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Blind Beth the Cat Lady

Illyrio's Fingers

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That's a good find. Certainly sounds like Ilyrio, but all that he has put in motion, suddenly FOR NOT...

Brings to mind the name of Rickon's direwolf.

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I like your idea about Illyrio setting Viserys and Daenerys on the run and keeping them on the run, but keep this SSM in mind...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona

Hm. This may come across as quibbling, but is it not possible that V&I were not *initially* aware, but discovered it later? For my interpretation of events to work, I only really need Illryio to know of Doran's involvement by the time the children leave the house with the red door. Presumably this was some time after the marriage pact was signed.

Wow! This is some thread. Still working through it, but I believe you have something with Ilyrio. His workings are not always easy to pick up and interpret. I also ambinteeested about the bit about the AER. And if Dany is in fact the AER, who then is the Bloodstone Emperor? And will they have the same roles as history indicates. I have been of the impression of late that the Bloodstone Emperor and Azores Ahai were the same... But your thread gives some other options to consider, for me anyway.

Thanks. :-) As for current analogs to other players in the Long Night saga...I'll just say I think the BER and AA are sort of the same and sort of not. I think "Azor Ahai Reborn" is actually the original title, meaning that Azor Ahai must be a resurrected person. Who can in some way be seen as living the second life of the person playing the role of the BER. I get into that more in my next post, about the alt-named God Kings.

The only other time I recall Varys referring to the good of thee realm was when he was maneuvering The Ned in the black cells. He was appealing to The Ned's sense of duty.

Hm. I focused mainly on Illyrio and not much on Varys, so I can't argue with you there. But I think the most important thing about Varys in terms of my theory is that he is focused on the Iron Throne and Westeros, not so much on the global picture.

I'm thinking the two passages foreshadow his fate. I suspect that Illyrio will betray Daenerys for blood.

Really? I'm not sure I follow you there.

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How do you know Illyrio is not a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre? He could be the descendant of some daughter or granddaughter of House Blackfyre.

This.

The statue of the young Illyrio reminds Tyrion of a young Aegon IV.

Illyrio mentions Blackfyres dying out only in the male line.

Illyrion corrects Tyrion on the cheeries being "Black Cherries".

I think Serra (and Varys) are Brightflame descendants and Illyrio is a Blackfyre descendant. The Brightfyre theory is quite compelling.

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This is a fantastic post and I think we need some of the forums heavy hitters to get involved.


Mithras, Yolkboy, Fireater, Butterbumps, J Stargaryen, Where are you!!!!


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Great post Blind Beth! I want to begin by applauding the general line of inquiry here. You're thinking the right way about Illyrio - big picture. We have always known that there are people behind the scenes of basically everything, pulling strings. Varys, Illyrio, Quaithe, Bloodraven, Euron, Marwyn, and possibly others - we should not think we fully understand any of their agendas based on what the the characters in the book take at face value. Think from the perspective of George as a writer. You don't reveal the evil mastermind's plot early in the books. Therefore, we should basically assume that all of these string pullers, the major players, have more going on that we know. This mindset has led you to to some interesting discoveries regarding Illyrio, so bravo. :)



I've always been one to interpret his actions towards Dany as being helpful, especially after he learned that her dragons had awoken. The point you made about Illyrio sending Dany into the Dothraki sea with those eggs being a way of testing Dany, to see if she was the real deal makes a damn lot of sense. He's obviously made a concerted effort to raise fAegon to be a good ruler, which seems to be related to his blood ties to fAegon, but he's also very concerned with making sure fAegon is worthy. He also doesn't seem overprotective of fAegon - attached and fond, yes, but he knows fAegon must go out into the world and prove himself, to be tested. He either has faith fAegon and Dany will emerge stronger and more battle ready from their trials, or he has the mindset of "well, if they fail or die, then it wasn't meant to be."



It's interesting that when Illyrio hears of Dany taking his ships to Slaver's Bay instead of Volantis, he chuckles fondly and remarks how she is every bit the dragon queen or every bit the Targaryen, something like that. This is a guy who knows what he's gotten himself into, and is fine with it. It reflects a certain confidence or faith that things will work out. Which I have to say, I admire. It's a good mindset. In fact, when you get past the obesity and gluttony, there's a lot to like about Illyrio, actually. I wonder if he may be suffering from a bit of reader bias in this regard, as his gluttony is shoved right in our faces as being fairly gross. George maybe playing with fat-biases a bit here, in a less obvious way than he has with Sam. He also has done something similar with Brienne and her awkwardness and lack of gender conformity. Many people still don't think about her as a main character, which she is.



We have known that Illyrio is a R'hllorist since we first met him. He is in possession of dragon eggs, trades in dragon bone, and seems to be doing everything he can to help the young dragons which are under his influence. In general, I agree with you, Blind Beth, that his goals definitely seem to be bigger than personal glory or even glory for his probable son.


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I love this thread, in that Illyrio is one of those characters I glossed over in earlier readings, and he certainly deserves a closer look. I would point out a few things. I think Illyrio, like Manderly, is so obese because he is eating deep pain. I think the parallel might go beyond that in that both might be addressing their pain by playing king maker, Manderly with Rickon, Illyrio with Aegon/Faegon/Daenerys. What are his deeper interests? I wouldn't write off a Blackfire connection, for sure, but Illyrio does seem to be connected to world politics as well. Let's not forget that if he is connected to the Blackfyre then he might have some awareness of the prophesies held by the Targaryens, like the Prince that was Promised. I benevolent Varys and Illyrio scheme to wed Faegon Blakfyre to Daenerys Targaryen and resolve that conflict in time to stop the end of the world might no be too pie in the sky. The end of the world would after all be ruinous to cheese prices.



As for the rings, I must admit they are tantalizing and over detailed. Does anyone here think he or she would actually recognize a tourmaline stone in a ring? I'll be watching to see how the discussion of their significance plays out.


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I love this thread, in that Illyrio is one of those characters I glossed over in earlier readings, and he certainly deserves a closer look. I would point out a few things. I think Illyrio, like Manderly, is so obese because he is eating deep pain. I think the parallel might go beyond that in that both might be addressing their pain by playing king maker, Manderly with Rickon, Illyrio with Aegon/Faegon/Daenerys. What are his deeper interests? I wouldn't write off a Blackfire connection, for sure, but Illyrio does seem to be connected to world politics as well. Let's not forget that if he is connected to the Blackfyre then he might have some awareness of the prophesies held by the Targaryens, like the Prince that was Promised. I benevolent Varys and Illyrio scheme to wed Faegon Blakfyre to Daenerys Targaryen and resolve that conflict in time to stop the end of the world might no be too pie in the sky. The end of the world would after all be ruinous to cheese prices.



As for the rings, I must admit they are tantalizing and over detailed. Does anyone here think he or she would actually recognize a tourmaline stone in a ring? I'll be watching to see how the discussion of their significance plays out.


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As for the rings, let's look at the first appearance of them, when Arya sees him and Varys under the Red Keep in the sewers. Red gold, pale silver, ruby, sapphire, and tiger's eye. As we discussed, the tiger's eye really evokes the cat eyes of the cotf (thanks for the shoutout ;)), while sapphires are the eyes of the Others, Melisandre, our most fiery being, has red eyes, and the ruby at her throat is called a third eye, drawing the comparison. So what we have here are eyes of earth (cotf) eyes of ice (others), and eyes of fire (fire people). From my perspective, thinking about astronomy, the red gold and the pale silver sound like the fire moon and the ice moon.

Moving on to the second group, we get emeralds added to the list, and taken with rubies and sapphires, we have the holy color trinity of Westeros - red, blue, green, like the Trident. J Stargaryen is the master of the color symbolism, maybe he has more to add on this. Then we get 6 of the Geodawnian gems, plus black diamond, with its obvious dragon connotations. Jet I was stumped on but you pointed out the association with Summer Islanders, so its kind of like an acknowledgement of them as a founding people, or a Dawn Age people, something like that.

In other words, my attempts to decode this very specific and conspicuously detailed list of ring gems has centered around broad implications about magic and the GeoDawnian legacy, but I think your interpretations of them as they pertain to things relevant to Illyrio has merit as well. Honestly, I've seen George come up with metaphors that have 2 or even three different meanings, so this wouldn't surprise me a bit if he was thinking this way. He LIKES seeing how many layers of interconnected meaning he can stack on top of one another, I really think he gets off on the complexity of it. Some people worship cleverness almost like a god - myself among them - and for these folks, its all about feeling clever yourself and reveling in the cleverness of others. That's why I just LOVE IT when smart little pencils like yourself have these kind of insights - it's awesome to see your mind working and it gets others' minds working. My favorite thing about posting my theories has been the awesome contributions and ideas others have thrown back at me, it's been such a blast. Hopefully we aren't all crazy. ;)

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The first thing we should note about Illyrio is that George associated him with yellow intensely.



He has a forked yellow beard.


He has crooked yellow teeth.


He has a pair of heavy breasts that sagged like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair.


He has a yellow smile.



George also associated Yunkai with yellow. It is called the Yellow City, ruled by Wise Masters, steeped in corruption. Even the most honorable of them, Yezzan, dresses in yellow, has yellow eyes and yellow teeth, and twice as fat as Illyrio. They spread lies about Dany, sent envoys to bribe and woo the triarchs to join the war against Dany. Another crooked man with yellow teeth, Arnolf Karstark, feigned loyalty to Stannis, only to backstab him at the right moment.



Therefore, we have seen enough to deduce that yellow is the color of corruption, deception, lies, betrayal, backstabbing and worse in ASOIAF.



That means the mouth of Illyrio smiling yellow smiles with crooked yellow teeth can only speak lies.



Here is something I have found recently:



CHAI DUQ, the fourth yellow emperor, who took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria and kept a dragon at his court.



Illyrio, the man who is associated with yellow intensely, took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria (Serra) and kept a dragon (fAegon) at his court.


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CHAI DUQ, the fourth yellow emperor, who took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria and kept a dragon at his court.

Illyrio, the man who is associated with yellow intensely, took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria (Serra) and kept a dragon (fAegon) at his court.

That's a pretty good one. ;)

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You know, think about Chai Duq for a minute. He married a Valyrian and kept a dragon at court. He's essentially trying to re-create the Great Empire of the Dawn right there! And that's exactly the premise of the OP, that Illyrio is doing the very same thing. :)


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You know, think about Chai Duq for a minute. He married a Valyrian and kept a dragon at court. He's essentially trying to re-create the Great Empire of the Dawn right there! And that's exactly the premise of the OP, that Illyrio is doing the very same thing. :)

Presently, seventeenth azure emperor sits in the capitol of Yi Ti. But an exile sorcerer lord dwelling in the city Carcosa on the Hidden Sea past the Mountains of the Morn claims to be the sixty-ninth yellow emperor, from a dynasty fallen for a thousand years. ;)

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This.

The statue of the young Illyrio reminds Tyrion of a young Aegon IV.

Illyrio mentions Blackfyres dying out only in the male line.

Illyrion corrects Tyrion on the cheeries being "Black Cherries".

I think Serra (and Varys) are Brightflame descendants and Illyrio is a Blackfyre descendant. The Brightfyre theory is quite compelling.

You might be right, but I've always found the Brightflame descendents speculation a little less convincing than the Blackfyre descendants. The second two points you make just indicate Illyrio having a Blackfyre connection, which he would anyway if he married one. Emphasizing the Blackfyres only dying out in the male line sort of points to Serra being the dragonblooded one in the relationship since Aegon would then have his dragonblood through the female line. Black cherries-Blackfyres.

So I'm not ruling out Brightflame involvement here, I just don't see much evidence for it. The statue might just be a posture thing, or a red herring.

This is a fantastic post and I think we need some of the forums heavy hitters to get involved.

Mithras, Yolkboy, Fireater, Butterbumps, J Stargaryen, Where are you!!!!

Aw, thanks!

Great post Blind Beth! I want to begin by applauding the general line of inquiry here. You're thinking the right way about Illyrio - big picture. We have always known that there are people behind the scenes of basically everything, pulling strings. Varys, Illyrio, Quaithe, Bloodraven, Euron, Marwyn, and possibly others - we should not think we fully understand any of their agendas based on what the the characters in the book take at face value. Think from the perspective of George as a writer. You don't reveal the evil mastermind's plot early in the books. Therefore, we should basically assume that all of these string pullers, the major players, have more going on that we know. This mindset has led you to to some interesting discoveries regarding Illyrio, so bravo. :)

I've always been one to interpret his actions towards Dany as being helpful, especially after he learned that her dragons had awoken. The point you made about Illyrio sending Dany into the Dothraki sea with those eggs being a way of testing Dany, to see if she was the real deal makes a damn lot of sense. He's obviously made a concerted effort to raise fAegon to be a good ruler, which seems to be related to his blood ties to fAegon, but he's also very concerned with making sure fAegon is worthy. He also doesn't seem overprotective of fAegon - attached and fond, yes, but he knows fAegon must go out into the world and prove himself, to be tested. He either has faith fAegon and Dany will emerge stronger and more battle ready from their trials, or he has the mindset of "well, if they fail or die, then it wasn't meant to be."

It's interesting that when Illyrio hears of Dany taking his ships to Slaver's Bay instead of Volantis, he chuckles fondly and remarks how she is every bit the dragon queen or every bit the Targaryen, something like that. This is a guy who knows what he's gotten himself into, and is fine with it. It reflects a certain confidence or faith that things will work out. Which I have to say, I admire. It's a good mindset. In fact, when you get past the obesity and gluttony, there's a lot to like about Illyrio, actually. I wonder if he may be suffering from a bit of reader bias in this regard, as his gluttony is shoved right in our faces as being fairly gross. George maybe playing with fat-biases a bit here, in a less obvious way than he has with Sam. He also has done something similar with Brienne and her awkwardness and lack of gender conformity. Many people still don't think about her as a main character, which she is.

We have known that Illyrio is a R'hllorist since we first met him. He is in possession of dragon eggs, trades in dragon bone, and seems to be doing everything he can to help the young dragons which are under his influence. In general, I agree with you, Blind Beth, that his goals definitely seem to be bigger than personal glory or even glory for his probable son.

Thanks!

Yeah, I didn't use that quote but that's yet another thing that sort of points to Illyrio having seen Dany as more than a decoy from a fairly early stage.

Ha, yes, sometimes I feel like GRRM actually enjoys writing ugly people more than attractive or average people. The most unattractive characters turn out so interesting. Even the Yellow Whale isn't half bad for a slaver.

I love this thread, in that Illyrio is one of those characters I glossed over in earlier readings, and he certainly deserves a closer look. I would point out a few things. I think Illyrio, like Manderly, is so obese because he is eating deep pain. I think the parallel might go beyond that in that both might be addressing their pain by playing king maker, Manderly with Rickon, Illyrio with Aegon/Faegon/Daenerys. What are his deeper interests? I wouldn't write off a Blackfire connection, for sure, but Illyrio does seem to be connected to world politics as well. Let's not forget that if he is connected to the Blackfyre then he might have some awareness of the prophesies held by the Targaryens, like the Prince that was Promised. I benevolent Varys and Illyrio scheme to wed Faegon Blakfyre to Daenerys Targaryen and resolve that conflict in time to stop the end of the world might no be too pie in the sky. The end of the world would after all be ruinous to cheese prices.

As for the rings, I must admit they are tantalizing and over detailed. Does anyone here think he or she would actually recognize a tourmaline stone in a ring? I'll be watching to see how the discussion of their significance plays out.

Thanks!

And yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Eating and kingmaking to fill an emotional void.

Yes, there are actually so many ways Illyrio could have run into various prophecies; through Blackfyres, through his trade with the East, through the Red Priests. It would almost be weird if he managed not to know about them.

Yup, great empires make great trade; wars and apocalypses not so much. :-)

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FWIW, there seems to be a connection between yellow and falseness. The only mention of yellow topaz in the novels is on Stannis's sword belt when he first publicly unsheathes the false Lightbringer, which itself is tellingly yellow instead of red. That didn't fit very well into my examination of Illyrio's concious motives, but between his yellow hair, Chai Duq, and the yellow pretender in Yi Ti, we might have a theme of people trying to force a GeoDawnian resurgence but hitting a lot of false notes. (In Illyrio's case, I think he's got the wrong Bloodstone Emperor--and he doesn't seem to know about Jon at all.)


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Hm. This may come across as quibbling, but is it not possible that V&I were not *initially* aware, but discovered it later? For my interpretation of events to work, I only really need Illryio to know of Doran's involvement by the time the children leave the house with the red door. Presumably this was some time after the marriage pact was signed.

Thanks. :-) As for current analogs to other players in the Long Night saga...I'll just say I think the BER and AA are sort of the same and sort of not. I think "Azor Ahai Reborn" is actually the original title, meaning that Azor Ahai must be a resurrected person. Who can in some way be seen as living the second life of the person playing the role of the BER. I get into that more in my next post, about the alt-named God Kings.

Hm. I focused mainly on Illyrio and not much on Varys, so I can't argue with you there. But I think the most important thing about Varys in terms of my theory is that he is focused on the Iron Throne and Westeros, not so much on the global picture.

Really? I'm not sure I follow you there.

As to the first, quibble all you like. That's what we're here for. :) As to the last, I suspect Daenerys's three treasons will come at once: Illyrio for blood of House Blackfyre, Tyrion for allthe gold of Casterly Rock, and Aegon for love of Arianne or possibly Sansa.

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CHAI DUQ, the fourth yellow emperor, who took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria and kept a dragon at his court.

Illyrio, the man who is associated with yellow intensely, took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria (Serra) and kept a dragon (fAegon) at his court.

Great find!

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Presently, seventeenth azure emperor sits in the capitol of Yi Ti. But an exile sorcerer lord dwelling in the city Carcosa on the Hidden Sea past the Mountains of the Morn claims to be the sixty-ninth yellow emperor, from a dynasty fallen for a thousand years. ;)

A bit more of a stretch but it works.

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FWIW, there seems to be a connection between yellow and falseness. The only mention of yellow topaz in the novels is on Stannis's sword belt when he first publicly unsheathes the false Lightbringer, which itself is tellingly yellow instead of red. That didn't fit very well into my examination of Illyrio's concious motives, but between his yellow hair, Chai Duq, and the yellow pretender in Yi Ti, we might have a theme of people trying to force a GeoDawnian resurgence but hitting a lot of false notes. (In Illyrio's case, I think he's got the wrong Bloodstone Emperor--and he doesn't seem to know about Jon at all.)

This might fit with that...

After that the old man spent more time sleeping than awake, curled up beneath a pile of furs in the captains cabin. Sometimes he would mutter in his sleep. When he woke hed call for Sam, insisting that he had to tell him something, but oft as not he would have forgotten what he meant to say by the time that Sam arrived. Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads, he wailed, but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

Samwell IV, Feast

The Sphinx looks slight, but theres strength in those slim arms, he reflected, as Alleras threw a leg across the bench and reached for his wine cup. "The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

"No riddle."Allras sipped his wine. The rest of them were quaffing tankards of the fearsomely strong cider that the Quill and Tankard was renowned for, but he preferred the strange, sweet wines of his mothers country. Even in Oldtown such wines did not come cheap. It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras the Sphinx. A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadels main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx.

Prologue, Feast

I believe that Aegon is Aemons sphinx, a chimera just like the manticore noted with the griffin and the dragon. The classical Greek sphinx would not allow anyone to pass unless he could solve the riddle posed by the sphinx. But in this case the sphinx, Aegon, is the riddle, being a Blackfyre and perhaps a Brightflame (and maybe even a Bloodstar too). And if Daenerys doesnt guess the riddle Aegon will destroy her.

As Daenerys enters Qarth, she passes under an arch of green, black, and blue snakes...

All the colors that had been missing from Vaes Tolorro had found their way to Qarth; buildings crowded about her fantastical as a fever dream in shades of rose, violet, and umber. She passed under a bronze arch fashioned in the likeness of two snakes mating, their scales delicate flakes of jade, obsidian, and lapis lazuli. Slim towers stood taller than any Dany had ever seen, and elaborate fountains filled every square, wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores.

Daenerys II, Clash

Notice that she observes fountains wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. The griffin and dragon allusions are easy, of course, Jon Connington and Aegon. But the manticore allusion is much more elusive. In case you dont know, the manticore is a chimera, a fantastical beast comprised of the body parts of more than one animal or other mythical beast. The manticore most commonly consisted of a human head, a lions body, a bats wings, and a scorpions tail, but there were other variations. In ASOIAF, the manticore was much smaller, with a malign, black face and an arched, venomous tail, with the ability to fold itself into a scarab. In the real world, the manticore and chimeras were depicted in the art of the Romanesque and Renaissance periods to symbolize fraud. So, we have Jon Connington, Aegon, and fraud.

And consider the manticore that attacked Daenerys, disguised as...

a glittering green scarab, carved from onyx and emerald.

Daenerys V, Clash

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Under the sea, the flames burn green and black and blue, don't they?


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