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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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[MOD NOTE] If you cannot discuss the Sansa storyline with maturity and compassion, then you will not be discussing the topic at all. Please note that this thread will be heavily moderated. Thank you. [/MOD]


Edited by Xray the Enforcer

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Moving on from Winterfell, we have a big change from the books in KL. So now the grounds for Margaery's arrest actually has some legitimacy although I never expected that punishment for perjury would be so severe. But how does she actually get out of this, as it happened right in front of us plain and clear, whereas in the books there is little evidence for Margaery's alleged crimes. Is this a hint towards Margaery's eventual fate in TWOW, that she will fail her trial?

Though to be honest, I'm surprised D&D's minds didn't run wild when they read Cersei repeatedly asking the Kettleblacks whether they had "plucked that rose" yet or however she puts it.

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With all this Sansa talk, no onne seems to care about the wonderful set design in the hall of faces,it was quite similar to what i had imagined reading the books. The whole sequence with that eerie music had me captivated.



Cheers to Alfie Allen hes one actor who can bring the best emotions across screen without saying a word,right from burning the letter to Robb in season 2 to the scene today.


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Here's my attempt to be grown up about Sansa's arc.



I don't get why people think that Sansa getting in a bad situation means that her last scene of season 4 doesn't make sense. Character arcs don't go need to learn something, learn it , win. They usually have characters trying many multiple tactics to get to their goal or even repeating the same mistakes over and over until they succeed. A 2 hour movie will usually 4 or 5 different screw ups by the main character before they finally get on the right track so an 8 season epic fantasy season should have quite a few more than that. In real life most people do continually make the same mistakes, get in the same holes and continue the same habits while somebody completely changing the way they react to situations or changing their world view is usually very difficult once or twice in a decade event and fiction reflects this.


I think the trouble is that people have gotten to respect LF too much. This means that Sansa turning into LF 2.0 is not seen as an obviously bad thing in the way that, say, Arya become no one is. Really all the characters on apprenticeship type arcs are being set up to fail and it is just that some are more obvious than others. We know all the time that no matter how well Dany does with organising Meereen she will be leaving but with Jon we don't realise that being leader of the NW is not his ultimate role until his final chapter. Similarly with Sansa we think she is safe because we have not seen the end of her arc but it may well be that what happens in the show with Ramsey is not dissimilar to what happens with Harry. Being smart at politics doesn't stop someone being sexually naive. Wearing a black dress did not turn a teenage girl into a seductress.


I think the rape is not meant to empower her like in some daft Hollywood film but it will change her. It will stop her trusting LF and make her more self-reliant. Hopefully it will drive a wedge between her and LF that no amount of his smarming on his part will be able to heal (and without any "LF killed your father and tried to kill your brother" info dump). I think the show is revealing that the point of Sansa's character was never to become a player (which sounds pretty disgusting and stupid now we have seen the effects of such game playing on a well loved character rather than just a stand in) but to be someone who decides they don't want to play LF and Varys's game and goes their own way. This ties in with Sophie's comments about Sansa wanting to start a new house, she wants to succeed on her merits and forge her own destiny rather than play the Stark card. There's a good chance that Sansa will become more like Stannis, living by his own moral code and not even trying to play the game, rather than LF. It didn't work for Ned because he was ultra-honourable and politically inept but Sansa is neither of those things.


This episode not only showed what a sham and risk arranged marriages are through Sansa's arc but also in Marg's story. Power through marriage is a great dynastic tool just so long as you are not the one in the marriage pact. Even if she had been married to someone who seemed like Mr Nice Guy she would still have been at risk of the same treatment on her wedding night. I think LF and Lysa and Dany and Drogo are relevant here as to how show Sansa might react. LF was disgusted by Lysa, she demanded sex, and threatened his life if he did not give her what she wanted lets not forget, but he put up with it as he had a plan from the start and was just waiting for an opportunity it push her out the moon door. Dany had no idea what she was doing, she had months of living hell until she learned to please Drogo and had to internalise her need to please him to survive as love. From Sophie's comment about Sansa needing to try and understand Ramsay and how to please him we can see she will probably go down the Dany path at first but we also know (as we have been blatantly told) she has a plan and I expect that part of her to win out by the end of the season even if it is just jumping over the wall with Theon to find Stannis. Whatever happens I bet that show Sansa will never see political marriage as an acceptable tool again.


That Vanity Fair article is disgusting. It is either saying that women who have power and agency don't get raped or that women who are raped no longer have power or agency. Seriously some of the anti-show comments are far more messed up about rape than those trying to work out what it means in the show. Does it mean Sansa is stupid because she should have seen it coming? No because, as I have said above, anyone in that situation, no matter how nice the other party seems, is vulnerable to the same thing happening to them. People worrying about Sansa's arc not working now she has lost her virginity or that she might be pregnant. No one was worried about whether Jeyne might be carrying Ramsay's child as she was being beaten or getting frostbite. Neither Cersei, Dany or Lysa had their marriage prospects dented by being a mother. People might also want to remember that in the original story GRRM planned for Sansa to have Joffery's child so it's not completely against her character.


I also want to point out that it is clear from the leaked story outline that GRRM split a lot of his original characters main into three or four different characters as he expanded the story. It may well have been that the original character to have taken Jeyne Poole's role was Sansa but GRRM in the end decided that he wanted her to spend more time around LF. The original story may well have had a young mother Sansa being raped by evil Jaime and we just read the fractured shards of that story. GRRM is repeating is "the same story told differently" thing on his blog again. I would believe him rather than trying to put words in his mouth.

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We have spoiler free threads. I would like a nevergonnawatchagin free thread.



All the things they whined about in episode one as being gratuitous have turned out to be pivotal. And much of this was predictably important thought the details were a surprise.



The High Sparrow's move on Margery was identical to Kenneth Starr's move on Bill Clinton.






With all this Sansa talk, no onne seems to care about the wonderful set design in the hall of faces,it was quite similar to what i had imagined reading the books. The whole sequence with that eerie music had me captivated.



Cheers to Alfie Allen hes one actor who can bring the best emotions across screen without saying a word,right from burning the letter to Robb in season 2 to the scene today.





When I saw that, I thought "well they can do that in the show, they have a much higher budget than GRRM had for the books".

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With all this Sansa talk, no onne seems to care about the wonderful set design in the hall of faces,it was quite similar to what i had imagined reading the books. The whole sequence with that eerie music had me captivated.

Hasn't that been what it's like all season long? Everyone only cares about Sansa and says pretty much nothing about everything else in comparison.

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In the inquest scene, do you think Olyvar was acting on orders from LF? Notice that he tells the "truth", but omits any details about how he first met Loras (working for LF). The idea would be that this would create further chaos by openly pitting the Tyrell's against Cersei and the faith militant, creating opportunities for him.


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In the inquest scene, do you think Olyvar was acting on orders from LF? Notice that he tells the "truth", but omits any details about how he first met Loras (working for LF). The idea would be that this would create further chaos by openly pitting the Tyrell's against Cersei and the faith militant, creating opportunities for him.

Yeah, I'm getting the feeling that Littlefinger will be the one to get Cersei arrested, by feeding information to Olenna about Lancel. Though it doesn't make any sense, as Littlefinger already reminded Cersei he knew about Lancel, which would place him in crosshairs immediately, and Cersei is going to make him Warden of the North. Then again, little about Littlefinger makes any sense, so anything can happen I guess...

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I'm very disapointed. I understand that TV show must be independente and I really don't like to compare with the books. Each one is a story by itself, with the needs and particularities of each medium.


I understand that each character is in his own journey in the story. Sansa will be proved, and all "The Power of the Myth" stuff, and will growth as a character. BUT it seems that last episode pushes beyond of that.


It's beyond her journey Sansa going through by all Jeyne Poole has passed in the books. Sansa going to Winterfell does not makes sense at all, but the rape scene seems even more misplaced, unecessary.



This is why nobody is talking about other plots: there is nothing to drawn attention and producers rely upon sex elements to catch viewers.


By now, GoT episodes just get attention by rape and prejudice scenes, which is well beyond of the usual reality of "violence happens all the time and women and children suffer more".

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I'm very disapointed. I understand that TV show must be independente and I really don't like to compare with the books. Each one is a story by itself, with the needs and particularities of each medium.


I understand that each character is in his own journey in the story. Sansa will be proved, and all "The Power of the Myth" stuff, and will growth as a character. BUT it seems that last episode pushes beyond of that.


It's beyond her journey Sansa going through by all Jeyne Poole has passed in the books. Sansa going to Winterfell does not makes sense at all, but the rape scene seems even more misplaced, unecessary.



This is why nobody is talking about other plots: there is nothing to drawn attention and producers rely upon sex elements to catch viewers.


By now, GoT episodes just get attention by rape and prejudice scenes, which is well beyond of the usual reality of "violence happens all the time and women and children suffer more".

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Hasn't that been what it's like all season long? Everyone only cares about Sansa and says pretty much nothing about everything else in comparison.

Of the show's incredibly talented actors and their capacity in the late seasons to make great shots and FX, we've talked a lot. There are plenty of posts praising this. But when discussing an individual episode, we should focus into what's different from the other ones. Not about what's the standards of the series.

In the inquest scene, do you think Olyvar was acting on orders from LF? Notice that he tells the "truth", but omits any details about how he first met Loras (working for LF). The idea would be that this would create further chaos by openly pitting the Tyrell's against Cersei and the faith militant, creating opportunities for him.

I honestly don't think that the writers themselves know, at this point.

I prefer to believe that they forgot about Olyvar being LF's agent, than having them consciously devise a plot that goes "In the span of 6 episodes, Littlefinger will betray Sansa to the Boltons, the Boltons to the Crown, and the Crown to the Faith. Because a state of anarchy controlled by unrestrained fanatics is what a businessman like him wishes for.

Edited by The hairy bear

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With all this Sansa talk, no onne seems to care about the wonderful set design in the hall of faces,it was quite similar to what i had imagined reading the books. The whole sequence with that eerie music had me captivated.

Cheers to Alfie Allen hes one actor who can bring the best emotions across screen without saying a word,right from burning the letter to Robb in season 2 to the scene today.

This is true, the Hall of Faces was amazing. They made it much larger than I imagined it, but it worked really well

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Also I'm curious about these pirates/slavers that Jorah and Tyrion run into. It seems to me that hiring Simon Adebisi just to play the part of a pirate/slaver for an episode or two was more expense than needed for the role, unless they're expanding on that role. Anyone feel that Adebisi's role might be longer than what it'd take to get Tyrion/Jorah to Meereen or that it seems too small a part to give to such an accomplished actor?

At this point Game of Thrones has reached the point where actors want to be on it so that they have been on it. So the normal tariffs don't necessarily apply. They have also got to the point where they have enough money to get almost any actor they might want.

The only other series to get to that level have been Doctor Who and Sesame Street. We are going to see a Maisy Williams crossover to Dr Who but I somehow doubt there is much crossover with the sesame street audience.

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Of the show's incredibly talented actors and their capacity in the late seasons to make great shots and FX, we've talked a lot. There are plenty of posts praising this. But when discussing an individual episode, we should focus into what's different from the other ones. Not about what's the standards of the series.

I honestly don't think that the writers themselves know, at this point.

I prefer to believe that they forgot about Olyvar being LF's agent, that having them conciously devised a plot that goes "In the span of 6 episodes, Littlefinger will betray Sansa to the Boltons, the Boltons to the Crown, and the Crown to the Faith. Because a state of anarchy controlled by unrestrained fanatics is what a businessman like him wishes for.

well it help the economics of the Vale no end....

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Yeah, I'm getting the feeling that Littlefinger will be the one to get Cersei arrested, by feeding information to Olenna about Lancel. Though it doesn't make any sense, as Littlefinger already reminded Cersei he knew about Lancel, which would place him in crosshairs immediately, and Cersei is going to make him Warden of the North. Then again, little about Littlefinger makes any sense, so anything can happen I guess...

Why would he stop the double cross at this point. He's so deep in, the only place to go is up. Cersei is a loose cannon, helping the Tyrells would gain him equal ground since Tommen is a stooge to whatever skirt looks at him cross eyed and a freed Margaery/satisfied Olenna would likely net him the North as well.

We also still have the scene with Olenna telling (someone) in Littelfingers brothel that they'll "never find whats left of him"...it's a pretty certain assumption.

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At this point Game of Thrones has reached the point where actors want to be on it so that they have been on it. So the normal tariffs don't necessarily apply. They have also got to the point where they have enough money to get almost any actor they might want.

The only other series to get to that level have been Doctor Who and Sesame Street. We are going to see a Maisy Williams crossover to Dr Who but I somehow doubt there is much crossover with the sesame street audience.

I really don't see the cast of Oz having Hollywood knocking down their doors for the most part.

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People probably only focus on the Sansa plot because it's the only interesting one and it has the show's last good actors in them. Why else would there be dozens of Sansa threads each week.

Edited by cerseiarya

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If you ignore sansa it was quite a good episode.

Personally liked it better than Ep5

Ooh Baelish makes sense now. But idiot doesnt know Cerceis word is shit. Ask Bronn :lol:

Tommen is just pathetic. I know he is gonner soon.

Waiting for Cercei and Roose to fail.

Would have liked Elaria to smile whrn the guards came and then suddenly realize Myrcella aint dead. That would have been good writing.

Edited by robasp2

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I LOVED that Littlefinger's plan silenced all the criticisms against him this season. "It doesnt make sense! Dumber and Dumber dont know what theyre doing!" -- booyah. Have some patience next time. Just like when there were tons of complaints about Brienne being a bully and then she apologizes to Pod. The writers stumble and fall some times but they know what theyre doing.

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If you ignore sansa it was quite a good episode.

Personally liked it better than Ep5

Ooh Baelish makes sense now. But idiot doesnt know Cerceis word is shit. Ask Bronn :lol:

Tommen is just pathetic. I know he is gonner soon.

Waiting for Cercei and Roose to fail.

Would have liked Elaria to smile whrn the guards came and then suddenly realize Myrcella aint dead. That would have been good writing.

I don't know about 'quite good' but it was probably the best of the season, LOL.

LF plan does make much more sense now. It's still not great but is no longer epically stupid, it's still very high risk, but better.

Aged up Tommen was a bad idea, it just does not work with the King's Landing story they've got. But, otherwise, I thought KL was the best it has been all season.

Dorne is terrible. I hope it plays a huge role in the books otherwise they should have cut it. It is SO BAD.

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