[BOOK and SHOW SPOILERS] So what is Littlefinger's game now?

[Tadco26]

Some things in this thread that have been raised as questions, problems with LFs plan.

Cerise never knew Sansa was in the Vale because the Vale Lords promised not to tell anyone who she really was and her hair was a different colour.

LF and Sansa got through Moat Calin easily because Roose knew they were coming and sent word to let them pass. At this stage we can think that no-one knew Sansa was Sansa outside of LF, his personal guard, Brienne, Pod and Roose.

And everyone who was at the Inn where Brienne and Pod confronted Littlefinger and Sansa and created a huge scene. And everyone who sees them arrive together at Winterfell, like the old guy that Brienne and Pod talk to.

LF could genuinely not have heard about Ramsay's less than savoury habits because Roose tried to keep a lid on them. How many people beyond Roose, Ramsay, Myranda and now Sansa know Reek is Theon? How many people beyond Reek, Ramsay, Myranda and now Sansa know Ramsay likes hunting girls that bore him? Besides, it may not be the kind of thing LF cared about, or even enquired about. LF would have been more interested in was that Ramsay's title was legitimate, to make sure he is including another power player in his web.

He has been flaying people all over the country side. It can't be that difficult a secret to uncover. In fact I would rather expect it to be common knowledge.

The other problem for Littlefinger's plan is that if Cersei bothered to confirm his story about Sansa being in Winterfell then it would be pretty easy for her to find out that Littlefinger escorted Sansa there and arranged the wedding. If she doesn't bother to confirm his story then he risked the heir of Winterfell for nothing. And of course the other problem with the show is that there aren't any northern lords to even care about a Stark in Wintefell. Roose doesn't mention having any problems with any other northeners. Just the threat of Stannis. If he did have problem with other northern lords and thought that marrying a Stark would matter, shouldn't they be invited to the wedding?

[Lord Damian]

It only takes a knife to kill a person. Money and power can only protect you so much. LF has only survived this long because most of his victims don't really know that he has targeted them. Tyrion has had at least two attempts on his life from LF but has not put two and two together. Sansa, on the other hand, now has good reason to turn against him and if she ever finds out even just one of his acts against her family she will actively want him dead.

Sansa must feel somewhat betrayed by Littlefinger for putting her in this situations. I mean, wow. I will reserved an overall opinion based on the last 4 episodes but this guy, Littlefinger is the orchestrator of half of the damage on Westeros and I am still unsure if he is or is not in league with Varys and Illyrio M.

[ummester]

People at the inn would have been aware of the scene - not necessarily what it was about, or who was involved. Pod said Sansa quiety, as did Brienne.

The flaying is probably common knowledge - but that is the Bolton way. It's on their flag. Like I said earlier, Ned beheads and Ramsay flays. Sure, it may feel like King Richard has left and the Sheriff of Nottingham is now in control - but that is the current environment all over on the continent of Westeros. It's why the faith militant and stuff are rising up - war has left the country in turmoil and in the charge of more villainous people. I'd say common people in the North don't like it but also feel like there is nothing they can do about it.

Yes, if Cersie bothered to look, or had a master of whisperers that was doing their job, she could probably discover LFs duplicity. But show Cersie is like book Cersie at this stage, a bad, self deluded and inattentive ruler.

Roose does mention the other Northern Lords in the first episode, or second, or something. He thinks that marrying Ramsay to Sansa will help placate them. This is why Roose is being genuinely respectful to Sansa and her station, he wants to keep her onside as he views her as a kind of key to the North. Ramsay doesn't care - he'd flay the whole North if he could - so Roose has to try and keep Ramsay under control.

[Young Nan]

Littlefinger's plan? I think it includes talking like batman, teleporting to Kings Landing every now and then, and reading the lines D&D wrote. And something about a "Laddah".

He doesn't have a master plan! His plan is whatever nonsensical action D&D feel will advance the plot at any given moment, whether or not it's in any way logical or plausible.

C'mon, he just spent half a season fromping around half of the kingdom announcing that he's with Sansa. Not one person has emailed the red keep to tell Cersei yet? Meanwhile, Ramsey has a tortured man-pet that he brings everywhere, and hunts women all over the countryside, and Littlefinger hasn't heard a thing about this dude? Or, he has heard, but he's willing to risk the life of a huge asset? Each action he takes is dumber than the last.

[ummester]

Meanwhile, Ramsey has a tortured man-pet that he brings everywhere, and hunts women all over the countryside, and Littlefinger hasn't heard a thing about this dude? Or, he has heard, but he's willing to risk the life of a huge asset? Each action he takes is dumber than the last.

Roose will try not to let harm befall Sansa - I'm talking about direct physical harm, not emotional harm. If Ramsay tried to put Sansa down and Roose knew about it, I'm pretty sure Rooose would put Ramsay down. Roose likes his son but he wants to own the North more. I don't think Sansa's life is remotely at risk - her emotional wellbeing, sure, that's at risk - but if you haven't noticed, Westeros isn't the kind of place that caters to anyone's emotional well being.

Ramsay has hunted what, 3 or 4 women? Even if they knew it was Ramsay, who could people that knew the victims tell about it? Roose?

Poor dad of Ramsay victim - Excuse me Mr Roose, I believe your son hunted my daughter to death.

Roose - I believe that such a slanderous belief should be rewarded with your flaying, so I suggest you stop believeing it. Is there anything else?

Joffrey was more obviously cruel in Kings Landing and did anyone do anything about it? It took a couple of seasons for commoners to start throwing mud at him and they got over it with Margery was in the picture. Half the commoners think Ned is a traitor - they don't know the truth of things, they don't care or they know its safer to keep their mouths shut.

[dannyk65]

Roose will try not to let harm befall Sansa - I'm talking about direct physical harm, not emotional harm. If Ramsay tried to put Sansa down and Roose knew about it, I'm pretty sure Rooose would put Ramsay down. Roose likes his son but he wants to own the North more. I don't think Sansa's life is remotely at risk - her emotional wellbeing, sure, that's at risk - but if you haven't noticed, Westeros isn't the kind of place that caters to anyone's emotional well being.Ramsay has hunted what, 3 or 4 women? Even if they knew it was Ramsay, who could people that knew the victims tell about it? Roose?Poor dad of Ramsay victim - Excuse me Mr Roose, I believe your son hunted my daughter to death.Roose - I believe that such a slanderous belief should be rewarded with your flaying, so I suggest you stop believeing it. Is there anything else?Joffrey was more obviously cruel in Kings Landing and did anyone do anything about it? It took a couple of seasons for commoners to start throwing mud at him and they got over it with Margery was in the picture. Half the commoners think Ned is a traitor - they don't know the truth of things, they don't care or they know its safer to keep their mouths shut.

Lots of great points there....not sure it was mud they were throwin at Joffrey tho

[Hath4]

Roose will try not to let harm befall Sansa - I'm talking about direct physical harm, not emotional harm. If Ramsay tried to put Sansa down and Roose knew about it, I'm pretty sure Rooose would put Ramsay down. Roose likes his son but he wants to own the North more. I don't think Sansa's life is remotely at risk - her emotional wellbeing, sure, that's at risk - but if you haven't noticed, Westeros isn't the kind of place that caters to anyone's emotional well being.

Ramsay has hunted what, 3 or 4 women? Even if they knew it was Ramsay, who could people that knew the victims tell about it? Roose?

Poor dad of Ramsay victim - Excuse me Mr Roose, I believe your son hunted my daughter to death.

Roose - I believe that such a slanderous belief should be rewarded with your flaying, so I suggest you stop believeing it. Is there anything else?

Joffrey was more obviously cruel in Kings Landing and did anyone do anything about it? It took a couple of seasons for commoners to start throwing mud at him and they got over it with Margery was in the picture. Half the commoners think Ned is a traitor - they don't know the truth of things, they don't care or they know its safer to keep their mouths shut.

there are fates much worse than death. and psychical harm has already come to Sansa, rape is psychical harm.

[Young Nan]

Roose will try not to let harm befall Sansa - I'm talking about direct physical harm, not emotional harm. If Ramsay tried to put Sansa down and Roose knew about it, I'm pretty sure Rooose would put Ramsay down. Roose likes his son but he wants to own the North more. I don't think Sansa's life is remotely at risk - her emotional wellbeing, sure, that's at risk - but if you haven't noticed, Westeros isn't the kind of place that caters to anyone's emotional well being.

Ramsay has hunted what, 3 or 4 women? Even if they knew it was Ramsay, who could people that knew the victims tell about it? Roose?

Poor dad of Ramsay victim - Excuse me Mr Roose, I believe your son hunted my daughter to death.

Roose - I believe that such a slanderous belief should be rewarded with your flaying, so I suggest you stop believeing it. Is there anything else?

Joffrey was more obviously cruel in Kings Landing and did anyone do anything about it? It took a couple of seasons for commoners to start throwing mud at him and they got over it with Margery was in the picture. Half the commoners think Ned is a traitor - they don't know the truth of things, they don't care or they know its safer to keep their mouths sLittlefinge

I would argue that being raped and/or beaten causes both psychological and physical harm. You never know, he could also go too far and end up killing her. Sansa is the lynchpin of Littlefinger's northern ambitions. It would behoove him to keep her safe, which would include doing your research on whose care you're leaving her in, and not leaving her in the hands of a violent psychopath. Sure, maybe Roose would restrain him. Or maybe not. Why let your plans rest on the whims of a psycho? It's not smart, any way you slice it.

[Young Nan]

DP since my quote function isnt working:

I would argue that being raped and/or beaten causes both psychological and physical harm. You never know, he could also go too far and end up killing her. Sansa is the lynchpin of Littlefinger's northern ambitions. It would behoove him to keep her safe, which would include doing your research on whose care you're leaving her in, and not leaving her in the hands of a violent psychopath. Sure, maybe Roose would restrain him. Or maybe not. Why let your plans rest on the whims of a psycho? It's not smart, any way you slice it.

[Lord Damian]

DP since my quote function isnt working:

I would argue that being raped and/or beaten causes both psychological and physical harm. You never know, he could also go too far and end up killing her. Sansa is the lynchpin of Littlefinger's northern ambitions. It would behoove him to keep her safe, which would include doing your research on whose care you're leaving her in, and not leaving her in the hands of a violent psychopath. Sure, maybe Roose would restrain him. Or maybe not. Why let your plans rest on the whims of a psycho? It's not smart, any way you slice it.

yeah, the showritters have been very adamant that LF knows nothing of Ramsay otherwise he would not have put Sansa there. Sansa was surprised too until right before the bedding and she realized what a mistake this whole adventure was. It is LF's fault, she trusted him, she had saved him. There must be repercussions in regards to LF/Sansa relationship because of this.

[ummester]

there are fates much worse than death. and psychical harm has already come to Sansa, rape is psychical harm.

I'm not saying it isn't - but it is not the kind of thing Roose would consider harm, or harmful, to his relationship with the North.

If Sansa came to Roose and went - I don't like the way Ramsay treats me in the bedroom, Roose would probably go, that's your problem, sort it out yourself. If she went - Ramsay has threatened to kill me and I'm afraid he will do it, Roose would put a stop to that.

[ServantOnIce]

yeah, the showritters have been very adamant that LF knows nothing of Ramsay otherwise he would not have put Sansa there. Sansa was surprised too until right before the bedding and she realized what a mistake this whole adventure was. It is LF's fault, she trusted him, she had saved him. There must be repercussions in regards to LF/Sansa relationship because of this.

That's what so not logical about all this foolishness with Lord Baelish. He knows that Roose is a monster but he thinks Ramsay is some naive boy? He can't be that daft, he can't be he manipulated the Stark-Lannister war, he knew Ros was snitching to Varys, but he doesn't know that Ramsay is a notorious monster?

Cogman, Weiss and Benioff have written him a genius at times and a complete idiot at others. Talking to Sansa in King's Landing where he knew he could never be seen with her . .. I don't get this at all . not burning Ser Dontos' boat . .. idiocy . . ..

[Lord Damian]

That's what so not logical about all this foolishness with Lord Baelish. He knows that Roose is a monster but he thinks Ramsay is some naive boy? He can't be that daft, he can't be he manipulated the Stark-Lannister war, he knew Ros was snitching to Varys, but he doesn't know that Ramsay is a notorious monster?

Cogman, Weiss and Benioff have written him a genius at times and a complete idiot at others. Talking to Sansa in King's Landing where he knew he could never be seen with her . .. I don't get this at all . not burning Ser Dontos' boat . .. idiocy . . ..

Look, I agree. I am trying to speculate if they are or have is a more appropriate word to try and rectify this nonesensical gamble by Littlefinger. However, I will have to revert to what I think is how and why. they planned for Sansa to take Jeyne Poole's place for 4 years. that was a benchmark they set but the problem is, the connecting storyline to make that happen is not connected. very poor writting in between. The actors and actesses themselves usually have a pretty good feeling where the're characters are going and they were all blown away with this storyline. It made no sense to any of them but they are paid to read lines.

[ummester]

Ramsay is only a notorious monster to us, because we have seen what he does with his private time.

It's exactly like watching Dexter, we the viewers knew he killed people - but the whole Police Department he worked for hadn't worked it out. Does it make sense? Depends on whether you suspend your disbelief for it, or not.

How many people are privy to what Ramsay did to Theon, his ex girlfriend hunting, or that he made Reek watch his first night with Sansa? I'd say Reek is the only person who has a full understanding of what Ramsay gets up to, even Myranda's understanding is incomplete.

Sansa is going to have to learn to forgive Reek this season, I'll guarantee it. She needs to get onside with her fellow victim, as there is strength in numbers.

[Misnthropia]

there are fates much worse than death. and psychical harm has already come to Sansa, rape is psychical harm.

At the same time. Roose, much like Tywin to Tyrion, would want Ramsay to consummate the marriage and put a child in her as quickly as possible. If that means a little encouragement from Ramsay, Roose will look the other way fairly easily. As has been said by many people, including myself. What may appear to be rape in this day and age, that scene would not be a rarity for that time.

What Roose will look unfavorably at is Ramsay actually beating her.

[Lord Damian]

At the same time. Roose, much like Tywin to Tyrion, would want Ramsay to consummate the marriage and put a child in her as quickly as possible. If that means a little encouragement from Ramsay, Roose will look the other way fairly easily. As has been said by many people, including myself. What may appear to be rape in this day and age, that scene would not be a rarity for that time.

What Roose will look unfavorably at is Ramsay actually beating her.

Ramsay will not beat her but bedding her when and where he pleases as well as his psych games will come aplenty.

[Young Nan]

yeah, the showritters have been very adamant that LF knows nothing of Ramsay otherwise he would not have put Sansa there. Sansa was surprised too until right before the bedding and she realized what a mistake this whole adventure was. It is LF's fault, she trusted him, she had saved him. There must be repercussions in regards to LF/Sansa relationship because of this.

See, so then it means Littlefinger failed to do his homework, and put a valuable person into harms way because of it. Also someone else pointed out that littlefinger seems an idiot at times and a genius at others. The show runners are inconsistent to say the least about how they portray him. Which is exactly why I say that he really has no master plan in the show besides being a plot device. They do a really bad job with the "chessmaster" trope when it comes to Littlefinger.

[ummester]

Again, why is Sansa in harms way?

She didn't seem comfortable with her bedding but she also seemed to take it with as much dignity as she could. I think Sansa is less concerned about her circumstances than her fans are - Sophie Turner definitely is :D half of the anguish on Theon's face, I thought, was because he felt powerless to avert his eyes - that he had to watch, because Ramsay ordered him to, against his own wishes. It very much seems to be setting up a situation where Sansa has to be the better person and forgive Theon, to me.

Of course, the whole thing probably will make Sansa hate LF - but that is entirely the point, isn't it? The monster Sansa has to beat is LF, not Ramsay. Ramsay is a monster for either Theon or Jon to beat.

[Young Nan]

Again, why is Sansa in harms way?

She didn't seem comfortable with her bedding but she also seemed to take it with as much dignity as she could. I think Sansa is less concerned about her circumstances than her fans are - Sophie Turner definitely is :D

Of course, the whole thing probably will make Sansa hate LF - but that is entirely the point, isn't it? The monster Sansa has to beat is LF, not Ramsay. Ramsay is a monster for either Theon or Jon to beat.

She's in harms way because she's married to a violent psychopath who likes rough sex. He's already raped her on day one of their marriage. Physical and sexual abuse virtually always escalates. You seem to believe 100% that Roose is going to shield her from the worst of it, but I am not so sure, a coverup would be easy.

In any case, its a big risk that Little finger is taking. He's gone through a lot of effort to get Sansa in his clutches, including risking his relationship with the Lannisters, so why would he take such a risk? It's not logical.

[Lord Damian]

See, so then it means Littlefinger failed to do his homework, and put a valuable person into harms way because of it. Also someone else pointed out that littlefinger seems an idiot at times and a genius at others. The show runners are inconsistent to say the least about how they portray him. Which is exactly why I say that he really has no master plan in the show besides being a plot device. They do a really bad job with the "chessmaster" trope when it comes to Littlefinger.

I agree, if we just look at the character, it is an unforgiveable mistake for Littlefinger to risk Sansa like he did, then again, did he send the messenger to Winterfell from the Vale AHEAD of himself, knowing that Roose would open it, just to give himself an excuse to leave the North as he did not bring a Vale army with him when he dropped off Sansa but only 10 knights and only 6-7 after Brienne killed the others? I do not think he could have brought Sansa with a Vale army, Moat Callin is too defenseable from the North. He had to get Bolton to think he has all the cards so he will let his guard down. I think that will be Littlefinger's logic but the rape of Sansa by Ramsay will be his undoing with Sansa or it should be.