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rayarts

[BOOK and SHOW SPOILERS] So what is Littlefinger's game now?

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She's in harms way because she's married to a violent psychopath who likes rough sex. He's already raped her on day one of their marriage. Physical and sexual abuse virtually always escalates. You seem to believe 100% that Roose is going to shield her from the worst of it, but I am not so sure, a coverup would be easy.

In any case, its a big risk that Little finger is taking. He's gone through a lot of effort to get Sansa in his clutches, including risking his relationship with the Lannisters, so why would he take such a risk? It's not logical.

I think that Roose will 100% try and shield her from physical harm - it doesn't mean he will succeed. I think LF has this same expectation from Roose, that Sansa would be a more precious commodity to Roose than just about any other person in Westeros.

LFs actions are logical, based on what he thinks, such as:

1) Sansa trusts him

2) Roose will protect Sansa

3) If Stannis wins, Stannis will protect Sansa

Sansa is more in harms way than she was in the Vale - but there is a bigger potential reward by positioning her in Winterfell. No risk, no reward.

The reward, now that LF has put his queen in play, is getting some-one he thinks he can trust on the inside with 2 of the 3 biggest forces left in Westeros, Stannis or Bolton/Frey combo.

The other big force is the Lannister/Tyrell combo, which LF will sacrifice his queen for, if need be.

It's not illogical, it's just using Sansa like a chess piece, with a callous disregard for her humanity - but that's LF.

Of course, it will probably back fire and Sansa will turn on LF - but it doesn't mean he hasn't made logical moves that were just callous to the possibility that hurting Sansa could change her. LF has been consistently power hungry, manipulative, logical and inhumane since the show started - he hasn't changed.

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When you put it that way, I see your point, at least as it applies to his Sansa-related plot. I agree that this is likely going to be the catalyst for her turning on LF.

What I found to be the most silly about the whole thing was how he paraded around the vale, riverlands, and north with Sansa, and this somehow didn't get back to Cersei. Qyburn really sucks at being master of whispers, if Varys had found out he would have teleported a raven straight to Cersei with the news. Its things like that which I find careless.

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When you put it that way, I see your point, at least as it applies to his Sansa-related plot. I agree that this is likely going to be the catalyst for her turning on LF.

What I found to be the most silly about the whole thing was how he paraded around the vale, riverlands, and north with Sansa, and this somehow didn't get back to Cersei. Qyburn really sucks at being master of whispers, if Varys had found out he would have teleported a raven straight to Cersei with the news. Its things like that which I find careless.

Qyburn is more interested in playing Frakenstien and Cersie is more interested in surrounding herself only with people that suck up to her and bitching with the Tyrells - because her motherhood has been offended by Margery.

You've never experienced those shallow, self deluded senior exec types that surround themselves with 'yes' men? That is how Cerise rules. Qyburn is a yes man that say's yes purely to be left alone to play with his corpses.

Kevan said it outright in the first episode - he was not going to hang around while Cerise surrounded herself with sycophants.

To get your head around how LF works - you have to stop factoring in how people might feel about what he does. He doesn't factor it in. People are chess pieces, prostitutes, racehorses, investments - they are never people, they are never his equal and they are never something he cares about beyond what they are worth to his game.

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To get your head around how LF works - you have to stop factoring in how people might feel about what he does. He doesn't factor it in. People are chess pieces, prostitutes, racehorses, investments - they are never people, they are never his equal and they are never something he cares about.

Well said. Littlefinger is only out for himself.

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Qyburn is more interested in playing Frakenstien and Cersie is more interested in surrounding herself only with people that suck up to her and bitching with the Tyrells - because her motherhood has been offended by Margery.You've never experienced those shallow, self deluded senior exec types that surround themselves with 'yes' men? That is how Cerise rules. Qyburn is a yes man that say's yes purely to be left alone to play with his corpses.Kevan said it outright in the first episode - he was not going to hang around while Cerise surrounded herself with sycophants.To get your head around how LF works - you have to stop factoring in how people might feel about what he does. He doesn't factor it in. People are chess pieces, prostitutes, racehorses, investments - they are never people, they are never his equal and they are never something he cares about beyond what they are worth to his game.

Well said. Next time could u please include cock merchants with the 'chess pieces, prostitutes, racehorses, investments' group?

Cheers

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Well said. Next time could u please include cock merchants with the 'chess pieces, prostitutes, racehorses, investments' group?

Cheers

Sorry, of course, the cock merchants are very important to the economy of Essos, which does indirectly effect the power struggles in Westeros :D

Thinking about it, Tyrion's cock currently being out of action in Westeros probably has quite dramatic effects on the brothel economy in Westeros - which would explain LFs actions becoming more desperate, he is loosing his slow takeover of all Lannister gold :D

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Qyburn really sucks at being master of whispers, if Varys had found out he would have teleported a raven straight to Cersei with the news. Its things like that which I find careless.

Or Qyburn just works for LF.

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LF isn't one to risk everything for revenge alone (he can't have forgotten how Cersei had the KG sieze him and almost order his death to prove what power is) but he's proven that his only true ally is himself, everyone else is going to be crossed out when they are no longer useful to him. I'm still not sure whether Sansa is in his endgame plan to take as his wife or simply use her as a puppet in the North.

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Littlefinger is making sure he comes out on top no matter what happens (so he thinks) because if Sansa survives, he feels that she is his puppet and will do what he wants. If she dies, he can wipe out the other forces and present her head to Cersei and be rewarded.


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Rewarded with what?



The Boltons, a thousands-year-old northern family, need to marry a Stark in an attempt to legitimize themselves, but Petyr Baelish can hope to be named warden of the North and not be separated from his head as soon as he gets past Moat Cailin?


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Rewarded with what?

The Boltons, a thousands-year-old northern family, need to marry a Stark in an attempt to legitimize themselves, but Petyr Baelish can hope to be named warden of the North and not be separated from his head as soon as he gets past Moat Cailin?

Warden of the North and still be in good graces with the crown, atleast for the time being. If he joined with Stannis, he would be considered and enemy of the crown. He sold out the Boltons, so he cannot join forces with them, thus he would be and enemy of the crown there as well. Littlefinger is trying to make sure he gains out of this no matter what happens. I know not even this makes sense but blame the show writters, we are just trying to figure out their flawed logic behind the writting.

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Again, we do have to come back to the fact that LF does not act with regard to other people... which is good because people generally do what he tells them.



Won't the Lords of the Vale think it odd that Sansa left in LF's company and the next time they see the Lord Protector he's asking them to help rescue Sansa?



And wouldn't a man like Roose suspect treachery? Especially since LF leaves so quickly and openly discusses that he's meeting with the Queen.


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Again, we do have to come back to the fact that LF does not act with regard to other people... which is good because people generally do what he tells them.

Won't the Lords of the Vale think it odd that Sansa left in LF's company and the next time they see the Lord Protector he's asking them to help rescue Sansa?

And wouldn't a man like Roose suspect treachery? Especially since LF leaves so quickly and openly discusses that he's meeting with the Queen.

Yes, but this is HBO, shock, not logic is what the viewers want.

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Whoever the victor is has discounted all the Willdings.



I don't see the Vale stirred by a wimpy king whose agent is cahoots with government. If government topples where is their loyalty? Protecting thier own? Seizing from the Dornish, Tyrells, Lannisters, Sparrows or attacking the Kng's brother who had more history with the Vale of Arryn. If the Boltons win nothing lost that wasn't the same, so what interest is in the North, a newer threat to their borders the best defense in the land that they haven't moved from?



If Stannis wins Littlefinger is treacherous, unless he gifts the Vale, why would he do that?


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On the subject of Roose Bolton and how he relates to LF's plan, wouldn't he have a vested interest in making sure that LF's involvement is made public? It would prevent LF from doing... exactly what he did.



Sansa's marriage to Ramsay is an overture to an alliance between the Vale and the North (that's how LF sells it and how Roose interprets it) but Sansa herself is not a guarantee of anything and can't be seen as a hostage, because neither party wants to see her dead. (Maybe littlefinger does, but Roose doesn't know that.) So without any assurances and only LF's word that there will be peace between them, why isn't Roose extremely suspicious of this offer? Since by marrying Sansa to Ramsay he is effectively breaking with the throne (this wasn't meant to be a secret wedding was it?) he has a vested interest in keeping the Vale onside however he can.



Telling everyone about LF's arranging the match would burn bridges with KL, actually making LF a surer ally... if only because it limits his options. Wait, I've answered my own question - it didn't happen because it limits LF's options and that cannot be allowed by anyone.


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On the subject of Roose Bolton and how he relates to LF's plan, wouldn't he have a vested interest in making sure that LF's involvement is made public? It would prevent LF from doing... exactly what he did.

Sansa's marriage to Ramsay is an overture to an alliance between the Vale and the North (that's how LF sells it and how Roose interprets it) but Sansa herself is not a guarantee of anything and can't be seen as a hostage, because neither party wants to see her dead. (Maybe littlefinger does, but Roose doesn't know that.) So without any assurances and only LF's word that there will be peace between them, why isn't Roose extremely suspicious of this offer? Since by marrying Sansa to Ramsay he is effectively breaking with the throne (this wasn't meant to be a secret wedding was it?) he has a vested interest in keeping the Vale onside however he can.

Telling everyone about LF's arranging the match would burn bridges with KL, actually making LF a surer ally... if only because it limits his options. Wait, I've answered my own question - it didn't happen because it limits LF's options and that cannot be allowed by anyone.

The Vale won't aid the Boltons they haven't yet. I supposed the wall was like 5 episodes away and the Vale is like only half a days march.

Littlefinger commands them to grab the North once the war is done after he teleports back from kingslanding the next episode, or does he send a raven, but why would they charge?

Sansa had left to marry her families killers, didn't they think about that or was it just some Northman, and these guys are all like idiots, belief Littlefingers hypnotism watch the finger?

Makes 0 sense how he would get them to do anything.

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The Vale won't aid the Boltons they haven't yet. I supposed the wall was like 5 episodes away and the Vale is like only half a days march.

Littlefinger commands them to grab the North once the war is done after he teleports back from kingslanding the next episode, or does he send a raven, but why would they charge?

Sansa had left to marry her families killers, didn't they think about that or was it just some Northman, and these guys are all like idiots, belief Littlefingers hypnotism watch the finger?

Makes 0 sense how he would get them to do anything.

I was under the assumption that this is what Roose thought. So I still don't quite understand why he has so far behaved as he has. But you make a good point; the Lords of the Vale may well want to rescue Sansa, but since LF got her into danger I don't see how that translates into power for him other than at Cersei's say so - which is demonstrably something everyone in the North will ignore.

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LF could rally the Vale with a different tact entirely. Tell them that they are riding to war to aid Stannis, the true king; talk about how weak Robin is and that Tommen is that weak too and a strong king like Stannis is needed to get them to through the winter. And don't talk about Sansa at all, just say that's she safe.



As for Roose, its harder to justify his trust in LF. Although that fits right into the books, everyone trusts LF. Best I can think, Roose's hold on the North is supposed to be more tenuous than the show has been able to show, and he needs that Stark legitimacy badly enough that he's willing to risk LF potentially betraying him. Although, that would work better if there were at least a few Northern lords in show to represent that problem.


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