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rayarts

[BOOK and SHOW SPOILERS] So what is Littlefinger's game now?

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Why *did* he get summoned in the first place? That scene confused me so much. Cersei asks him if the lords of the Vale will support Tommen and then asks him if that was all he had to discuss with her. I was so perplexed and thought "uhhh..Cersei, you made him come all the way to the city. Is that all you had to discuss with him?"

The cynic in me sees it as nothing more than an opportunity for LF to not be present at Winterfell for the wedding.

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Why *did* he get summoned in the first place? That scene confused me so much. Cersei asks him if the lords of the Vale will support Tommen and then asks him if that was all he had to discuss with her. I was so perplexed and thought "uhhh..Cersei, you made him come all the way to the city. Is that all you had to discuss with him?"

It only takes a few seconds to teleport to King's Landing so why not talk in person?

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Why *did* he get summoned in the first place? That scene confused me so much. Cersei asks him if the lords of the Vale will support Tommen and then asks him if that was all he had to discuss with her. I was so perplexed and thought "uhhh..Cersei, you made him come all the way to the city. Is that all you had to discuss with him?"

It's rather confusing in the show but I think he wasn't necessarily summoned. All we know is she wanted him to understand that whatever was in her letter must be addressed immediately. We then see a reply from him on Cersei's desk later. So we don't know that he was definitely summoned or if he decided to take the opportunity and inform her of the Boltons' betrayal.

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Oh you think its a coincidence GRRM has sent her to Bravos? He knows that if he lets Arya back in the 7Ks he is going to run out of characters in a week.

Best leave her where she is for now practicing her "hobby" till the white walkers arrive.

Oh I know. I was being facetious about Arya, since she's a badass compared to her sister.

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Did Cersei really summon Littlefinger? I can't quite remember but I do remember her saying something about urgency. Could be that she wanted a reply about shit on the Tyrells which Littlefinger probably gave in the form of his info on Loras and Olyvar (his letter to her).

Now I think Littlefinger only used his correspondence with Cersei as an excuse to get to King's Landing, partly to tell Cersei about his supposed alliance with the Crown, and partly to help the Tyrells put Cersei down. Chaos indeed.

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It only takes a few seconds to teleport to King's Landing so why not talk in person?

makes me think he's got a dragon shaped dirigible loaded with wildfire.

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I think Littlefinger's overall game has always been to sit on the Throne or die trying.

I kind of agree, but I think it doesn't quite cover his motivation: Everybody else is playing the game of thrones to win the throne; Littlefinger is playing the game of thrones to win the game.

He doesn't really want the throne in any sense other than its the highest rank in the land, and as such it represents "winning the game". His life goal is now to rise to the top one step at a time, pretty much for no other reason than "because it is there". If he ever did get the throne he would be plotting to invade Essos within minutes.

I think it's a mistake to think that the iron throne is his only goal though - every time he gets a promotion that is "winning a game". Why did he want to be master of coin, why did he want the Vale, why does he want to be warden of the north? Even if they did not help at all to winning the throne, they are victories in their own right.

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I kind of agree, but I think it doesn't quite cover his motivation: Everybody else is playing the game of thrones to win the throne; Littlefinger is playing the game of thrones to win the game.

He doesn't really want the throne in any sense other than its the highest rank in the land, and as such it represents "winning the game". His life goal is now to rise to the top one step at a time, pretty much for no other reason than "because it is there". If he ever did get the throne he would be plotting to invade Essos within minutes.

I think it's a mistake to think that the iron throne is his only goal though - every time he gets a promotion that is "winning a game". Why did he want to be master of coin, why did he want the Vale, why does he want to be warden of the north? Even if they did not help at all to winning the throne, they are victories in their own right.

This is one of the best explanations of LF's motives I have read. It explains a lot!

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Some things in this thread that have been raised as questions, problems with LFs plan.

Cerise never knew Sansa was in the Vale because the Vale Lords promised not to tell anyone who she really was and her hair was a different colour.

LF and Sansa got through Moat Calin easily because Roose knew they were coming and sent word to let them pass. At this stage we can think that no-one knew Sansa was Sansa outside of LF, his personal guard, Brienne, Pod and Roose.

LF has clearly stated that he has only ever loved one woman - Cat. He is not lying here. Cat does not include Sansa. I do not believe LF has any particular appreciation for Sansa beyond knowing she is an important piece in his game - to him all people are prostitutes and the world is a brothel. Sansa is just a prostitute that he has risked a lot to acquire and from which he expects the highest returns.

Why does LF kiss Sansa? To let Sansa think that she has some control over him - he is playing Sansa by letting her think she has the ability to play him, which she doesn't because Sansa is not Cat. LF lost the ability to love when Brandon cut him open and embarrassed him in front of Cat, at which point in time the chip on his shoulder became psychotic and chaotic. He is just tricking Sansa into thinking that she matters enough to be 'partners' with him, when she doesn't at all.

LF could genuinely not have heard about Ramsay's less than savoury habits because Roose tried to keep a lid on them. How many people beyond Roose, Ramsay, Myranda and now Sansa know Reek is Theon? How many people beyond Reek, Ramsay, Myranda and now Sansa know Ramsay likes hunting girls that bore him? Besides, it may not be the kind of thing LF cared about, or even enquired about. LF would have been more interested in was that Ramsay's title was legitimate, to make sure he is including another power player in his web.

I think it is a mistake to think with any kind of sympathy for any characters when trying to work out LFs plan - he has none. I think it is also a mistake to think that his plan is like a grand master plan that he is expecting to play out a certain way - it isn't. What LF is doing is hedging his bets and starting little fires everywhere at the same time.

Imagine there is a horse race and you put $100 down on each horse but also put a bomb in each horse. Halfway through the race, you have the ability to put $1000 on a horse of your choosing, say number 8, that is leading. 3/4s of the way through the race you can see number 12 is overtaking number 8 but you have no money left, so you blow up number 12, hoping to still collect on number 8. That's the kind of game he is playing, I think.

Also, agree with setoverset's post re LFs goal, it's more than the IT - it shifts. He wants more, he wants it all - and if he had it all, he would destroy it all to ensure no-one could ever have any of it again. He just wants to win, or see everyone else lose.

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I kind of agree, but I think it doesn't quite cover his motivation: Everybody else is playing the game of thrones to win the throne; Littlefinger is playing the game of thrones to win the game.

Top post. I totally agree.

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I found the speed with which Cersei believed the Bolton's had betrayed her was a little problematic. It might just be a case of narrative economy, but she clearly has no idea where Sansa is before LF tells her, then instantly okays a plan to take them down on nothing more than LF's word. If that was the case he may as well have told Cersei Sansa was with the Boltons without actually sending her and the result would have been the same.



And the fact that the Boltons of all people didn't see a betrayal like this coming is also a little unbelieveable; you would think that Roose Bolton has a nose for treachery by now.


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I found the speed with which Cersei believed the Bolton's had betrayed her was a little problematic. It might just be a case of narrative economy, but she clearly has no idea where Sansa is before LF tells her, then instantly okays a plan to take them down on nothing more than LF's word. If that was the case he may as well have told Cersei Sansa was with the Boltons without actually sending her and the result would have been the same.

And the fact that the Boltons of all people didn't see a betrayal like this coming is also a little unbelieveable; you would think that Roose Bolton has a nose for treachery by now.

Oh he isnt going back to the Boltons

He bets on Stannis.

If Stannis wins everyone will rally for former crown house. LF will try to convince Stannis that he destroyed Cercei so that Stannis could take the IT.

Even if stannis loses, he will probably convince the boltons that he had to take down Cercei because the Lannisters were going to eventually kill the Boltons.

The speed, its because she knows Tyrion didnt do it but Sansa did. Remember the necklace. She knows someone helped her but with the large number of rival houses she doesnt know which.

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Oh he isnt going back to the Boltons

He bets on Stannis.

If Stannis wins everyone will rally for former crown house. LF will try to convince Stannis that he destroyed Cercei so that Stannis could take the IT.

Even if stannis loses, he will probably convince the boltons that he had to take down Cercei because the Lannisters were going to eventually kill the Boltons.

The speed, its because she knows Tyrion didnt do it but Sansa did. Remember the necklace. She knows someone helped her but with the large number of rival houses she doesnt know which.

But does it really seem credible that any government which Stannis forms will have LF in it, no matter how much support he provides? At the moment LF will be lucky to keep his head if Stannis wins, let alone remain a senior peer of the realm. The plan does make some sense, but a lot of it relies on people doing what he wants even if it's not necessarily in their best interest, with Sansa being the most egregious example. Giving Lord Royce Robin to foster places the Vale in someone else's hands, but LF's position doesn't seem to have changed. How is he going to sell the idea of rescuing Sansa from the Bolton's to the lords of the vale? Obviously they will want to keep her safe, but the first question I would ask is why she was in that position to begin with - she left in LF's company after all.

And my point about Cersei wasn't that she wouldn't believe LF. She has ample reason to think the worst of both Sansa and the Boltons. So in creating an urgency for LF to take the North, did Sansa even need to go to Winterfell at all in LF's plan if Cersei was already so eager to believe it?

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But does it really seem credible that any government which Stannis forms will have LF in it, no matter how much support he provides? At the moment LF will be lucky to keep his head if Stannis wins, let alone remain a senior peer of the realm. The plan does make some sense, but a lot of it relies on people doing what he wants even if it's not necessarily in their best interest, with Sansa being the most egregious example. Giving Lord Royce Robin to foster places the Vale in someone else's hands, but LF's position doesn't seem to have changed. How is he going to sell the idea of rescuing Sansa from the Bolton's to the lords of the vale? Obviously they will want to keep her safe, but the first question I would ask is why she was in that position to begin with - she left in LF's company after all.

And my point about Cersei wasn't that she wouldn't believe LF. She has ample reason to think the worst of both Sansa and the Boltons. So in creating an urgency for LF to take the North, did Sansa even need to go to Winterfell at all in LF's plan if Cersei was already so eager to believe it?

I guess he doesnt give a shit about Sansa. His obsession with power is more important.

What if Cercei found out Sansa was not in WF. He neednt take the risk when he can actually put her there since the Boltons were already eager. Sansa is just a chess piece to him.

I too doubt it. But why in hell does all his plans work so correctly in the show?

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I guess he doesnt give a shit about Sansa. His obsession with power is more important.

What if Cercei found out Sansa was not in WF. He neednt take the risk when he can actually put her there since the Boltons were already eager. Sansa is just a chess piece to him.

I too doubt it. But why in hell does all his plans work so correctly in the show?

I would argue that evidence of a betrothal would probably be enough to tip Cersei over the edge. What I'm saying is that if convincing Cersei to turn against Roose was the only plot related reason LF had Sansa marry Ramsay, I don't find it a particularly credible move on the part of the writers.

GRRM can also be blamed for LF's seeming invincibility. Even though he is characterized as far less overtly sneaky than he is in the show, after five books LF has gained huge amounts of power, money and influence and still nobody is suspicious about his motives. It does get a little hard to swallow.

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I guess he doesnt give a shit about Sansa. His obsession with power is more important.

What if Cercei found out Sansa was not in WF. He neednt take the risk when he can actually put her there since the Boltons were already eager. Sansa is just a chess piece to him.

I too doubt it. But why in hell does all his plans work so correctly in the show?

It wont work out in for much longer.

In the books GRRM lets characters get away with stuff for a certain amount of time then brings everything down in them.

In the show Sansa will run from the Bolton marriage and turn against him, Stannis will not deal with him, Dorne will kick both the Lannisters and the Tyrells out of power and then Dany will invade. Although I have a feeling that he will join up with Dany it wont save him because Sansa will spend the rest of the story waiting for a chance to extract her revenge on him.

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I sometimes Imagine no one taking down LF, that's part of the bittersweet ending. One of the worst villains of the story gets away rich and powerfull.


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It only takes a knife to kill a person. Money and power can only protect you so much. LF has only survived this long because most of his victims don't really know that he has targeted them. Tyrion has had at least two attempts on his life from LF but has not put two and two together. Sansa, on the other hand, now has good reason to turn against him and if she ever finds out even just one of his acts against her family she will actively want him dead.


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Some things in this thread that have been raised as questions, problems with LFs plan.

Cerise never knew Sansa was in the Vale because the Vale Lords promised not to tell anyone who she really was and her hair was a different colour.

LF and Sansa got through Moat Calin easily because Roose knew they were coming and sent word to let them pass. At this stage we can think that no-one knew Sansa was Sansa outside of LF, his personal guard, Brienne, Pod and Roose.

LF has clearly stated that he has only ever loved one woman - Cat. He is not lying here. Cat does not include Sansa. I do not believe LF has any particular appreciation for Sansa beyond knowing she is an important piece in his game - to him all people are prostitutes and the world is a brothel. Sansa is just a prostitute that he has risked a lot to acquire and from which he expects the highest returns.

Why does LF kiss Sansa? To let Sansa think that she has some control over him - he is playing Sansa by letting her think she has the ability to play him, which she doesn't because Sansa is not Cat. LF lost the ability to love when Brandon cut him open and embarrassed him in front of Cat, at which point in time the chip on his shoulder became psychotic and chaotic. He is just tricking Sansa into thinking that she matters enough to be 'partners' with him, when she doesn't at all.

LF could genuinely not have heard about Ramsay's less than savoury habits because Roose tried to keep a lid on them. How many people beyond Roose, Ramsay, Myranda and now Sansa know Reek is Theon? How many people beyond Reek, Ramsay, Myranda and now Sansa know Ramsay likes hunting girls that bore him? Besides, it may not be the kind of thing LF cared about, or even enquired about. LF would have been more interested in was that Ramsay's title was legitimate, to make sure he is including another power player in his web.

I think it is a mistake to think with any kind of sympathy for any characters when trying to work out LFs plan - he has none. I think it is also a mistake to think that his plan is like a grand master plan that he is expecting to play out a certain way - it isn't. What LF is doing is hedging his bets and starting little fires everywhere at the same time.

Imagine there is a horse race and you put $100 down on each horse but also put a bomb in each horse. Halfway through the race, you have the ability to put $1000 on a horse of your choosing, say number 8, that is leading. 3/4s of the way through the race you can see number 12 is overtaking number 8 but you have no money left, so you blow up number 12, hoping to still collect on number 8. That's the kind of game he is playing, I think.

Also, agree with setoverset's post re LFs goal, it's more than the IT - it shifts. He wants more, he wants it all - and if he had it all, he would destroy it all to ensure no-one could ever have any of it again. He just wants to win, or see everyone else lose.

Yes exactly! He doesn't want the IT, he only wants to win, and he doesn't only want to win, he wants everyone else to lose. This makes total sense for his motivations. Also really explains why he is so reckless on the show.

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