[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

[Arya442]

I haven't commented on the show this season because it was as I said in the trailer thread, as the show goes further away from the book, it will be the worst season because the show runners aren't good enough. While, I will keep watching and it is certainly not unwatchable, the show doesn't excite me.

However, this controversial episode is one of the better episodes of this season even if I am not sure how good it is and that is due to the final scene and the winterfell setting. I found Jeyne's and Theon's suffering in the books to be riveting and engaging stuff and emotionally affecting, and the same here with Theon and Sansa. Theon's actor in particular is doing a very good job. One of the few times in this season where I actually gave a damn and felt somewhat emotionally invested. Theon is probably the best character of the show right now and the one with the more interesting and less butchered from the books character arc.

Funny, I found it to be pointlessly gratuitous even in the book. What, you needed to show us that Ramsay is a sick creep, we already knew that. And the only way that you could think of to have Theon snap out of it was to have a female character be horribly violated, really freaking original. And the show has merely made it worse. I cannot find this "compelling" because I'm a SO SICK and tired of this overused cliché/trope. It shows an astounding lack of creativity, which is made all the more obvious because the keep doing it.

[Lovely Lyanna]

clash of clans ;)

i assume noone is refering to FM, ok she is not ready to become one YET but who is that someone who she is ready to become?

I think she will become the girl in pain that she killed earlier in the episode with the water from the fountain. I only say this because in the pictures that were released with Arya's new look she had the same hairstyle with those little whimsical buns on the side. They looked similar enough that they can change the look without changing the actress.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Funny, I found it to be pointlessly gratuitous even in the book. What, you needed to show us that Ramsay is a sick creep, we already knew that. And the only way that you could think of to have Theon snap out of it was to have a female character be horribly violated, really freaking original. And the show has merely made it worse. I cannot find this "compelling" because I'm a SO SICK and tired of this overused cliché/trope. It shows an astounding lack of creativity, which is made all the more obvious because the keep doing it.

Fix your quote.

I am happy that I am not sick and tired of fictional suffering of characters with female genitalia making me emotionally invested and angry at the villains instead of angry at the writter.

Theon is widely considered to have one of the best character arcs in the books, including him snapping out of it in part due to Jeyne's suffering, and again as with Jeyne's I found his personal struggle, drama, and suffering to be compelling. The show especially later on, is at best a poor imitation to the books, even when focusing on one of the better arcs of the fifth book, Theon's. But that is still one of the more interesting parts of this season.

I doubt I would like these books so much without the tragedy in them that entails horrible things happening to good and gray people. And I found Ramsay to be a more compelling villain for how excessive his actions were. So I found the gratuity with Ramsay to be part of the point. It didn't work for you, but it did work for me. the trope of character suffering for compelling stories has been part of some of my favorite stories and character arcs.

I am not sorry or particularly care that you are sick and tired of it, but I certainly respect the right for your opinion. But is nothing but that. The fact that you or even others, don't like something doesn't mean that I have to agree. So at this point, I think it is productive for everyone to share their different opinion on this and understand that the views of others will vary.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes. Arya was never beaten for her misbehaving because she realized that the FM raise their hands only for killing. When the KM beat her while she was blind, it was meant to improve her senses. One can argue that Jaqen's beating upon her lies can be more or less the same thing but it looked more like Arya was being punished, not trained.

In ADWD something similar happened. I'd have to recheck if it the same thing was in AFFC too.

"Why are here, liar?" "To serve. To learn. To change my face." "First change your heart. The gift of the Many-Faced God is not a child's plaything. You would kill for your own purposes, for your own pleasures. Do you deny it?" She bit her lip. "I-" He slapped her.

[Mithras]

In ADWD something similar happened. I'd have to recheck if it the same thing was in AFFC too.

Hmm yeah. But even Arya herself thought that she should stop that stupid lip bitting habit of hers :)

In AFfC, the KM was trying to catch her unawares while hitting her with his stick and faking a different voice.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Mithras

[Arya442]

Fix your quote.

I am happy that I am not sick and tired of fictional suffering of characters with female genitalia making me emotionally invested and angry at the villains instead of angry at the writter.

Theon is widely considered to have one of the best character arcs in the books, including him snapping out of it in part due to Jeyne's suffering, and again as with Jeyne's I found his personal struggle, drama, and suffering to be compelling. The show especially later on, is at best a poor imitation to the books, even when focusing on one of the better arcs of the fifth book, Theon's. But that is still one of the more interesting parts of this season.

I doubt I would like these books so much without the tragedy in them that entails horrible things happening to good and gray people. And I found Ramsay to be a more compelling villain for how excessive his actions were. So I found the gratuity with Ramsay to be part of the point. It didn't work for you, but it did work for me. the trope of character suffering for compelling stories has been part of some of my favorite stories and character arcs.

I am not sorry or particularly care that you are sick and tired of it, but I certainly respect the right for your opinion. But is nothing but that. The fact that you or even others, don't like something doesn't mean that I have to agree. So at this point, I think it is productive for everyone to share their different opinion on this and understand that the views of others will vary.

Hey if you enjoy it, more power to you. I'm not saying that you cannot, nor do I mind at all that you do. And no, I don't have a problem with suffering or cruelty in fiction, far from it. I don't even have a problem with quite a bit of it on this show. BUT, that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING that they do will automatically work. "Dark" isn't automatically "good" just because it's "dark." I hate the idea that "lets rape/violate a female character" is the only way that they can think of to "further" Theon's story. There's PLENTY of other stuff that he's seen/endured that could have easily done that, without resorting to this tired/overused plot device. And it reduces the actual victim to merely being a prop in someone else's story, which is even more problematic.

[sonsastronk]

Hmm yeah. But even Arya herself thought that she should stop that stupid lip bitting habit of hers :)

In AFfC, the KM was trying to catch her unawares while hitting her with his stick and faking a different voice.

Arya does a lot of stupid things. It comes with the character.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Hey if you enjoy it, more power to you. I'm not saying that you cannot, nor do I mind at all that you do. And no, I don't have a problem with suffering or cruelty in fiction, far from it. I don't even have a problem with quite a bit of it on this show. BUT, that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING that they do will automatically work. "Dark" isn't automatically "good" just because it's "dark." I hate the idea that "lets rape/violate a female character" is the only way that they can think of to "further" Theon's story. There's PLENTY of other stuff that he's seen/endured that could have easily done that, without resorting to this tired/overused plot device. And it reduces the actual victim to merely being a prop in someone else's story, which is even more problematic.

Well it is in the books with Jeyne Poole, I don't trust them (or really most anyone) to make a better job and come with something more compelling for Theon over GRRM even if there are possible alternatives. Dark doesn't necessarily mean good but it worked as far as I am concerned. But yeah, it didn't have to be Sansa.

I don't think Sansa here or Jeyne in the book is merely a victim in someone else's story though. Both are victims in their own right and their own suffering matters.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I fear you are right, but I do believe that viewers and critics can influence the show. Not this season obviously, but some good old mud slinging and rotten tomatoes throwing may force HBO CEOs if not the Mad King/Euron Greyjoy duo, to rethink their strategy for the next season - like hiring real writers for a change. I do pity the actors. They are excellent. They are trying hard (most of them anyway), but it is obvious that they gave up on script as well. Iain Glenn was the best in this episode when he had zero words to say. That speaks volumes. Also, actors are more and more engaged on other projects. The whole thing is slowly falling apart. Just compare Tywin skinning a deer in season 1 with "can you find fat Valda's fanny" dialogue this season. Pathetic.

It's amazing, and not a coincidence, that my three favorite scenes so far this season were silent. Arya........silently and touchingly holding Needle (without conveying any of D&D's stupid REVENGEisms from the adjoining Inside the Episode segment), Jaime with the quiet Tarth Gaze, especially at the mention of The Sapphire Isle, and this episode with Jorah quietly contemplating his father and learning of his death. It says a lot about how great the actors really can be and how far the quality of writing has fallen that silent scenes, three of them now, tend to be the most powerful. Love your comparative dialogue at the end there.

[Juan_Snow]

I see these types of posts a lot and it's unfortunate. Your problem here is a combination of ignorance of tv producing and blind fandom of the books. It's apparent that you haven't the slightest inkling on what it takes to produce a tv series, let alone one of this magnitude. Either that or you're such a fanboy you choose to ignore the fact that the show is a television production.

Just one example

"Jaime sneaking into Dorne is, HANDS DOWN - the dumbest plot devise the show has EVER had . WHY IS JAIME SNEAKING INTO DORNE???? Nobody has come close to explaining why"

They could not have been more clear why he is sneaking in. They have said it 3 times from 3 different characters. Cersei is afraid that the Martell's will hurt Myrcella in retaliation to Oberyn's death. But you knew that. It's a deviation from the book though, so automatically 'it's the stupidest thing ever!!!!!! I hate you D&D!!!!'

Please. It's embarrassing. They already have the biggest cast on TV. Think about that. Out of every single show on television, they have the biggest cast. They have 10 hours a season to fit all of these characters in. They need to find ways to include everyone or just cut them out completely. There choice was probably completely cut out the entire Dorne/sand snakes storyline and just show Jaime sitting around in Riverrun doing nothing or combine the two. With Jaime heading to Dorne, you now include him, Bronn, all of the Martells, and the sand snakes. People might think so far this isn't compelling, but it's a hell of a lot better than cutting the Dorne storyline and just showing Jaime wait outside of Riverrun feeling sorry for himself. This probably a very dumbed down example of their logic. For a huge casted TV series, it makes a good deal of sense, as does most of the other 'changes' they've made. Unfortunately, people choose not to apply logic to this show for some reason, though.

I applaud your effort to reason with the unreasonable. We both know it will fall on deaf ears though.

[Rockroi]

I see these types of posts a lot and it's unfortunate. Your problem here is a combination of ignorance of tv producing It's apparent that you haven't the slightest inkling on what it takes to produce a tv series, let alone one of this magnitude.

Why, gee, thank you Matthew Weiner; please enlighten me on all your success on television production! You must have worked in the business FOR YEARS! Or… you like to read the Inter-webs!

… blind fandom of the books…. Either that or you're such a fanboy you choose to ignore the fact that the show is a television production

.

I see this excuse “a lot and its unfortunate.” (SEE? I can be condescending too!). It demands that I ignore bad story-telling under the guise of the limits of television production. And that’s “embarrassing” (THIS IS FUN!). Because basically its asking me to ignore the good story we already have as we watch a bad story.

(also, I am no book purist; I am as critical as anybody of Martin's books; they are not perfect AND the show has, from time-to-time, added in a variety of features that are BETTER than the books, most notably Robert, Viserys, Tywin at Harrenhal with Arya, and a few other well done moments). Look, sport, I know it’s a TV show and shows are expensive; I know that choices have to be made and those choices are not easy. The problem is that D&D are now paving their own road; they are no longer in the business of choosing which part of Martin’s story to tell; they are now in the business of telling their own. And … here’s a hint: it sucks. Need proof?

Look at the “How would you rate this episode” threads on each episode comparing Season 4 to Season 5 (btw- Season 4 was NOT that good of a season. And this message board is known for (*ahem*) “support” for the show.

Here are the # of 1-3 star ratings from Season 4 by episode:

E1 7,

E2 9,

E3 39 (*Jaime rapes Cersei) ,

E4 45 (show does not address Jaime raping Cersie)

E5 16,

E6 10,

E7 11,

E8 33,

E9 59,

E10 103

That’s 332 ratings of 1,2 or 3 for THE ENTIRE SEASON 4.

Now… Season 5:

E1 35

E2 35

E3 25

E4 54

E5 51

E6 200

That’s FOUR HUNDRED VOTES (+68 over the prior season) of a 1,2 or 3 … AND WE ARE ONLY 6 EPISODES IN!

And what do these seasons have in common? Oh, rape THAT’S RIGHT!

And that has nothing to do with cast size (stop introducing new characters; concentrate on the ones you have); has nothing to do with costs; has NOTHING to do with the source material. It has everything to do with this show going off the rails; the show-runners don't know how to tell this story without the "Copy/Paste" form of story-telling. They are lost without the foundation, source material. When they deviate... they are lost.

Now, lets get to some more of your specific arguments:

They could not have been more clear (sic) why (Jaime) is sneaking in. They have said it 3 times from 3 different characters. Cersei is afraid that the Martell's will hurt Myrcella in retaliation to Oberyn's death. But you knew that. It's a deviation from the book though, so automatically 'it's the stupidest thing ever!!!!!! I hate you D&D!!!!'

Terrible logic. Why not ride in? Why not make your presence known IMMEDIATELY! Why not take a ship and get to the docks and say “Hey, hello! Coming to see my niece!” Its so Jaime can steal her back… a FUCKING TERRIBLE IDEA!

But … see… I can tell by reading your post that you don’t know much about TV production; and its sad, really (God, I shoul ddo this more often). So let me enlighten you. See, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau has something called an “agent” and a “publicist” and a “manager” and these people, see, give producers and show runners gobs of shit if their actor does not get X amount of screen time. So B&B have to have something for Jaime to do… so they invent this convoluted plot of him… getting … Bron (for some reason) and taking him to Dorne because in Dorne Myrcella could be killed… AT THE EXACT MOMENT JAIME GETS THERE!!!!! That could happen. Anyway, Jaime has to go because if he didn’t, angry actors get angry and makes show producers and HBO number-counters cry.

So, they need for him to go to Dorne and … rescue(?) Myrcella? Not clear. But he’s there because Cersei is nervous and that’s what we do… just like in the books… oh wait, no, nothing like that in the books, because that would have been terrible, uninteresting story-telling. But on TV? TA-DAH!!!! We need to do it! So forgive this terrible story because we HAD to tell you a terrible story! A terrible story is better than no story ... right?

There choice was probably completely cut out the entire Dorne/sand snakes storyline and just show Jaime sitting around in Riverrun doing nothing or combine the two.

Actually they did neither.

Btw, still not clear what the SandSnakes are for. Were they trying to kill Nyrcella at that moment? Why not just poison her? Or did their snake- senses tingle because... “WAIT!!!! I FEEL THE PRESENCE OF A LANNISTER!!!! TO THE SAND-SNAKE MOBILE!!!!”

With Jaime heading to Dorne, you now include him, Bronn, all of the Martells, and the sand snakes.

I know WHY They are doing it- to gather up a bunch of loose ideas and pretend there is a story there. But … there… isn’t. Sorry to ruin your day like that. This is why I said above that CONVENIENCE has taken the place over plot. Instead of having a reasonable story, plot and character motivations, you intead do this "Story by color-by-numbers" where you put in a story that fits the cast you have lying around. THAT. IS. BAD. STORYTELLING!!

But does any of this explain:

-Hey… remember Gendry? Remember the Brothers Without Banners? Rememeber how they are always loyal to each other … until that one time when a hot red-head comes out of the trees and has two sacks of money. Well… then… loyalty-shmoylty!

-Hey, remember that guy who came into Bran’s room and tried to kill him in Season 1? Hey, who … who sent him again? Its been … FIVE SEASONS!!! And we still don’t know. And in fact, nobody is asking. Because … because … (*sniffle*) storytelling … Is (*sniff*) hard… its so hard … you don’t know how hard it is!!!!!”

-Hey… remember that heart-breaking scene where Tyrion mentions how he was married and how it greatly impacted the way he lived? Wasn’t that important? NOPE!

-Hey remember that God Awful scene where Jon Snow took Caster’s keep, wasting time and story-telling capital that could have been used elsewhere – and had Jon and Bran almost meet? And had Bran – a noble, highborn child, his mute, giant bodyguard, and two highborn children with him captured … AND NONE OF THE WOMEN IN CRASTER’S KEEP MENTIONED THIS TO JON SNOW AFTER THE BATTLE!!!!! Like… no biggie!

I swear, this is just off the top of my head.

But you still have not responded to the central tenants of my complaint, namely, that the show has no story to tell; instead they are instigating reactions by killing characters for no reason and showing rape… For. No. Reason.

How does showing Sansa being brutally raped advance the story? How come because the “cast is soooooo large” that means you MUST rape another woman on the show?

Because bad reasons are bad.

[ARYa_Nym]

Hmm yeah. But even Arya herself thought that she should stop that stupid lip bitting habit of hers :)

In AFfC, the KM was trying to catch her unawares while hitting her with his stick and faking a different voice.

LOL, but she thinks almost everything is stupid. It's not much different than when Sansa failed to keep her mouth shut when Jon was brought up in the Vale.

[She-Ra Princess of Power]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents for what it's worth:

The city (HA!) of Dorne: At least what we can all agree on, from what I gather, is the Dorne storyline is pointless which is a shame. With all the sputterings of but "weeee only have 10 episodes to show stuff, so we have to cut, consolidate the story!" is moot when they make up these irrelevant story arcs. Seriously there was so much going on in the riverlands. Ok it was boring to some of you, well they could have spiced it up but kept some semblance of the original story alive.

Arya: Gosh, I liked seeing the HoBaW but gees get on with her story. Or at least explain what the heck is going on to the unsullied, because there seems to be much confusion and therefor lack of interest in her story. How many episodes do we need to see her cleaning the floors? This is where you appropriately hasten a characters story. One episode to explain the faceless men, give up her possessions then, bang off you go.... prove you want to be a FM by becoming cat of the canals or any of her other personas to see if she has potential. I would love to see her about in bravos. Oh, and how I wish Sam & Co were on their way, good stuff and it would alleviate her character being so isolated from the rest of the story. hmmm maybe next season.

KL: Sad really, would really just be reiterating other's sentiment. Why not stick with the original plot it was so good! Everything just, everything is wrong there.

Tyrion and Jorah: meh, get to Dany already. Even if you didn't like the Aegon twist, there was good storytelling and scenes in it. This is pointless wanderings that book haters (since you call us show haters) complain about that takes up more important time from other characters.

Winterfell: Oh how I dread this whole storyline. I don't care what all you book haters say, IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR HER TO BE THERE! Regardless of the books, it doesn't make sense for her to be there even in the TV world. But alas she's there. Tell me if i'm wrong, but what happens next? Her escape/rescue right? So unless she kills father and/or son before she flees to Stannis or winterfell what was the point of her marriage and subsequent rape? If she is just going to flee winterfell immediately how did she get her revenge by being there....when she should have just gone to Stannis or Jon or stayed in the Vale and gathered northern forces to take back her home. Also at this point they were trying to show that Sansa was becoming more empowered and not the naive, stupid little girl. Psssh, I don't care what anyone tells me. I'd be like, so they killed some of my family members and then stole my home and you want me to marry into their family. YOU F'ING OUT OF YOUR MIND! Uh yeah, let me hear plan B please.

[Arya442]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents for what it's worth:

The city (HA!) of Dorne: At least what we can all agree on, from what I gather, is the Dorne storyline is pointless which is a shame. With all the sputterings of but "weeee only have 10 episodes to show stuff, so we have to cut, consolidate the story!" is moot when they make up these irrelevant story arcs. Seriously there was so much going on in the riverlands. Ok it was boring to some of you, well they could have spiced it up but kept some semblance of the original story alive.

Arya: Gosh, I liked seeing the HoBaW but gees get on with her story. Or at least explain what the heck is going on to the unsullied, because there seems to be much confusion and therefor lack of interest in her story. How many episodes do we need to see her cleaning the floors? This is where you appropriately hasten a characters story. One episode to explain the faceless men, give up her possessions then, bang off you go.... prove you want to be a FM by becoming cat of the canals or any of her other personas to see if she has potential. I would love to see her about in bravos. Oh, and how I wish Sam & Co were on their way, good stuff and it would alleviate her character being so isolated from the rest of the story. hmmm maybe next season.

KL: Sad really, would really just be reiterating other's sentiment. Why not stick with the original plot it was so good! Everything just, everything is wrong there.

Tyrion and Jorah: meh, get to Dany already. Even if you didn't like the Aegon twist, there was good storytelling and scenes in it. This is pointless wanderings that book haters (since you call us show haters) complain about that takes up more important time from other characters.

Winterfell: Oh how I dread this whole storyline. I don't care what all you book haters say, IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR HER TO BE THERE! Regardless of the books, it doesn't make sense for her to be there even in the TV world. But alas she's there. Tell me if i'm wrong, but what happens next? Her escape/rescue right? So unless she kills father and/or son before she flees to Stannis or winterfell what was the point of her marriage and subsequent rape? If she is just going to flee winterfell immediately how did she get her revenge by being there....when she should have just gone to Stannis or Jon or stayed in the Vale and gathered northern forces to take back her home. Also at this point they were trying to show that Sansa was becoming more empowered and not the naive, stupid little girl. Psssh, I don't care what anyone tells me. I'd be like, so they killed some of my family members and then stole my home and you want me to marry into their family. YOU F'ING OUT OF YOUR MIND! Uh yeah, let me hear plan B please.

Oh I can tell you why she's there. D&D: "We needed to empower Sansa and give her more to do. So of course we used a rape, that works for character motivation right? Come on, why were you expecting us to do anything different for a change, writing is hard and this was the easiest way to do it?"

Edited May 19, 2015 by Arya442

[Sam with Hooters]

I haven't seen any indication that trials by combat are banned by the faith in the show, they certainly are not in-house the books...

Indeed, the whole POINT of trial by combat is that "the gods" render a judgement through it. Loras has nothing to lose by asking for one.

[Tanacetum Vulgare]

The show is getting REALLY bad right now and its because Martin KNEW what he was doing and it wasn't this; and the show runners don't know what they are doing and it IS this.

Agree with all of the above.

I cancelled my HBO subscription today. When the representative asked me why, I told her exactly why. 'nough said.

[obsessedwithjon]

I do not actually think the “bedding” scene with Ramsay was all that bad considering it is Ramsay. I was nearly sick when I first saw that Sansa would marry Ramsay, thinking of the wedding night with Jeyne. I’m not even sure Ramsay thinks he treated Sansa particularly badly, considering he’s a psychopath. I can see him thinking “I didn’t cut her or beat her. I was a good husband.” Besides, if Ramsay managed to “play a role” of loving husband for a night or a week, the book readers had to know something like this or worse was still coming. (I don't think that Sansa neccessarily should have expected it though, but neither did Jeyne.) Frankly, I was relieved that this scene was less elaborate or torturous than any direct application of a Jeyne scene. I feel that focusing on Theon’s face instead of a view of the bed, while being able to hear Sansa, was a good compromise. Face it, when the writers decided to have Sansa marry Ramsay, something like this was inevitable. The northerners need to perceive that Ned’s daughter (Jeyne-as-Arya/Sansa) is in need of rescuing for the rest of the plot to move forward. Plus, in the show, so much time has been spent portraying Ramsay as a psychopath, along the lines of Joffrey. Would viewers have expected a wedding night with Joffrey to be a happy affair? It is delusional to think that Ramsay would be better. Recall that in books he left his last wife to starve to death in a tower to take her land! What’s really sickening is that what he did to Sansa is fairly low on his list of psychopathic actions from the book. It’s one thing when it’s with poor forgotten Jeyne, but very different when it’s with beloved Sansa. Keep in mind, though, that in the book when folks at Winterfell see how horrible he is to his wife, they actually believe it is Arya, which is something the readers don’t have to experience in the book as they did in the show.

(PS, when reading the Jeyne scenes I was haunted for days, so do understand I take this seriously. Perhaps I just had my time to accept this scene since the engagement was announced in the show because I knew it would happen, if not on the wedding night, then soon. I might also note that I read the books late and with the chapters in a different order, so I read these scenes in the book fairly recently.)

[Tanacetum Vulgare]

That's what I'm thinking too. That scene where Sansa's crying in the next episode. Doesn't it look like the scene where Sansa first met Myranda(tower Bran fell, where the candle is)? Except it's snowing like crazy.

Also, why else would Sansa cry? I know she was a crybaby but not anymore. Of course she cried during her rape scene, but only because it was her first time and she didn't exactly like the guy that'll deflower her.

Also, when Sansa said "My family still has friends in the North." to Theon. It felt like she still has ALOT of hope left in her. But Ramsay crushed it on the scene where she's crying.

I'm curious about this scene as well. To me, on re-watching, it looks like Sansa is looking at something/someone that is making her cry like that. My guess is that Ramsay has flayed someone at Winterfell and shown them to Sansa as a "present". Top candidates to my mind are Myranda, Walda, Brienne.

Would Sansa cry like this to see Myranda or Walda flayed? She doesn't seem to like either of them at this point, but horrors pile up and a woman who's suffered at a psychopath's hands could well be this upset to see another woman who's suffered worse at his hands. Or is it Brienne, whom Sansa was secretly hoping would come save her after she told Brienne to go to hell in front of Littlefinger?

Any other theories? I'm not saying it couldn't happen in the candle scene, but there has to be more to it. Sansa is looking at SOMEthing, and I doubt it's her candle going out in the tower.

[Arya442]

I do not actually think the “bedding” scene with Ramsay was all that bad considering it is Ramsay. I was nearly sick when I first saw that Sansa would marry Ramsay, thinking of the wedding night with Jeyne. I’m not even sure Ramsay thinks he treated Sansa particularly badly, considering he’s a psychopath. I can see him thinking “I didn’t cut her or beat her. I was a good husband.” Besides, if Ramsay managed to “play a role” of loving husband for a night or a week, the book readers had to know something like this or worse was still coming. (I don't think that Sansa neccessarily should have expected it though, but neither did Jeyne.) Frankly, I was relieved that this scene was less elaborate or torturous than any direct application of a Jeyne scene. I feel that focusing on Theon’s face instead of a view of the bed, while being able to hear Sansa, was a good compromise. Face it, when the writers decided to have Sansa marry Ramsay, something like this was inevitable. The northerners need to perceive that Ned’s daughter (Jeyne-as-Arya/Sansa) is in need of rescuing for the rest of the plot to move forward. Plus, in the show, so much time has been spent portraying Ramsay as a psychopath, along the lines of Joffrey. Would viewers have expected a wedding night with Joffrey to be a happy affair? It is delusional to think that Ramsay would be better. Recall that in books he left his last wife to starve to death in a tower to take her land! What’s really sickening is that what he did to Sansa is fairly low on his list of psychopathic actions from the book. It’s one thing when it’s with poor forgotten Jeyne, but very different when it’s with beloved Sansa. Keep in mind, though, that in the book when folks at Winterfell see how horrible he is to his wife, they actually believe it is Arya, which is something the readers don’t have to experience in the book as they did in the show.

(PS, when reading the Jeyne scenes I was haunted for days, so do understand I take this seriously. Perhaps I just had my time to accept this scene since the engagement was announced in the show because I knew it would happen, if not on the wedding night, then soon. I might also note that I read the books late and with the chapters in a different order, so I read these scenes in the book fairly recently.)

Oh I completely agree that in the context of the show, what Ramsay did is in-character. And I suppose that not showing must of it was uncharacteristic restraint on the writer's part (I'm wondering if that decision was a request for Sophie, or her being still pretty young, or something like that). I'm very mixed on the Theon thing. As I said, it does show some unusual restraints for this show, but I can also fully understand why some people take issue with focusing on HIS reaction during HER rape.

So it's not the context of the scene itself that bugs me. I don't like that they felt the need to put her in that situation in the first place (and they've apparently been tossing this idea around since Season 2, which makes it worse).

[Tanacetum Vulgare]

The Sand Brats were a waste of scenery. "Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken" they chant as they prepare to seize and murder an innocent girl (who happens to be the ward of their king). Oberyn would roll over in his grave - as much as he hated Tywin Lannister, he seemed to hold no ill-will toward Myrcella or personal dislike for Tyrion (which makes sense, since Tyrion was a child at the time Elia Martell and her children died, and Myrcella was not even born). :dunno:

Honestly, I see a theme running through this episode (and others this season) that all women are dumb, petty bitches, and fail before they even try (and deserve it when they get raped). The Sandfakes are a great example of this. I feel like the writers/producers are saying to us, "Look at these dumb bitches, trying to be badass." As you said, their father would turn in his grave.

Also, the bath scene. Sansa's "empowerment" comes from her being catty to another woman, calling her on alleged jealousy when the other woman is literally warning her she's about to marry a murdering psychopath??????????? Does this make ANY sense at all apart from a "all women are dumb bitches" perspective?

If you were getting ready for a wedding to someone you hardly knew, and the person helping you get ready started telling you your betrothed is a murderer...wouldn't you investigate further? Perhaps ask a few questions? Think twice?

No! You're a strong woman. You put that other female in her place. She's just jealous. You go, grrrrl!