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[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2


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I liked a lot of things. LF’s plan seemed to make a little bit more sense than it did a few weeks ago. It seemed to make more sense why Cersei armed the sparrows without wanting money in return.


The Arya scenes were beautiful.



The sandsnakes scene was bad. Everyone agrees. Enough said about it.



The scene with Sansa, Miranda, Theon and Ramsay was perfect (forgetting about the stupid fact that she should never have agreed to going to Winterfell so easily in the first place). But given that she was there, it was handled very nicely.



But I didn’t like the ‘tasteful’ handling of her sex scene. Come one, we had so many random, pointless tits and sex scenes with people we don’t care about! For naked women, we don’t need GoT. There’s so many excellent websites. But now, we have a girl we actually care about, are intrigued about. We saw her grow up. We heel for her. Now we DO want to see her tits. Now we DO want to see her have sex. But of all cases, THIS case is handled ‘tastefully’. Couldn’t D&D have skipped all the pointless brothel (or boat sex) scenes and replaced them with one, long, graphic, functional Sansa sex scene? I honestly don’t understand it.



The viewers are also to blame. We saw endless discussions about lines like “Fetch me a block” and “Ït was Cat”. But we hear nobody complain about a much more relevant sentence that was deleted: “Reek, make her wet for me”. Why wasn’t this brutal and insightful sentence included?



And to say one last thing: I think it is very strange that hundreds of posters speak of ‘rape’. Come on, if you stupidly go along with LF’s plan, then to accept Ramsay’s proposal, then to go with him to your bedroom….. You expect a man (a medieval man) NOT to have sex on his wedding night? No, calling this rape is almost as stupid as some of D&D’s writing.


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That's the first time I've seen someone complain because the KM does hit and beat her in the books on different occasions.

Yes. Arya was never beaten for her misbehaving because she realized that the FM raise their hands only for killing. When the KM beat her while she was blind, it was meant to improve her senses. One can argue that Jaqen's beating upon her lies can be more or less the same thing but it looked more like Arya was being punished, not trained.

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The sandsnakes scene was bad. Everyone agrees. Enough said about it.

Well, they were not good in the books either. They looked more like Fox Force Five than George's usual characters in the books. The show is more faithful to the book!Sandsnakes than people think.

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The Gold Cloaks did make a move to protect her, but Tommen held up his hand to stop them. I missed that the first time watching the scene, but I noticed it the second time. I am curious as to why he stopped them and did not force the issue. I really did expect some sort of uproar from Tommen, but he did not make a move other than to hold up his hand to stop the gold cloaks. Why do you think he did not cause a scene and force the issue? I do not think it would have changed the outcome, but I found it curious as to why he did not at least make an attempt to save his queen.

As far arresting the Queen, I assume as long as the King does not stop it, then it is pretty easy. She is not a reigning queen, but merely a queen consort. Just ask Katherine Howard or Anne Boleyn how easy it was to be arrested as a queen consort.

Oh, I missed that too. Gotta watch that scene again. I guess Cersei got to him off screen. But regardless, the whole thing is still pretty flimsy to me. Just how easily Cersei could navigate the Sparrows and how powerful they became within a couple of episodes didn't gel together. But as I said, I had trouble following that plot in the books as well. So maybe its just my own stupidity. :D

To the people who have a problem with the victimization of Sansa. What the hell did you expect? Sure she grew and got better at playing the game, and she's far from the naive Sansa from a couple of seasons ago. But her situation must have been fucking terrifying. To be alone with a murdering psychopath, who's about to take your virginity while the guy who supposably killed your brother is watching. It would have been absolutely ridicoulous if she had suddenly pulled a Margery and just dropped her clothes and started riding Ramsay like nothing. THAT would have been character assassination! I hated the scene, it was awful to watch but in this context it's absolutely believable.

No, calling this rape is almost as stupid as some of D&D’s writing.

What the fuck is wrong with you man? Of course it was rape. Watch the scene again, Ramsay is obviously making her things she doesn't want to do. Forcing her to undress, ripping her clothes off while she is terrifiied, making the murderer of her brothers watch? I don't know what you have going on in your bedroom, but that's not consensual sex.

I am really not one of those hardcore feminists, that cry rape when you look at them weirdly. But that scene was very obviously rape.

Edited by ilikemyself
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I haven't commented on the show this season because it was as I said in the trailer thread, as the show goes further away from the book, it will be the worst season because the show runners aren't good enough. While, I will keep watching and it is certainly not unwatchable, the show doesn't excite me.



However, this controversial episode is one of the better episodes of this season even if I am not sure how good it is and that is due to the final scene and the winterfell setting. I found Jeyne's and Theon's suffering in the books to be riveting and engaging stuff and emotionally affecting, and the same here with Theon and Sansa. Theon's actor in particular is doing a very good job. One of the few times in this season where I actually gave a damn and felt somewhat emotionally invested. Theon is probably the best character of the show right now and the one with the more interesting and less butchered from the books character arc.


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D&D exchanged fArya for Sansa because they knew the audience wouldn't care as much about a minor character getting abused. They were right and now half of the fandom is in pieces over the storyline.


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Well I enjoyed it to be honest.. The people complaining that Sansa should be stronger against Ramsey? Really? She's just a little girl and however tough you think she is mentally would you have rather watched a scene where she put up a fight against him?



Ramsay would have beat her from one side of the room to the other. It would have been even more appalling than what we got. And even more unbelievable. Put yourself in her position-what else could she do? Light a candle in the tower?



Yes, she wasn't there in the books. There obviously streamlining and condensing characters down. It's setting up theons story for defying Ramsay.



As Rape scenes go it was far less offensive than the despicable , gratuitous rape orgy at crasters keep way back when.And more necessary for the plot their using.



Loved Jorah and Tyrion. The room of faces looked epic.Thought Arya's whipping for her condemnation of The Hound was a nice touch.



People complaining about Olenna being useless? Her hands were tied. I doubt we've seen the last of her.



Dorne is the weakpoint. Only Jamie and Bronn are giving those scenes some life. Even Doran bores me. I thought the fight scene was decent-better than the atrocious Brienne vs Jamie fight and the Unsullied/Selmy Vs the Sons Of The Harpy but I will give it another watch to see if i'm wrong.

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Hi all,

i have been following these forums since a long time now. My question from last episode: what is jaqen implying when he says that a girl is not ready to become noone, but a girl is ready to become someone?

I think the phrasing of that was very deliberate. A girl is not ready to become no one (a faceless man), but a girl is ready to become someone else (Cat of the Canals). I went back and scanned her AFFC/ADWD chapters and there were only 5, 3 in AFFC- arriving at the HOBW, her training, and Cat of the Canals/Dareon/Milk. In ADWD we get 1 blind chapter, where she learns to warg the cat, plays the lying game blind and wins, and regains her sight; and one chapter where she is inducted into the FM, Given her first assignment, and then sent to train with Izembaro.

I think the rest of her arc this season is going to be posing as Cat. Instead of Dareon, I think she's going to kill Ser Meryn, and I think her arc this season ends with her being blinded. If Jon gets stabby stabby in episode 10 and really does Warg into Ghost, we could have a really interesting season 6 with Bran warging summer, Jon warging Ghost, and Arya warging Nymeria and the Cat.

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I think the phrasing of that was very deliberate. A girl is not ready to become no one (a faceless man), but a girl is ready to become someone else (Cat of the Canals). I went back and scanned her AFFC/ADWD chapters and there were only 5, 3 in AFFC- arriving at the HOBW, her training, and Cat of the Canals/Dareon/Milk. In ADWD we get 1 blind chapter, where she learns to warg the cat, plays the lying game blind and wins, and regains her sight; and one chapter where she is inducted into the FM, Given her first assignment, and then sent to train with Izembaro.

I think the rest of her arc this season is going to be posing as Cat. Instead of Dareon, I think she's going to kill Ser Meryn, and I think her arc this season ends with her being blinded. If Jon gets stabby stabby in episode 10 and really does Warg into Ghost, we could have a really interesting season 6 with Bran warging summer, Jon warging Ghost, and Arya warging Nymeria and the Cat.

John will be stabbed in episode 9, atleast somone important will either die in the 8th og 9th episode. And ep. 10 will not deliver.

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This is the longest I have gone before writing a review from a weekly episode (other than a time I was on vacation during a season). Its hard to get into words without 1) sounding like I am a "book purist" (a terrible, misapplied term that's sort of akin to saying "You are such a 'music purist' in that you don't like it when people play out of tune or the 'wrong' notes.'"); 2) a person who just cannot be pleased or 3) a thin-skinned whine-bot.



But the show is bad. Not just this episode; the show is devolving as B&B run out of sourcve materials and try to advance the plot on their own. And they are bad at that.



Do I need to expound on this? Okay....



-Since last season, B&B made an unpardonable sin: they began believing their own press. GoT was working as a show NOT because of Martin's books or the richness of the source material; no. B&B started to think it was because of them. This in SPITE of the fact that the show's two most memorable episodes- Blackwater and the Reigns of Castemere were almost a word-for-word translation of Martin's books; and that some of the most famous episodes after those were also very close to the source material (Mountain and the Viper; Baelor; etc). And that the show's biggest sins were when B&B thought they could do it alone. (case in point- the utter failure of Jon Snow at Craster's Keep- a nonsensical scene that nearly imploded the show)



-Since Tywin's death- so all of season 5 - we have been treated to terribly paced episodes that have so little in the way of sense, cohesion, plot etc. Its a completely bas-ackwards development system that puts the plot LAST and story convenience front and center. We need more Jon Snow; the fans like Jon Snow.... so HERE'S JON SNOW!!!! Ah... Well, what's he doing? WHO CARES!!! Tyrion, we need more Tyrion. The fans like Tyrion. What's he doing? NO IDEA!!! Arya; we need more Arya.... etc etc etc



-Take for example Brienne. First of all, where is she? How come? She is following Sansa; why? Sansa has said she does not want to be with Brienne. Wouldn't that get Brienne to stop? How come Brinne is still following her? How come Breinne demanded to confront Sansa- wanted for regicide, mind you - and demanded Sansa leave with her? Did that make any sense? In a crowded tavern? Why is Jon going beyond the Wall? Who would do that? Why now? Isn't he needed ON the Wall? Does this make any sense? How come LF has picked the most ridiculously convoluted plot to divide the realm? I know that we are supposed to think that he is 2-3 moves ahead, but I get the feeling LF is simply smart because the writers want him t be that way so they always write everyone to do EXACTLY what will help LF. Because reasons.



-And then there is the torture porn. Dance with Dragons is not a strong book. But Martin knew less was more in the Theon story-line; keeping Theon unseen for 2 books before unleashing "Reek" on us. Martin didn't want 6 chapters dedicated to how abused Theon is; that would be depressing, sadistic, cruel and probably boring. SO Martin- brilliantly -allowed our minds to race when thinking about Theon as he transforms into Reek; that his demise must be so hideous and awful that even Reek himself has warped rather than remember it; that it is so terrible that even his mind only recalls it in dribs and drabs. And that by keeping it mostly hidden, our own imaginations can fill in the gaps pretty well;



If somebody were to say to us that we could not imagine the depravity Reek had to endure, the reader can turn to his accuser and say, like Han Solo,, "I don't know; I can imagine quite a bit."



But the show-runners- oh hell no. No. Now we need to show every harm, every cut, every sexualized torture; especially the sex torture. Can't have good torture without that!!! And we must detail it all week in and week out. Because the viewer... is stupid. So, so stupid. The viewer may not know that Reek has been tortured; the viewer has to be spoon-fed the plot and what's going on, otherwise he will be confused and may watch another show... like Grey's Anatomy. So, we have to show him everything. Because... torture porn.



-And that leaves the rape.



This past week was not some sudden storm of depravity and awfulness, but the culmination of B&B's completely horrible and corrupted view of these works. It is the T-H-I-R-D time B&B have inserted rape into the shows where there was not one to begin with.



The first was Dany's wedding night. In the books, its a very tender scene were Drogo is showing the limits of his understanding while at the same time trying- ever so slowly - to make Dany as comfortable as possible; the constant "No's" that direct Drogo and the reader through Dany's consciousness and timidity before finally delivering both characters- seamlessly- to each other in mutual affection, understanding and passion.



In the show, Drogo rapes Dany because, reasons. There is nothing resembling the scene in the books; just a brutal rape that sees a woman crying the whole time.



The second was, possibly, the worst scene in the show's history when Jaime rapes Cersei in the sept. In the books, its a highly emotional scene where the two characters are reunited after about a year and in the books, its clearly and unambiguously a mutual sexual act filled with horrifying imagery and lustful indiscretions.



In the show, Jaime rapes Cersei, because, reasons. Actually, according to B&B it WAS NOT a rape, then it WAS a rape. Hooray!!!!! Let's completely destroy the most compelling redemption arc in sci-fi fantasy history BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT RAPE IS!!!! Had we known, we never ever ever would have put Jaime in that position, but as show-runners we don't know what's going on!



The third was Sunday night where Ramsey rapes Sansa. IN the books, Sansa isn't even in WF; she is miles away. In the books, Jayne Poole- fake Arya- is terrified of the entire ordeal (as she should be); yes, terrible things happen to her and its terrible, but, again, the reader does not see much of it; its only heavily implied. We don't need to see it to know what is transpiring because, like Han Solo... we can imagine quite a bit.



In the show, Ramsey rapes Sansa, because reasons. Its a terrible scene that the viewer did not need to see as the viewer could have seen Sansa wake up in the morning nude and uncomfortable to know that Ramsey had been at work. No need to show us rape. But ... but they can't help themselves at this point because awful art is awful.



This does not even include the other scenes of untold sexual depravity untouched in the books; the scene were Joff forces Roz to beat up the other prostitute; the extreme nature of the FIRST time Sansa was almost raped in the King's Landing; the extremely long-stretches of rape at Craster's (when in the book, the scene is suddenly violent and over quickly); and on and on and on. This is not to say the books are fine or "G-level" violence; quiet the opposite: Martin graphically describes rape and its horrifying effects. But in the books, Martin uses the horror of Rape carefully and rationally (as in he "rations" it out); he applies it also to women AND men and does not use it for the shock-value of B&B. Because Martin is an actual artist who understands his craft. B&B are looking more and more like they know less and less.



Then add in the fact that some of the show... makes NO SENSE AT ALL. This week had a CLASSIC scene in the "This-Makes-No-Fucking-Sense" department. Jaime sneaking into Dorne is, HANDS DOWN - the dumbest plot devise the show has EVER had . WHY IS JAIME SNEAKING INTO DORNE???? Nobody has come close to explaining why. But fine. Whatever. Now you have Obarra and the Sand Snakes- a reasonably well-done plot devise in the books... is utterly vapid in the show. Yes... lets spring into action ... now! Why??? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS! We just so happen to want to kill the KIng's sister ... now? Or was it because Jaime and Bronn entered the city? Didn't you assume you would be stopped? What was the point?



Because Fire and Blood? Yeah, see, that only works if Quentin is still around. And he DOES NOT EXIST IN THE SHOW! So... why... again?



Now, add in the fact that we are now half-way through the season and virtually nothing has happened. But worse, the show cannot seem to use the tools it still has. A solid argument can be made that some of the decline in show quality (and in book quality) has been the loss of major characters- Robert, Ned, Tywin, Viserys, Ygritte, Robb, Joff, Renly, etc etc etc - that the deaths make it harder and harder for the viewer/reader to appreciate the story without characters we know and like. Fair. But in the books, at the very least, Martin tries to get his reader invested in other characters who can carry the burden. The show's response to this issue? KILL MORE CHARACTERS! Gren, Pyp, all of Dany's hand-maidens, and so on.



But two deaths stand out for their utter stupidity, both happened this season: The first is Mance. Mance was introduced IN SEASON TWO! According to IMDB he was in 5 episodes. FIVE! Ros was in 14. Mance was utterly unimportant in the show because B&B had no idea how to use him, how he helped the story, or what he could do. BUT they knew that by killing a character you create "buzz" so.... BAM! Dead. Second, Barristan Selmy. He starts off in KL then goes a continent away to advsie Dany to... what again? No matter. He is her sworn sword who ... does... nothing. BUT he finally, at long last has his stunt double kicks some ass and then ... is promptly killed. Why? What was the point of his character? Why were we invested in him? I mean, sure, he wasn't a eunuch who falls in love with the only non-Queen female character in like 1000 miles, but he was KG; he was head of the QG; he knew Rhyeagar; he knew Aerys. He could have shone some light on this .... OH NEVER MIND! Just kill him because WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEVELOP A STORY OTHERWISE!!!




And that's the show right now- they don't know how to move the story without doing terrible things; killing men and raping women. Is that harsh of me? Find me a compelling part of the story that is not driven by one of those elements; go ahead.



The show is getting REALLY bad right now and its because Martin KNEW what he was doing and it wasn't this; and the show runners don't know what they are doing and it IS this.


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This is the longest I have gone before writing a review from a weekly episode (other than a time I was on vacation during a season). Its hard to get into words without 1) sounding like I am a "book purist" (a terrible, misapplied term that's sort of akin to saying "You are such a 'music purist' in that you don't like it when people play out of tune or the 'wrong' notes.'"); 2) a person who just cannot be pleased or 3) a thin-skinned whine-bot.

But the show is bad. Not just this episode; the show is devolving as B&B run out of sourcve materials and try to advance the plot on their own. And they are bad at that.

Do I need to expound on this? Okay....

-Since last season, B&B made an unpardonable sin: they began believing their own press. GoT was working as a show NOT because of Martin's books or the richness of the source material; no. B&B started to think it was because of them. This in SPITE of the fact that the show's two most memorable episodes- Blackwater and the Reigns of Castemere were almost a word-for-word translation of Martin's books; and that some of the most famous episodes after those were also very close to the source material (Mountain and the Viper; Baelor; etc). And that the show's biggest sins were when B&B thought they could do it alone. (case in point- the utter failure of Jon Snow at Craster's Keep- a nonsensical scene that nearly imploded the show)

-Since Tywin's death- so all of season 5 - we have been treated to terribly paced episodes that have so little in the way of sense, cohesion, plot etc. Its a completely bas-ackwards development system that puts the plot LAST and story convenience front and center. We need more Jon Snow; the fans like Jon Snow.... so HERE'S JON SNOW!!!! Ah... Well, what's he doing? WHO CARES!!! Tyrion, we need more Tyrion. The fans like Tyrion. What's he doing? NO IDEA!!! Arya; we need more Arya.... etc etc etc

-Take for example Brienne. First of all, where is she? How come? She is following Sansa; why? Sansa has said she does not want to be with Brienne. Wouldn't that get Brienne to stop? How come Brinne is still following her? How come Breinne demanded to confront Sansa- wanted for regicide, mind you - and demanded Sansa leave with her? Did that make any sense? In a crowded tavern? Why is Jon going beyond the Wall? Who would do that? Why now? Isn't he needed ON the Wall? Does this make any sense? How come LF has picked the most ridiculously convoluted plot to divide the realm? I know that we are supposed to think that he is 2-3 moves ahead, but I get the feeling LF is simply smart because the writers want him t be that way so they always write everyone to do EXACTLY what will help LF. Because reasons.

-And then there is the torture porn. Dance with Dragons is not a strong book. But Martin knew less was more in the Theon story-line; keeping Theon unseen for 2 books before unleashing "Reek" on us. Martin didn't want 6 chapters dedicated to how abused Theon is; that would be depressing, sadistic, cruel and probably boring. SO Martin- brilliantly -allowed our minds to race when thinking about Theon as he transforms into Reek; that his demise must be so hideous and awful that even Reek himself has warped rather than remember it; that it is so terrible that even his mind only recalls it in dribs and drabs. And that by keeping it mostly hidden, our own imaginations can fill in the gaps pretty well;

If somebody were to say to us that we could not imagine the depravity Reek had to endure, the reader can turn to his accuser and say, like Han Solo,, "I don't know; I can imagine quite a bit."

But the show-runners- oh hell no. No. Now we need to show every harm, every cut, every sexualized torture; especially the sex torture. Can't have good torture without that!!! And we must detail it all week in and week out. Because the viewer... is stupid. So, so stupid. The viewer may not know that Reek has been tortured; the viewer has to be spoon-fed the plot and what's going on, otherwise he will be confused and may watch another show... like Grey's Anatomy. So, we have to show him everything. Because... torture porn.

-And that leaves the rape.

This past week was not some sudden storm of depravity and awfulness, but the culmination of B&B's completely horrible and corrupted view of these works. It is the T-H-I-R-D time B&B have inserted rape into the shows where there was not one to begin with.

The first was Dany's wedding night. In the books, its a very tender scene were Drogo is showing the limits of his understanding while at the same time trying- ever so slowly - to make Dany as comfortable as possible; the constant "No's" that direct Drogo and the reader through Dany's consciousness and timidity before finally delivering both characters- seamlessly- to each other in mutual affection, understanding and passion.

In the show, Drogo rapes Dany because, reasons. There is nothing resembling the scene in the books; just a brutal rape that sees a woman crying the whole time.

The second was, possibly, the worst scene in the show's history when Jaime rapes Cersei in the sept. In the books, its a highly emotional scene where the two characters are reunited after about a year and in the books, its clearly and unambiguously a mutual sexual act filled with horrifying imagery and lustful indiscretions.

In the show, Jaime rapes Cersei, because, reasons. Actually, according to B&B it WAS NOT a rape, then it WAS a rape. Hooray!!!!! Let's completely destroy the most compelling redemption arc in sci-fi fantasy history BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT RAPE IS!!!! Had we known, we never ever ever would have put Jaime in that position, but as show-runners we don't know what's going on!

The third was Sunday night where Ramsey rapes Sansa. IN the books, Sansa isn't even in WF; she is miles away. In the books, Jayne Poole- fake Arya- is terrified of the entire ordeal (as she should be); yes, terrible things happen to her and its terrible, but, again, the reader does not see much of it; its only heavily implied. We don't need to see it to know what is transpiring because, like Han Solo... we can imagine quite a bit.

In the show, Ramsey rapes Sansa, because reasons. Its a terrible scene that the viewer did not need to see as the viewer could have seen Sansa wake up in the morning nude and uncomfortable to know that Ramsey had been at work. No need to show us rape. But ... but they can't help themselves at this point because awful art is awful.

This does not even include the other scenes of untold sexual depravity untouched in the books; the scene were Joff forces Roz to beat up the other prostitute; the extreme nature of the FIRST time Sansa was almost raped in the King's Landing; the extremely long-stretches of rape at Craster's (when in the book, the scene is suddenly violent and over quickly); and on and on and on. This is not to say the books are fine or "G-level" violence; quiet the opposite: Martin graphically describes rape and its horrifying effects. But in the books, Martin uses the horror of Rape carefully and rationally (as in he "rations" it out); he applies it also to women AND men and does not use it for the shock-value of B&B. Because Martin is an actual artist who understands his craft. B&B are looking more and more like they know less and less.

Then add in the fact that some of the show... makes NO SENSE AT ALL. This week had a CLASSIC scene in the "This-Makes-No-Fucking-Sense" department. Jaime sneaking into Dorne is, HANDS DOWN - the dumbest plot devise the show has EVER had . WHY IS JAIME SNEAKING INTO DORNE???? Nobody has come close to explaining why. But fine. Whatever. Now you have Obarra and the Sand Snakes- a reasonably well-done plot devise in the books... is utterly vapid in the show. Yes... lets spring into action ... now! Why??? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS! We just so happen to want to kill the KIng's sister ... now? Or was it because Jaime and Bronn entered the city? Didn't you assume you would be stopped? What was the point?

Because Fire and Blood? Yeah, see, that only works if Quentin is still around. And he DOES NOT EXIST IN THE SHOW! So... why... again?

Now, add in the fact that we are now half-way through the season and virtually nothing has happened. But worse, the show cannot seem to use the tools it still has. A solid argument can be made that some of the decline in show quality (and in book quality) has been the loss of major characters- Robert, Ned, Tywin, Viserys, Ygritte, Robb, Joff, Renly, etc etc etc - that the deaths make it harder and harder for the viewer/reader to appreciate the story without characters we know and like. Fair. But in the books, at the very least, Martin tries to get his reader invested in other characters who can carry the burden. The show's response to this issue? KILL MORE CHARACTERS! Gren, Pyp, all of Dany's hand-maidens, and so on.

But two deaths stand out for their utter stupidity, both happened this season: The first is Mance. Mance was introduced IN SEASON TWO! According to IMDB he was in 5 episodes. FIVE! Ros was in 14. Mance was utterly unimportant in the show because B&B had no idea how to use him, how he helped the story, or what he could do. BUT they knew that by killing a character you create "buzz" so.... BAM! Dead. Second, Barristan Selmy. He starts off in KL then goes a continent away to advsie Dany to... what again? No matter. He is her sworn sword who ... does... nothing. BUT he finally, at long last has his stunt double kicks some ass and then ... is promptly killed. Why? What was the point of his character? Why were we invested in him? I mean, sure, he wasn't a eunuch who falls in love with the only non-Queen female character in like 1000 miles, but he was KG; he was head of the QG; he knew Rhyeagar; he knew Aerys. He could have shone some light on this .... OH NEVER MIND! Just kill him because WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEVELOP A STORY OTHERWISE!!!

And that's the show right now- they don't know how to move the story without doing terrible things; killing men and raping women. Is that harsh of me? Find me a compelling part of the story that is not driven by one of those elements; go ahead.

The show is getting REALLY bad right now and its because Martin KNEW what he was doing and it wasn't this; and the show runners don't know what they are doing and it IS this.

Agreed. :bowdown:

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This is the longest I have gone before writing a review from a weekly episode (other than a time I was on vacation during a season). Its hard to get into words without 1) sounding like I am a "book purist" (a terrible, misapplied term that's sort of akin to saying "You are such a 'music purist' in that you don't like it when people play out of tune or the 'wrong' notes.'"); 2) a person who just cannot be pleased or 3) a thin-skinned whine-bot.

But the show is bad. Not just this episode; the show is devolving as B&B run out of sourcve materials and try to advance the plot on their own. And they are bad at that.

Do I need to expound on this? Okay....

-Since last season, B&B made an unpardonable sin: they began believing their own press. GoT was working as a show NOT because of Martin's books or the richness of the source material; no. B&B started to think it was because of them. This in SPITE of the fact that the show's two most memorable episodes- Blackwater and the Reigns of Castemere were almost a word-for-word translation of Martin's books; and that some of the most famous episodes after those were also very close to the source material (Mountain and the Viper; Baelor; etc). And that the show's biggest sins were when B&B thought they could do it alone. (case in point- the utter failure of Jon Snow at Craster's Keep- a nonsensical scene that nearly imploded the show)

-Since Tywin's death- so all of season 5 - we have been treated to terribly paced episodes that have so little in the way of sense, cohesion, plot etc. Its a completely bas-ackwards development system that puts the plot LAST and story convenience front and center. We need more Jon Snow; the fans like Jon Snow.... so HERE'S JON SNOW!!!! Ah... Well, what's he doing? WHO CARES!!! Tyrion, we need more Tyrion. The fans like Tyrion. What's he doing? NO IDEA!!! Arya; we need more Arya.... etc etc etc

-Take for example Brienne. First of all, where is she? How come? She is following Sansa; why? Sansa has said she does not want to be with Brienne. Wouldn't that get Brienne to stop? How come Brinne is still following her? How come Breinne demanded to confront Sansa- wanted for regicide, mind you - and demanded Sansa leave with her? Did that make any sense? In a crowded tavern? Why is Jon going beyond the Wall? Who would do that? Why now? Isn't he needed ON the Wall? Does this make any sense? How come LF has picked the most ridiculously convoluted plot to divide the realm? I know that we are supposed to think that he is 2-3 moves ahead, but I get the feeling LF is simply smart because the writers want him t be that way so they always write everyone to do EXACTLY what will help LF. Because reasons.

-And then there is the torture porn. Dance with Dragons is not a strong book. But Martin knew less was more in the Theon story-line; keeping Theon unseen for 2 books before unleashing "Reek" on us. Martin didn't want 6 chapters dedicated to how abused Theon is; that would be depressing, sadistic, cruel and probably boring. SO Martin- brilliantly -allowed our minds to race when thinking about Theon as he transforms into Reek; that his demise must be so hideous and awful that even Reek himself has warped rather than remember it; that it is so terrible that even his mind only recalls it in dribs and drabs. And that by keeping it mostly hidden, our own imaginations can fill in the gaps pretty well;

If somebody were to say to us that we could not imagine the depravity Reek had to endure, the reader can turn to his accuser and say, like Han Solo,, "I don't know; I can imagine quite a bit."

But the show-runners- oh hell no. No. Now we need to show every harm, every cut, every sexualized torture; especially the sex torture. Can't have good torture without that!!! And we must detail it all week in and week out. Because the viewer... is stupid. So, so stupid. The viewer may not know that Reek has been tortured; the viewer has to be spoon-fed the plot and what's going on, otherwise he will be confused and may watch another show... like Grey's Anatomy. So, we have to show him everything. Because... torture porn.

-And that leaves the rape.

This past week was not some sudden storm of depravity and awfulness, but the culmination of B&B's completely horrible and corrupted view of these works. It is the T-H-I-R-D time B&B have inserted rape into the shows where there was not one to begin with.

The first was Dany's wedding night. In the books, its a very tender scene were Drogo is showing the limits of his understanding while at the same time trying- ever so slowly - to make Dany as comfortable as possible; the constant "No's" that direct Drogo and the reader through Dany's consciousness and timidity before finally delivering both characters- seamlessly- to each other in mutual affection, understanding and passion.

In the show, Drogo rapes Dany because, reasons. There is nothing resembling the scene in the books; just a brutal rape that sees a woman crying the whole time.

The second was, possibly, the worst scene in the show's history when Jaime rapes Cersei in the sept. In the books, its a highly emotional scene where the two characters are reunited after about a year and in the books, its clearly and unambiguously a mutual sexual act filled with horrifying imagery and lustful indiscretions.

In the show, Jaime rapes Cersei, because, reasons. Actually, according to B&B it WAS NOT a rape, then it WAS a rape. Hooray!!!!! Let's completely destroy the most compelling redemption arc in sci-fi fantasy history BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT RAPE IS!!!! Had we known, we never ever ever would have put Jaime in that position, but as show-runners we don't know what's going on!

The third was Sunday night where Ramsey rapes Sansa. IN the books, Sansa isn't even in WF; she is miles away. In the books, Jayne Poole- fake Arya- is terrified of the entire ordeal (as she should be); yes, terrible things happen to her and its terrible, but, again, the reader does not see much of it; its only heavily implied. We don't need to see it to know what is transpiring because, like Han Solo... we can imagine quite a bit.

In the show, Ramsey rapes Sansa, because reasons. Its a terrible scene that the viewer did not need to see as the viewer could have seen Sansa wake up in the morning nude and uncomfortable to know that Ramsey had been at work. No need to show us rape. But ... but they can't help themselves at this point because awful art is awful.

This does not even include the other scenes of untold sexual depravity untouched in the books; the scene were Joff forces Roz to beat up the other prostitute; the extreme nature of the FIRST time Sansa was almost raped in the King's Landing; the extremely long-stretches of rape at Craster's (when in the book, the scene is suddenly violent and over quickly); and on and on and on. This is not to say the books are fine or "G-level" violence; quiet the opposite: Martin graphically describes rape and its horrifying effects. But in the books, Martin uses the horror of Rape carefully and rationally (as in he "rations" it out); he applies it also to women AND men and does not use it for the shock-value of B&B. Because Martin is an actual artist who understands his craft. B&B are looking more and more like they know less and less.

Then add in the fact that some of the show... makes NO SENSE AT ALL. This week had a CLASSIC scene in the "This-Makes-No-Fucking-Sense" department. Jaime sneaking into Dorne is, HANDS DOWN - the dumbest plot devise the show has EVER had . WHY IS JAIME SNEAKING INTO DORNE???? Nobody has come close to explaining why. But fine. Whatever. Now you have Obarra and the Sand Snakes- a reasonably well-done plot devise in the books... is utterly vapid in the show. Yes... lets spring into action ... now! Why??? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS! We just so happen to want to kill the KIng's sister ... now? Or was it because Jaime and Bronn entered the city? Didn't you assume you would be stopped? What was the point?

Because Fire and Blood? Yeah, see, that only works if Quentin is still around. And he DOES NOT EXIST IN THE SHOW! So... why... again?

Now, add in the fact that we are now half-way through the season and virtually nothing has happened. But worse, the show cannot seem to use the tools it still has. A solid argument can be made that some of the decline in show quality (and in book quality) has been the loss of major characters- Robert, Ned, Tywin, Viserys, Ygritte, Robb, Joff, Renly, etc etc etc - that the deaths make it harder and harder for the viewer/reader to appreciate the story without characters we know and like. Fair. But in the books, at the very least, Martin tries to get his reader invested in other characters who can carry the burden. The show's response to this issue? KILL MORE CHARACTERS! Gren, Pyp, all of Dany's hand-maidens, and so on.

But two deaths stand out for their utter stupidity, both happened this season: The first is Mance. Mance was introduced IN SEASON TWO! According to IMDB he was in 5 episodes. FIVE! Ros was in 14. Mance was utterly unimportant in the show because B&B had no idea how to use him, how he helped the story, or what he could do. BUT they knew that by killing a character you create "buzz" so.... BAM! Dead. Second, Barristan Selmy. He starts off in KL then goes a continent away to advsie Dany to... what again? No matter. He is her sworn sword who ... does... nothing. BUT he finally, at long last has his stunt double kicks some ass and then ... is promptly killed. Why? What was the point of his character? Why were we invested in him? I mean, sure, he wasn't a eunuch who falls in love with the only non-Queen female character in like 1000 miles, but he was KG; he was head of the QG; he knew Rhyeagar; he knew Aerys. He could have shone some light on this .... OH NEVER MIND! Just kill him because WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEVELOP A STORY OTHERWISE!!!

And that's the show right now- they don't know how to move the story without doing terrible things; killing men and raping women. Is that harsh of me? Find me a compelling part of the story that is not driven by one of those elements; go ahead.

The show is getting REALLY bad right now and its because Martin KNEW what he was doing and it wasn't this; and the show runners don't know what they are doing and it IS this.

I see these types of posts a lot and it's unfortunate. Your problem here is a combination of ignorance of tv producing and blind fandom of the books. It's apparent that you haven't the slightest inkling on what it takes to produce a tv series, let alone one of this magnitude. Either that or you're such a fanboy you choose to ignore the fact that the show is a television production.

Just one example

"Jaime sneaking into Dorne is, HANDS DOWN - the dumbest plot devise the show has EVER had . WHY IS JAIME SNEAKING INTO DORNE???? Nobody has come close to explaining why"

They could not have been more clear why he is sneaking in. They have said it 3 times from 3 different characters. Cersei is afraid that the Martell's will hurt Myrcella in retaliation to Oberyn's death. But you knew that. It's a deviation from the book though, so automatically 'it's the stupidest thing ever!!!!!! I hate you D&D!!!!'

Please. It's embarrassing. They already have the biggest cast on TV. Think about that. Out of every single show on television, they have the biggest cast. They have 10 hours a season to fit all of these characters in. They need to find ways to include everyone or just cut them out completely. There choice was probably completely cut out the entire Dorne/sand snakes storyline and just show Jaime sitting around in Riverrun doing nothing or combine the two. With Jaime heading to Dorne, you now include him, Bronn, all of the Martells, and the sand snakes. People might think so far this isn't compelling, but it's a hell of a lot better than cutting the Dorne storyline and just showing Jaime wait outside of Riverrun feeling sorry for himself. This probably a very dumbed down example of their logic. For a huge casted TV series, it makes a good deal of sense, as does most of the other 'changes' they've made. Unfortunately, people choose not to apply logic to this show for some reason, though.

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