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravosi42 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Well I just can't agree with that. The books are modern classics, some of the finest work the contemporary fantasy genre has to offer. Some of the finest the genre has to offer period. But of course, some people see nothing more than boobs and dragons. If you only want to enjoy the books in that shallow manner be my guest, but you're missing 90% of the story by doing so. But the show? The show is just that top 10% layer. I have no doubt that you can find plot holes in ASOIAF. But to this extent? No. For the most part ASOIAF is very tightly plotted with a lot of effort put into realism and believability. The show on the other hand has practically no internal consistency at this point, relying on pure bamboozlement to stop people from noticing.a feature of the written form as opposed to tv is that it allows for interpolation ( and this is of course what makes it beloved by fandom). all manner of preposterous interpretations can be made for your favourite characters in the universe. or explanations for ridiculous decisions that advance the plot.nothing that d&d have put on screen has yet surpassed the 2 consecutive chapters where jeyne westerling is married and the kingslayer released. nuts, pure plot devices and the red wedding follows as surely as night follows day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) The books are FAR from modern classics. They are classics of fantasy, but not of all literature. Its not a question of not seeing how deep the books are, its that they aren't that deep. GRRM has quite good prose, and that's something that's gotten better over time; but the books themselves are a well-built epic fantasy soap-opera. True literary classics do more than provide diverting entertainment, they elevate us; they can make us think about the world or aspects of it in ways we hadn't before, they can inspire us, they can devastate us, they can introspection like little else. A true classic can change some small part of the world. ASOIAF does none of that. The books are quite good, but nothing worthy of reverence. "Classics of fantasy literature, but not of all literature." - okay say no more, I get it: You're a genre snob. Lots of people are, I think it's part of why GoT is not held up to the scrutiny of other shows. The show surpasses the extremely low expectations people have of fantasy, so they don't expect anything more and don't look any deeper. ASOIAF may do none of that for you, but the books have certainly inspired me, and changed my world. The books are incredibly deep, you could write a dissertation on each POV character. And ultimately the books are really good. For me that is the only true measure of a classic: Quality. If the story is no good, all the philosophical depth in the world is meaningless. Edited May 19, 2015 by protar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kefln Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I'm not denying that a lot of people still like the show, I'm simply having trouble comprehending why. Well, that's not really true - I know that the general public laps this stuff up, it's the same reason why the Transformers movies can make billions of dollars. The show is undeniably riddled with plot holes and inconsistencies. The show apologists seldom actually come up with proper rebuttals to the complaints about the show, they just stick their fingers in their ears and shout argument ad populum at the top of their lungs. I would dearly love to see someone, anyone, analyse the Dornish plot line this season and come to the conclusion that it makes good television. Why is this show good? If you want to have a discussion you need to actually look at the show and tell me what is so great about it, not blather about how many people watch it. And to be honest, I think the drop in quality is beginning to show. I know my family are beginning to grow bored with the show, and many of the Unsullied seem to be nearing the end of their rope. After this episode the critics are finally starting to actually criticise the show and viewing figures have dropped below that of a previous season for the first time in the show's history. I'm guessing a lot of people would say that there are certain members of the book readers club who "stick their fingers in their ears and shout argument ad populum at the top of their lungs" at any change at all. As for the viewing figures according to everything I've seen they are still holding high. The US Cable ratings has episode #5 down as the most watched program of its time slot, over the NBA play offs. In Europe its ratings are still killing every other show, to the best of my knowledge. So if its still the most watched show on TV...kind of kills your point doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetudo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I didn't say there were no rules. Where in the show do things like you mentioned happen?One of the things I see people griping about is that it doesn't take long enough to get from place to place. That Jaime couldn't have gotten to Dorne that fast etc. Well, how are they going to show that with out being miserably boring for one & for two show watchers don't know how far away Dorne is. These are changes that were necessary to put aSoIaF on screen.As for your questions about would I like this show or that show if this or that happened. Idk. I'm not a big fan of James Bond to begin with so maybe I would like it better that way. I'm not getting your argument here anyway. That is no less realistic than Dragons, magic, wargs, & direwolves...You must be new to any SF/fantasy books if you don't understand this: The first rule for such books is: It has to make sense. Yes, you can add extraordinary elements to your story, but these elements must obey some rules that you're creating yourself. Taking the dragons for example, the books clearly defined what they were (How they look, what are their defining characteristics (flying and breathing fire), how many time does it take for them to grow up, how long do they live, how big they are,...). If, in the next book, we're presented with a horse that transforms himself into a submarine dragon that shits gold, we're going to have a bad time trying to make sense of any of this. Having some "fantasy" elements into your story is not an excuse to bad writing So don't use it as an excuse to justify bad decisions, even if the believable option is more "boring" or "wouldn't made good TV". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I want to change my vote to a 10 to counteract some of the 1's.Seriously 1? I wouldn't sit through a whole episode of something I would rate at a 1 & if you didn't watch the whole thing you have no business rating it. ... To rate it a 1 seems as if either you are a book purist & cannot stand the fact things have changed or nothing ever will make you happy. Of course that's just my opinion. People can watch what ever they want to watch and rate based on whatever criteria they want to rate on. You only rate on things you have positive thoughts on (because of the self censoring process you use) that is fine. On the last point, there is another option: people did not have a positive experience and rated it accordingly. That is perfectly valid and far more honest than hate-voting a 10 due to not liking someone else's rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbrowne Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Your argument cracks me up. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean that there are no rules anymore. Would you still like movies like James Bond if the actor was able to fall from a tower and land without being injured? Or TLotR if Frodo transformed himself int a fucking fire breathing giant that destroyed Sauron's army in the blink of an eye? This show was supposed to be "TLotR meets The Sopranos", not "The Transformers". It's clearly supposed to be minimally realistic, and that's what made it such a huge success in the first place. If we wanted to see crazy things, we'd stick with Fast and Furious or Narnia movies. Care to point out where the show has done similar things as you described to justify your fucking pathetic strawman argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I'm guessing a lot of people would say that there are certain members of the book readers club who "stick their fingers in their ears and shout argument ad populum at the top of their lungs" at any change at all. As for the viewing figures according to everything I've seen they are still holding high. The US Cable ratings has episode #5 down as the most watched program of its time slot, over the NBA play offs. In Europe its ratings are still killing every other show, to the best of my knowledge. So if its still the most watched show on TV...kind of kills your point doesn't it? I didn't say it wasn't still being watched a lot. But it's simply a fact that it's ratings are the lowest it's been in a long time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones#Viewer_numbers For the first time in the show's history episodes are getting lower ratings than episodes of previous seasons. That doesn't mean it still isn't doing very well. But it is undeniably in decline at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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