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rayarts

[BOOK and SHOW SPOILERS] So what is Littlefinger's game now?

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I was under the assumption that this is what Roose thought. So I still don't quite understand why he has so far behaved as he has. But you make a good point; the Lords of the Vale may well want to rescue Sansa, but since LF got her into danger I don't see how that translates into power for him other than at Cersei's say so - which is demonstrably something everyone in the North will ignore.

The logistics have been quite out to lunch, Moat Calin for one. That aside LF plan was to kill the weakling. Sansa wasn't part of the eqaution because if the Boltons win, the Vale would be at war against her. A rescue you say from her treasonous marriage. However the only possible outcome for Littlefinger to become Warden of the North? If Stannis wins that puts LF in a postion which is ignoring history, that he doesn't want to be in considering it is Stannis. That is if government is stiill in power, to command the Vale

So what is left, he can command them south? Gain the capital from Sparrows ignoring the North? While the Tyrells, Dornish and Lannisters battle it out

Watch his finger, it is a F word

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LF could rally the Vale with a different tact entirely. Tell them that they are riding to war to aid Stannis, the true king; talk about how weak Robin is and that Tommen is that weak too and a strong king like Stannis is needed to get them to through the winter. And don't talk about Sansa at all, just say that's she safe.

As for Roose, its harder to justify his trust in LF. Although that fits right into the books, everyone trusts LF. Best I can think, Roose's hold on the North is supposed to be more tenuous than the show has been able to show, and he needs that Stark legitimacy badly enough that he's willing to risk LF potentially betraying him. Although, that would work better if there were at least a few Northern lords in show to represent that problem.

I don't see how that translates to LF having any power in the North - short of changing Stannis' character entirely, he at best exiles LF back to his home on the fingers and at worst takes off his head. And it doesn't matter if LF keeps quiet about Sansa - the three most prominent Lords of the Vale know she was last in his custody and are going to be extremely suspicious as to why they find her in Winterfell married to Ramsay Bolton.

Sneaky LF from the books shouldn't work on showRoose though - he's been exposed to LF holding Sansa, becoming Lord Protector of the Vale and most importantly is actively plotting against the throne with him. So Littlfinger's "everybody's harmless friend" ruse shouldn't work on him. It's unreasonable for Roose to think that LF should be loyal to him without assurances. And the best way to get that assurance is to give LF no option for treachery by revealing his complicity in Roose's own break with Cersei.

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I don't see how that translates to LF having any power in the North - short of changing Stannis' character entirely, he at best exiles LF back to his home on the fingers and at worst takes off his head. And it doesn't matter if LF keeps quiet about Sansa - the three most prominent Lords of the Vale know she was last in his custody and are going to be extremely suspicious as to why they find her in Winterfell married to Ramsay Bolton.

Sneaky LF from the books shouldn't work on showRoose though - he's been exposed to LF holding Sansa, becoming Lord Protector of the Vale and most importantly is actively plotting against the throne with him. So Littlfinger's "everybody's harmless friend" ruse shouldn't work on him. It's unreasonable for Roose to think that LF should be loyal to him without assurances. And the best way to get that assurance is to give LF no option for treachery by revealing his complicity in Roose's own break with Cersei.

He is banking that the Boltons win against Stannis. Then he can rally the Vale against the Bolton's to become Warden. They might have more cause after Sansa is gone, although they had previously dropped her, treason doesn't have that ring anymore.

If Stannis wins, I just don't see how the Vale would rally to fight Stannis. Apart from on current government orders which are about to change fast.

Roose taking Sansa was of necessity although I would have closed Calin after that. Roose is all like gimme men to fight Stannis already, NOOO it was a thank you very much LF I belief in hypnotism.

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I don't see how that translates to LF having any power in the North - short of changing Stannis' character entirely, he at best exiles LF back to his home on the fingers and at worst takes off his head. And it doesn't matter if LF keeps quiet about Sansa - the three most prominent Lords of the Vale know she was last in his custody and are going to be extremely suspicious as to why they find her in Winterfell married to Ramsay Bolton.

Sneaky LF from the books shouldn't work on showRoose though - he's been exposed to LF holding Sansa, becoming Lord Protector of the Vale and most importantly is actively plotting against the throne with him. So Littlfinger's "everybody's harmless friend" ruse shouldn't work on him. It's unreasonable for Roose to think that LF should be loyal to him without assurances. And the best way to get that assurance is to give LF no option for treachery by revealing his complicity in Roose's own break with Cersei.

I agree that LF actually helping Stannis seems like a stretch. The only possibilities I can think of are either:

1) LF thinks Sansa will still support him and that Sannis will make her the Wardness of the North. LF then marries Sansa. And he only sent Sansa to the Boltons in the first place so that he'd be in a position to betray them (they let his army past Moat Calian because he's there to help).

2) LF has another trick up his sleeve, he knows something about AA/PWOP/War for the Dawn/R'hollor/the Others/etc. So far, in both the books and the show, he's never shown any indication that he knows anything about the various magical parts of the world, so there's absolutely no evidence for this. But it sure would be a curveball if he actually did.

Somewhat related: I remember reading crackpot theories on the book forums 5 or 6 years ago arguing that maybe LF was actually an agent of the Others, a quisling sent to sow chaos. I doubt it, but that sure would be fun.

I agree about show Roose, I don't think he got enough assurances that LF won't betray him. Of course, perhaps next episode a raven does come from Roose to Cersei saying that LF betrayed her, but then the Faith arrests her before she can arrest LF/put out a warrant for him. I wouldn't be confident in that though. I think we're supposed to just think that Roose is more desperate than he appears and needed to talk a gamble on LF. He wouldn't be the first warden of the north that gambled on LF and lost (its kind of a cool parable actually, albeit one that doesn't totally make sense, it doesn't matter if you're honorable or treacherous, LF will get you in the end).

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How does it make any sense to anyone that the lords of the Vale, having sat in their mountains while all of Westeros burned during the War of Five Kings (or four kings? Greyjoy MIA?), will suddenly go marching anywhere to do LF's bidding?


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How does it make any sense to anyone that the lords of the Vale, having sat in their mountains while all of Westeros burned during the War of Five Kings (or four kings? Greyjoy MIA?), will suddenly go marching anywhere to do LF's bidding?

To save Sansa Stark but then again, Royce knows he had her so this will be an interesting thing to see how this is explained. If they even try and explain it at all.

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Stannis cannot forget Littlefinger whom didn't rally cutting the Boltons in half giving him Sansa. He would have to attack him if he wins, why would the Vale do that on Littlefingers behest it would have to be by royal decree which has been swallowed by the Sparrows, as other wars threaten. They quite simply wouldn't, they would probably rally for Stannis if he wins the North, although they haven't yet.



If government held, the Vale would possibly have wanted alliance status again? Although they haven't needed it yet.



Can he rally them South ignoring the North?



His plan is a finger


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Stannis cannot forget Littlefinger whom didn't rally cutting the Boltons in half giving him Sansa. He would have to attack him if he wins, why would the Vale do that on Littlefingers behest it would have to be by royal decree which has been swallowed by the Sparrows, as other wars threaten. They quite simply wouldn't, they would probably rally for Stannis if he wins the North, although they haven't yet.

If government held, the Vale would possibly have wanted alliance satus again? Although they haven't needed it yet.

Can he rally them South ignoring the North?

His plan is a finger

The entire plot of season 5 is a finger to the intelligence of the viewers

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I agree that LF actually helping Stannis seems like a stretch. The only possibilities I can think of are either:

1) LF thinks Sansa will still support him and that Sannis will make her the Wardness of the North. LF then marries Sansa. And he only sent Sansa to the Boltons in the first place so that he'd be in a position to betray them (they let his army past Moat Calian because he's there to help).

2) LF has another trick up his sleeve, he knows something about AA/PWOP/War for the Dawn/R'hollor/the Others/etc. So far, in both the books and the show, he's never shown any indication that he knows anything about the various magical parts of the world, so there's absolutely no evidence for this. But it sure would be a curveball if he actually did.

Somewhat related: I remember reading crackpot theories on the book forums 5 or 6 years ago arguing that maybe LF was actually an agent of the Others, a quisling sent to sow chaos. I doubt it, but that sure would be fun.

I agree about show Roose, I don't think he got enough assurances that LF won't betray him. Of course, perhaps next episode a raven does come from Roose to Cersei saying that LF betrayed her, but then the Faith arrests her before she can arrest LF/put out a warrant for him. I wouldn't be confident in that though. I think we're supposed to just think that Roose is more desperate than he appears and needed to talk a gamble on LF. He wouldn't be the first warden of the north that gambled on LF and lost (its kind of a cool parable actually, albeit one that doesn't totally make sense, it doesn't matter if you're honorable or treacherous, LF will get you in the end).

1) Maybe, but all that effectively does is place LF as Warden of the North. Stannis will still want nothing to do with him, his duplicity and greed is exposed to the Lords of the Vale and all he gains is the nebulous loyalty of the North through his wife; that can't possibly be his "end game".

2)Entirely possible. And if nothing else, actually quite necessary to make sense of this plan.

The thing about Roose is that he too is a treacherous little shit. So I don't buy that he would simply put his trust in anyone when he has cause to distrust what they say. Exposing littlefinger's role in the marriage would burn him with Cersei, but potentially also ruin LF's relationship with the Vale lords. So whether he uses it or not, he can effectively force LF out of power should he betray Roose with Cersei or the Vale.

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The only way Littlefinger can become Warden of the North and keep it is if he wipes out Stannis, the Boltons and marries Sansa and hope the Vale lords do not think of this at all as being "fishy". Also, It might help LF if the Lords Declarant, Royce, Waynewood and Cobray met an unfortunate end.


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The only way Littlefinger can become Warden of the North and keep it is if he wipes out Stannis, the Boltons and marries Sansa and hope the Vale lords do not think of this at all as being "fishy". Also, It might help LF if the Lords Declarant, Royce, Waynewood and Cobray met an unfortunate end.

But that's a hell of a lot of "ifs" for a man who's supposed to be a master political schemer.

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He'd need to wipe out every other northern house as well. The Mormonts told Stannis to fuck off, Lord Cerwyn had to be flayed into submission to Bolton rule, imagine how well they'd receive someone who was in every way beneath them regarding their claim to ruling the North.

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But that's a hell of a lot of "ifs" for a man who's supposed to be a master political schemer.

LF has plot armor, until he does'nt.

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Unless he dies before then? Always a possibly seen as though Kevan has been making no plays. Kevan at this point is like who, so what.



I don't think he could make Stannis do anything without promising the Vale which is only his because of government. Maybe the Vale have unquestioning loyality, that would be really funny



Sansa won't forgive either if by having to escape the Boltons



Maybe he can rally the Vale againt the Boltons if they win, the only real solution to those who have been following, saying they killed Sansa and Stannis, quick attack dem.


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Unless he dies before then? Always a possibly seen as though Kevan has been making no plays

I don't think he could make Stannis do anything without promising the Vale which is only his because of government. Maybe the Vale have unquestioning loyality, that would be really funny

Sansa won't forgive either if by having to escape the Boltons

Maybe he can rally the Vale againt the Boltons if they win, the only real solution to those who have been following, saying they killed Sansa and Stannis, quick attack dem.

This will be his undoing. The show has been very clear through interviews that LF does not know about Ramsay and that will mean he will pay for it dearly in regards to his relationship with Sansa. Sansa was betrayed by LF. She made the decisions that she did based on bad info she got from LF. I do not think the show will let him get away with this from Sansa's point of view.

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I don't follow gossip mags. I couldn't care less what they say I not paying them more then for their acted show time.



It would make pefect sense putting 3 together. That because Kevan is virtually unheard of, Littlefinger is that replacement. This plan of his is absurd. There is only one solution that would be Stannis defeat, that leaves the North where? I wanted to see Stannis try out his sword first at least. Maybe LF can go South, although there is no interest there for them, unless to crown and that is contested by another maelstrom



Although who knows what they will do? We had the sparrow warning and Littlefinger was like I am the master of entertainment. Hmm


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Well, I am holding out hope that the final episode is where Littlfinger has Sansa and reveals truth that it is all about him and her ruling North, Vale, Riverlands and she stabbs his ass and kills him. It has to be her and in Winterfell. That would make up for a lot and you know, with the frozen apocolypse coming, people are gonna die anyway, may as well start offing them.


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This will be his undoing. The show has been very clear through interviews that LF does not know about Ramsay and that will mean he will pay for it dearly in regards to his relationship with Sansa. Sansa was betrayed by LF. She made the decisions that she did based on bad info she got from LF. I do not think the show will let him get away with this from Sansa's point of view.

Am I'm still not buying that. Really show, the one guy who the supposed master schemer (well we're supposed to think that he is, even if his "plan" seems to make little sense), is Ramsay freaking Bolton? Yeah no writers, no.

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