[Book Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[protar]

I know we're quite preoccupied with more important gripes, but I just really need to get this off of my chest

Okay let's look at the common reasons for recasting a character:

1)actor availability

First off, this shouldn't really be an issue, as they know damn well Myrcella would be back. As show apologists like to repeat, they consult with GRRM. They should have had the foresight to lock in a contract with the actress when the show was taking off in popularity and essentially guaranteed to be seen through to the end. Secondly, the actress expressed a lot of enthusiasm for the show, so I doubt she wouldn't try to keep her schedule open to come back. This is pretty good proof that she wanted so badly to be back on the show

2)Payment negotiations

This doesn't need much explaining. Since neither of these actresses is a big name, it's extremely unlikely that Myrcella 2.0 was any cheaper than Myrcella the first of her name.

3)Unprofessional/hostile work environment

Aimee was talking excitedly about the show very soon before news was released of her being recast. This suggests that their relationship was not an unpleasant one, and that there were no issues in this area. There isn't a whole lot of evidence to say that that's true, but the burden of proof is on the one making the assertive claim. So it's more reasonable, lacking evidence otherwise, to say that there were no human resources issues between the two parties.

4)Aging performer

What I refer to here is that fickle mistress, puberty. We can make older people look younger, but it's harder to make people look believably older than they are. Many child actors lack the life experience to draw from and lack solid direction when trying to act older than they are. Makeup and costume can make them look the part, but it's difficult to fake the je ne sais quoi, the slightly hardened gaze, that indicates age. But then, the two girls look to be about the same age, with neither looking significantly older or younger than the other. So it's unlikely that they believed Aimee looked too young or too old for the part.

Now, as far as I know, these are the four main reasons parts get recast. Usually, it seems like people prefer to keep working with people they're familiar with, as you've established a rapport that makes everything more efficient, and you don't have to start from square 1. So, we have ruled out those 4 common reasons for recasting, and we do not believe the new actress has displayed any significantly higher quality acting...What, then, was the reason for the recasting? I draw a blank, besides the possibility that they didn't think she was beautiful enough to play the teenage daughter of what is supposedly one of the most desirable women in Westeros.

Well...there is actor talent. In S1 and 2 Myrcella is a bit part, supposedly this season she'll have a larger role. It's not inconceivable that they wanted a more talented actress. But not even letting Richardson re-audition is weird. And honestly Myrcella still seems to be a small role, and the writing is so poor that it's not like it matters. An academy award winner couldn't have salvaged this week's scenes.

[Cas Stark]

Maybe they felt that a glorified extra wasn't ready for a premium role?

What premium role are you talking about? How many lines did she have? 4, and not that well delivered I might add. I'm pretty sure a 'glorified extra' couldn't have done much worse.

[OldGimletEye]

Stop looking at this in the context of the show like, "oh of course it makes sense to have this in," or "oh marriages are just like that."

D&D made a conscious decision to put Sansa there because they wanted the brutalization of a character with whom we had "buy-in." Aka it was shock-value. And they defied ALL LOGIC to get here there.

Why the hell are we debating semantics? The intent is obvious.

Yes, this is the bottom line.

[MyLittleFinger]

What premium role are you talking about? How many lines did she have? 4, and not that well delivered I might add. I'm pretty sure a 'glorified extra' couldn't have done much worse.

Did you watch episodes 7-10? Or S6? If you did, please tell me because I want to know what I should be angry about in advance.

[Nefertari]

My jimmies are rustled by those saying Sansa's scene is somehow worse than what happened to Jeyne Poole in the books or worse: pretending Jeyne's bedding never happened and D&D constructed this scene out of thin air for shallow reasons.

And this.

Sansa's scene is just for "shock value" but "I'll do the dog again!" and "Reek, make her ready for me" is somehow layered, brilliant storytelling.

I wish D&D would have done the scene just like it was in the books just so everyone could see how depraved GRRM is. Maybe even after they could write a letter and distance themselves from the controversy too.

Exactly.

I see lots of hipocrisy.

They're mad only because it's Sansa, if it was *insert secondary character name* they couldn't care less about all these *OMG RAPE* arguments.

[Winter's Knight]

Stop looking at this in the context of the show like, "oh of course it makes sense to have this in," or "oh marriages are just like that."

D&D made a conscious decision to put Sansa there because they wanted the brutalization of a character with whom we had "buy-in." Aka it was shock-value. And they defied ALL LOGIC to get here there.

Why the hell are we debating semantics? The intent is obvious.

It makes even less sense because marriages are not like that. a woman's orgasm was considered essential for conception. You're not getting an heir if your wedding night's shite.

Also we're forgetting that most betrothed couples would've known each other for years before getting married.

[R4W13Y]

Whenever LF uses his teleporter it rips holes in the space-time continuum, sucking up random poor souls. Rumour has it that the whole Riverlands and the Iron Islands have been swallowed up.

That explains it! I respectfully take back my critiques of the travel time and the absence of the Riverlands/Northern Lords/Iron Islands now.

Mad Max Fury Road was awesome. Feel happy people!

That and the Mad Men finale helped me to forget the awfulness that was this show. And the fine people of this thread, of course! You're all bringing up such excellent points, fostering great discussion, and also cracking me up!

I think their only hope of making it look good was to throw in so many bodies that it was impossible to tell what was going on. There should have been like, 7 Sand Snakes, Larry, Bronn, Arys, Areo and all of his men, Trystane with his sword, Myrcella with nunchuks, and then Doran could have wheeled into the fray in a spike-covered battle wheelchair with mounted flamethrowers.

Holy shit

:rofl:

Yeah and show Cersei is constatly portrayed as this brave lioness protecting her children. While they got her hunger for power right, it seems show Cersei only wants power, again, to protect her children. Or at least she came off to me that way (after all she threatened Tywin she would out herself and Jaime only to stay by Tommen's side, something which book Cersei would never have done). And yes, Dany's actions made little sense. It's almost like they wanted to show her darker side for whatever reason but didn't know how to do it in a manner which is consistent wiht her show character and also fits into the story well.

Carol loves her children, yet sends Tommen by himself to the dangerous FM and throughout the streets of KL where he has to hear "abomination" and "bastard" yelled at him :rolleyes:

The worst thing about it was that it happened.

To start with, here are Jaime and Bronn just waltzing right into the center of the royal grounds without us even seeing how they got there!

And lo and behold, the Sand Snakes happen to be having their "let's take our sacred revenge!" meeting right then and there. Turns out they have no plan whatsoever - plan! I don't need no stinking plan! - but so what, it just so happens that the Lannisters are attacking right when they walk out the door!

That was as contrived as an Adam West Batman episode. Only thing is, this show isn't supposed to be campy, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes-type humor. It just got there by accident.

First of all, LOVE your avatar. We've discussed the sadness that is Aimee's recasting decision here.

We did see how Jaime and Bronn got into the Water Gardens - the gate was just open!! :lol:

[Cas Stark]

Did you watch episodes 7-10? Or S6? If you did, please tell me because I want to know what I should be angry about in advance.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any 7-10 great dramatic moments from Myrcella II, if I were you. Since we've barely even seen Doran, and he's actually a known commodity, who can act. The idea that Myrcella II is going to get some kind of major role in the last 4 episodes somehow squeezed in between Dany, Jon and Cersei is a long shot.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

What really bothers me is that these clowns don't seem to have a plan. They just make things up as they go.

Some examples:

- In the 1st episode of season 1, in the DVD commentary, Dong said that the girl sitting next to Sansa was Jeyne Poole, which makes me think they were planning to use her. Apparently they changed her mind.

- Last year, they presented Sansa as an all-powerful, all-manipulative woman who totally plays Littlefinger. I really didn't like that because Sansa's growth in the books makes far more sense. This year they changed their mind completely about Sansa's story, which is very inconsistent with what we saw last year.

- When Myrcella was going to Dorne, Arys Oakheart was with her which makes me think they were still planning to do that storyline. I guess they changed their mind about that too.

[Annara Snow]

Just two more things I want to say:

Isn't it astonishing that the Batman franchise has been going on for decades, but no one ever came to the brilliant idea that Bruce Wayne needed to be raped in order to be empowered and start fighting for justice, since the murder of his parents obviously shouldn't be strong enough motivation?

Also, can you imagine the show runners deciding that Tyrion is going to be just randomly gang raped in Essos: "What? It happened in the books, with Maester Kerwin!"

[bobbybuilderton]

Exactly.

I see lots of hipocrisy.

They're mad only because it's Sansa, if it was *insert secondary character name* they couldn't care less about all these *OMG RAPE* arguments.

I suppose you could call it hypocrisy. Or you could call it acknowledging this pesky thing called context. An event in and of itself is not the sole determining factor of if it's okay. Or rather, how wrong it is. It's the classic question of stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family. That's quite obviously a different situation, but it's the same idea. The circumstances leading to what happened matter when you're deciding if you're okay with it. As the author has said before, context, butterfly effect, etc etc. It was his main point when addressing Jaime raping Cersei.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books. . .

Context matters, this is a fact of life and art.

[Wise Fool]

Exactly.

I see lots of hipocrisy.

They're mad only because it's Sansa, if it was *insert secondary character name* they couldn't care less about all these *OMG RAPE* arguments.

What a stupid self-congratulatory "argument." You're basically trying to point out a hypothetical hypocrisy. Ooh, you sure got those hypothetical people reacting to a hypothetical version of the show! Brilliant. And by brilliant I mean you literally could not have made a dumber argument if you tried.

Luckily for everyone, you're going to continue trying.

[Valetudo]

My jimmies are rustled by those saying Sansa's scene is somehow worse than what happened to Jeyne Poole in the books or worse: pretending Jeyne's bedding never happened and D&D constructed this scene out of thin air for shallow reasons.

And this.

Sansa's scene is just for "shock value" but "I'll do the dog again!" and "Reek, make her ready for me" is somehow layered, brilliant storytelling.

I wish D&D would have done the scene just like it was in the books just so everyone could see how depraved GRRM is. Maybe even after they could write a letter and distance themselves from the controversy too.

Of course Jeyne scene is terrible and repulsive. And it was why it was there. You have to look at the consequences of it, not just the scene itself.

After the wedding, Jeyne is broken, and needs a savior. But Sansa will miraculously be a "player". That's why the swap doesn't make sense.

Not because "it's Sansa", but because what will happen next will have no sense.

And the argument about "if they combined the characters, they needed to have this scene" is also ridiculous. Imagine if Trystane and Arianne characters were combined, would we see a scene where Trys tries to seduce a Kingsguard with his big nipples? lol

If you change the characters, you need to edit the story. And you can't drive characters to some destination by transforming completely how they go there.

[Charlie Of House Bucket]

Stop looking at this in the context of the show like, "oh of course it makes sense to have this in," or "oh marriages are just like that."

D&D made a conscious decision to put Sansa there because they wanted the brutalization of a character with whom we had "buy-in." Aka it was shock-value. And they defied ALL LOGIC to get here there.

Why the hell are we debating semantics? The intent is obvious.

I haven't been to this forum in over a year, but I've been enjoying your links. Thanks for the entertaining reading. The Cersei/Carol thing is cracking me up. :)

[MyLittleFinger]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any 7-10 great dramatic moments from Myrcella II, if I were you. Since we've barely even seen Doran, and he's actually a known commodity, who can act. The idea that Myrcella II is going to get some kind of major role in the last 4 episodes somehow squeezed in between Dany, Jon and Cersei is a long shot.

I'm just saying that the OG Myrcella had like 3 lines over 2 seasons. New Myrcella has almost as much screentime in one episode with more involving her plot to come.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

My jimmies are rustled by those saying Sansa's scene is somehow worse than what happened to Jeyne Poole in the books or worse: pretending Jeyne's bedding never happened and D&D constructed this scene out of thin air for shallow reasons.

And this.

Sansa's scene is just for "shock value" but "I'll do the dog again!" and "Reek, make her ready for me" is somehow layered, brilliant storytelling.

I wish D&D would have done the scene just like it was in the books just so everyone could see how depraved GRRM is. Maybe even after they could write a letter and distance themselves from the controversy too.

...*sigh*

fArya has a role to play in Winterfell. Her marriage to Ramsay is one more factor pushing the Northmen towards open conflict with the Bolton-Frey axis of evil. It's gruesome and grotesque but it serves some purpose in the story.

On the show, however, there are no Northmen or Freys in Winterhell, so there is no tension. Without that tension, there is absolutely no reason to include the fArya subplot. At that point, it would just be gratuitous sexual violence. To include it at all would have been bad enough, but to substitute Sansa for fArya - a primary character for a tertiary one - to make it more shocking is just sick.

Now that Sansa has been raped, she will leave Winterfell. What was the point again? What was the point of defying all logic and dismantling several key storylines? Out of everything happening in Winterfell, why was it necessary for Ding & Dong to adapt this subplot - why is this all they kept?

[Sultan of Westeros]

Well...there is actor talent. In S1 and 2 Myrcella is a bit part, supposedly this season she'll have a larger role. It's not inconceivable that they wanted a more talented actress. But not even letting Richardson re-audition is weird. And honestly Myrcella still seems to be a small role, and the writing is so poor that it's not like it matters. An academy award winner couldn't have salvaged this week's scenes.

Acting talent really? Myrcella 2 had just 1 minute of screen time which included 2 kisses. My cat can act the role myrcella had yet in first 6 episodes and shes just a kitten yet.

[Jon Flow]

"However, if someone wants to watch girls getting raped just for the sake of it, with no narrative purpose and as a part of a convoluted storyline that makes no sense and is there just so she could be raped and so there would be maximum pain and humiliation, that someone may have a problem."


No narrative purpose? Or one you haven't seen yet? Do you have the rest of the show leaked or insight into D&D's mind? I think it could very elegantly summarize several of the northern plots. They could also crap the bed.... my point is that I don't know yet. I can only say that the scenes were creepy, well-paced, filled me with dread, and made me uncomfortable which... if I'm not mistaken... was the point.

So instead of complaining that changes were made, maybe go after why the changes are bad? Or complain about changes that tip the scales to ridiculous. (I.E. that water garden scene.)