[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

[obsessedwithjon]

I also want to follow up my post about the bedding scene being in line with Ramsay's character, that it also reveals Little Finger as a villian complicit in the rape (in the show). He KNEW it was going to be like that. He ARRANGED for Sansa to be put in a position where she's expected to sexually please a monster like Ramsay. Following up on the episode where he feigns not knowing Ramsay's past, it's revealed that he knew exactly what he was doing this whole time, in a way far more calculating than we knew. He got Sansa to trust him to the point where she turned down rescue from Brienne, then delivered her to a pschopathic, torturing rapist to take her virginity as he kissed her goodbye. I don't think it's a conicidence his conversation with Cersei and this scene were in the same episode. Readers likely expected Ramsay to be that cruel, but I for one did not expect Little Finger to be that heartless to Sansa at least. If there was anyone I believed he really cared about, I thought it could be Sansa. (She is the daughter of his one true love after all.) Now we see he will do anything to anyone if it will help him and he thinks he can get away with it. The scene is shocking enough that I don't think that connection is immediately apparent, but it's essential to the larger story, not just in Sansa's arc but in Little Finger's.

[Ismay73]

I'm curious about this scene as well. To me, on re-watching, it looks like Sansa is looking at something/someone that is making her cry like that. My guess is that Ramsay has flayed someone at Winterfell and shown them to Sansa as a "present". Top candidates to my mind are Myranda, Walda, Brienne.

Would Sansa cry like this to see Myranda or Walda flayed? She doesn't seem to like either of them at this point, but horrors pile up and a woman who's suffered at a psychopath's hands could well be this upset to see another woman who's suffered worse at his hands. Or is it Brienne, whom Sansa was secretly hoping would come save her after she told Brienne to go to hell in front of Littlefinger?

Any other theories? I'm not saying it couldn't happen in the candle scene, but there has to be more to it. Sansa is looking at SOMEthing, and I doubt it's her candle going out in the tower.

If Ramsay has taken her to look at something horrifying, uh, could this be more of a rehash? Joffrey did the same thing to Sansa and made her look at her father's and septa's heads. This just needs to stop.

I hoping it's more of - this is what will happen to you if you don't behave while I'm gone. He leaves to battle Stannis. Bye, Felicia!

Edited May 19, 2015 by Ismay73

[Arya442]

I also want to follow up my post about the bedding scene being in line with Ramsay's character, that it also reveals Little Finger as a villian complicit in the rape (in the show). He KNEW it was going to be like that. He ARRANGED for Sansa to be put in a position where she's expected to sexually please a monster like Ramsay. Following up on the episode where he feigns not knowing Ramsay's past, it's revealed that he knew exactly what he was doing this whole time, in a way far more calculating than we knew. He got Sansa to trust him to the point where she turned down rescue from Brienne, then delivered her to a pschopathic, torturing rapist to take her virginity as he kissed her goodbye. I don't think it's a conicidence his conversation with Cersei and this scene were in the same episode. Readers likely expected Ramsay to be that cruel, but I for one did not expect Little Finger to be that heartless to Sansa at least. If there was anyone I believed he really cared about, I thought it could be Sansa. (She is the daughter of his one true love after all.) Now we see he will do anything to anyone if it will help him and he thinks he can get away with it. The scene is shocking enough that I don't think that connection is immediately apparent, but it's essential to the larger story, not just in Sansa's arc but in Little Finger's.

Except that the writer's claim that LF didn't know about Ramsay's "habits," and that he wouldn't have sent her in there if he had know. Yeah, that makes no sense, but that's their explanation.

[Tanacetum Vulgare]

If Ramsay has taken her to look at something horrifying, uh, could this be more of a rehash? Joffrey did the same thing to Sansa and made her look at her father's and septa's heads. This just needs to stop.

I hoping it's more of - this is what will happen to you if you don't behave while I'm gone. He leaves to battle Stannis. Bye, Felicia!

It could be. Definitely. Or maybe he's flayed the "the North remembers" serving woman. We haven't seen her in an episode.

The writers and producers have been accused of using a "cut and paste" technique this season when trying to move story/character dev. forward. It could be that, too. I can't even guess anymore. I give them 0 credit.

[1234567]

Given the controversy they have caused with this episode, does anyone else think that Cersei's Walk is now going to be even more controversial?

Her Walk / Jon's Death should have been the biggest shocks of the season and there certainly would have been fallout from the walk in the press, but now we have a added rape scene for one major female character and then the sexual humiliation of another female character, who they have made a lot nicer on the show than in the books.

[Tanacetum Vulgare]

The Gold Cloaks did make a move to protect her, but Tommen held up his hand to stop them. I missed that the first time watching the scene, but I noticed it the second time. I am curious as to why he stopped them and did not force the issue. I really did expect some sort of uproar from Tommen, but he did not make a move other than to hold up his hand to stop the gold cloaks. Why do you think he did not cause a scene and force the issue? I do not think it would have changed the outcome, but I found it curious as to why he did not at least make an attempt to save his queen.

Watching Tommen in the scene, he looked really uncomfortable, and seemed to be glancing toward Cersei more than once. My conclusion was that he knew what was going to happen - Mommy told him - and, unable to think of a way to stand up to her, Tommen just went along with it. Cersei probably threatened him in some way. Or was like, "Do you want to be de-throned because the High Sparrow knows your uncle is your father? We need this distraction!"

Just throwing ideas around.

Can we just get *some* cyvasse though! I want to see it!

YES. They seem so into making elaborate props, just create a board and have it in the bg somewhere already.

[obsessedwithjon]

Except that the writer's claim that LF didn't know about Ramsay's "habits," and that he wouldn't have sent her in there if he had know. Yeah, that makes no sense, but that's their explanation.

Really? I thought that was a feint on his part. I can't stand listening to the writers' commentary because everything they say is so obvious and they just try to make their work seem better than it is. If I was a professor of a film class and they were students who turned that in for an assignment, I would have plenty of red marks all over it with things like "You have to think more deeply about this" and "Your analysis needs to go beyond surface observations." So I admit, I did not listen to the writers' commentary about it.

[Grizzly Mormont]

Loras would have single handledly murdered every sparrow in that arrest scene.

[Modesty Lannister]

This is the longest I have gone before writing a review from a weekly episode (other than a time I was on vacation during a season). Its hard to get into words without 1) sounding like I am a "book purist" (a terrible, misapplied term that's sort of akin to saying "You are such a 'music purist' in that you don't like it when people play out of tune or the 'wrong' notes.'"); 2) a person who just cannot be pleased or 3) a thin-skinned whine-bot.

But the show is bad. Not just this episode; the show is devolving as B&B run out of sourcve materials and try to advance the plot on their own. And they are bad at that.

Do I need to expound on this? Okay....

-Since last season, B&B made an unpardonable sin: they began believing their own press. GoT was working as a show NOT because of Martin's books or the richness of the source material; no. B&B started to think it was because of them. This in SPITE of the fact that the show's two most memorable episodes- Blackwater and the Reigns of Castemere were almost a word-for-word translation of Martin's books; and that some of the most famous episodes after those were also very close to the source material (Mountain and the Viper; Baelor; etc). And that the show's biggest sins were when B&B thought they could do it alone. (case in point- the utter failure of Jon Snow at Craster's Keep- a nonsensical scene that nearly imploded the show)

-Since Tywin's death- so all of season 5 - we have been treated to terribly paced episodes that have so little in the way of sense, cohesion, plot etc. Its a completely bas-ackwards development system that puts the plot LAST and story convenience front and center. We need more Jon Snow; the fans like Jon Snow.... so HERE'S JON SNOW!!!! Ah... Well, what's he doing? WHO CARES!!! Tyrion, we need more Tyrion. The fans like Tyrion. What's he doing? NO IDEA!!! Arya; we need more Arya.... etc etc etc

-Take for example Brienne. First of all, where is she? How come? She is following Sansa; why? Sansa has said she does not want to be with Brienne. Wouldn't that get Brienne to stop? How come Brinne is still following her? How come Breinne demanded to confront Sansa- wanted for regicide, mind you - and demanded Sansa leave with her? Did that make any sense? In a crowded tavern? Why is Jon going beyond the Wall? Who would do that? Why now? Isn't he needed ON the Wall? Does this make any sense? How come LF has picked the most ridiculously convoluted plot to divide the realm? I know that we are supposed to think that he is 2-3 moves ahead, but I get the feeling LF is simply smart because the writers want him t be that way so they always write everyone to do EXACTLY what will help LF. Because reasons.

-And then there is the torture porn. Dance with Dragons is not a strong book. But Martin knew less was more in the Theon story-line; keeping Theon unseen for 2 books before unleashing "Reek" on us. Martin didn't want 6 chapters dedicated to how abused Theon is; that would be depressing, sadistic, cruel and probably boring. SO Martin- brilliantly -allowed our minds to race when thinking about Theon as he transforms into Reek; that his demise must be so hideous and awful that even Reek himself has warped rather than remember it; that it is so terrible that even his mind only recalls it in dribs and drabs. And that by keeping it mostly hidden, our own imaginations can fill in the gaps pretty well;

If somebody were to say to us that we could not imagine the depravity Reek had to endure, the reader can turn to his accuser and say, like Han Solo,, "I don't know; I can imagine quite a bit."

But the show-runners- oh hell no. No. Now we need to show every harm, every cut, every sexualized torture; especially the sex torture. Can't have good torture without that!!! And we must detail it all week in and week out. Because the viewer... is stupid. So, so stupid. The viewer may not know that Reek has been tortured; the viewer has to be spoon-fed the plot and what's going on, otherwise he will be confused and may watch another show... like Grey's Anatomy. So, we have to show him everything. Because... torture porn.

-And that leaves the rape.

This past week was not some sudden storm of depravity and awfulness, but the culmination of B&B's completely horrible and corrupted view of these works. It is the T-H-I-R-D time B&B have inserted rape into the shows where there was not one to begin with.

The first was Dany's wedding night. In the books, its a very tender scene were Drogo is showing the limits of his understanding while at the same time trying- ever so slowly - to make Dany as comfortable as possible; the constant "No's" that direct Drogo and the reader through Dany's consciousness and timidity before finally delivering both characters- seamlessly- to each other in mutual affection, understanding and passion.

In the show, Drogo rapes Dany because, reasons. There is nothing resembling the scene in the books; just a brutal rape that sees a woman crying the whole time.

The second was, possibly, the worst scene in the show's history when Jaime rapes Cersei in the sept. In the books, its a highly emotional scene where the two characters are reunited after about a year and in the books, its clearly and unambiguously a mutual sexual act filled with horrifying imagery and lustful indiscretions.

In the show, Jaime rapes Cersei, because, reasons. Actually, according to B&B it WAS NOT a rape, then it WAS a rape. Hooray!!!!! Let's completely destroy the most compelling redemption arc in sci-fi fantasy history BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT RAPE IS!!!! Had we known, we never ever ever would have put Jaime in that position, but as show-runners we don't know what's going on!

The third was Sunday night where Ramsey rapes Sansa. IN the books, Sansa isn't even in WF; she is miles away. In the books, Jayne Poole- fake Arya- is terrified of the entire ordeal (as she should be); yes, terrible things happen to her and its terrible, but, again, the reader does not see much of it; its only heavily implied. We don't need to see it to know what is transpiring because, like Han Solo... we can imagine quite a bit.

In the show, Ramsey rapes Sansa, because reasons. Its a terrible scene that the viewer did not need to see as the viewer could have seen Sansa wake up in the morning nude and uncomfortable to know that Ramsey had been at work. No need to show us rape. But ... but they can't help themselves at this point because awful art is awful.

This does not even include the other scenes of untold sexual depravity untouched in the books; the scene were Joff forces Roz to beat up the other prostitute; the extreme nature of the FIRST time Sansa was almost raped in the King's Landing; the extremely long-stretches of rape at Craster's (when in the book, the scene is suddenly violent and over quickly); and on and on and on. This is not to say the books are fine or "G-level" violence; quiet the opposite: Martin graphically describes rape and its horrifying effects. But in the books, Martin uses the horror of Rape carefully and rationally (as in he "rations" it out); he applies it also to women AND men and does not use it for the shock-value of B&B. Because Martin is an actual artist who understands his craft. B&B are looking more and more like they know less and less.

Then add in the fact that some of the show... makes NO SENSE AT ALL. This week had a CLASSIC scene in the "This-Makes-No-Fucking-Sense" department. Jaime sneaking into Dorne is, HANDS DOWN - the dumbest plot devise the show has EVER had . WHY IS JAIME SNEAKING INTO DORNE???? Nobody has come close to explaining why. But fine. Whatever. Now you have Obarra and the Sand Snakes- a reasonably well-done plot devise in the books... is utterly vapid in the show. Yes... lets spring into action ... now! Why??? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS! We just so happen to want to kill the KIng's sister ... now? Or was it because Jaime and Bronn entered the city? Didn't you assume you would be stopped? What was the point?

Because Fire and Blood? Yeah, see, that only works if Quentin is still around. And he DOES NOT EXIST IN THE SHOW! So... why... again?

Now, add in the fact that we are now half-way through the season and virtually nothing has happened. But worse, the show cannot seem to use the tools it still has. A solid argument can be made that some of the decline in show quality (and in book quality) has been the loss of major characters- Robert, Ned, Tywin, Viserys, Ygritte, Robb, Joff, Renly, etc etc etc - that the deaths make it harder and harder for the viewer/reader to appreciate the story without characters we know and like. Fair. But in the books, at the very least, Martin tries to get his reader invested in other characters who can carry the burden. The show's response to this issue? KILL MORE CHARACTERS! Gren, Pyp, all of Dany's hand-maidens, and so on.

But two deaths stand out for their utter stupidity, both happened this season: The first is Mance. Mance was introduced IN SEASON TWO! According to IMDB he was in 5 episodes. FIVE! Ros was in 14. Mance was utterly unimportant in the show because B&B had no idea how to use him, how he helped the story, or what he could do. BUT they knew that by killing a character you create "buzz" so.... BAM! Dead. Second, Barristan Selmy. He starts off in KL then goes a continent away to advsie Dany to... what again? No matter. He is her sworn sword who ... does... nothing. BUT he finally, at long last has his stunt double kicks some ass and then ... is promptly killed. Why? What was the point of his character? Why were we invested in him? I mean, sure, he wasn't a eunuch who falls in love with the only non-Queen female character in like 1000 miles, but he was KG; he was head of the QG; he knew Rhyeagar; he knew Aerys. He could have shone some light on this .... OH NEVER MIND! Just kill him because WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEVELOP A STORY OTHERWISE!!!

And that's the show right now- they don't know how to move the story without doing terrible things; killing men and raping women. Is that harsh of me? Find me a compelling part of the story that is not driven by one of those elements; go ahead.

The show is getting REALLY bad right now and its because Martin KNEW what he was doing and it wasn't this; and the show runners don't know what they are doing and it IS this.

Absolutely.

[starklover]

That's what I'm thinking too. That scene where Sansa's crying in the next episode. Doesn't it look like the scene where Sansa first met Myranda(tower Bran fell, where the candle is)? Except it's snowing like crazy.

Also, why else would Sansa cry? I know she was a crybaby but not anymore. Of course she cried during her rape scene, but only because it was her first time and she didn't exactly like the guy that'll deflower her.

Also, when Sansa said "My family still has friends in the North." to Theon. It felt like she still has ALOT of hope left in her. But Ramsay crushed it on the scene where she's crying.

I have no idea what's shes looking at. it could be nothing

[Modesty Lannister]

It's amazing, and not a coincidence, that my three favorite scenes so far this season were silent. Arya........silently and touchingly holding Needle (without conveying any of D&D's stupid REVENGEisms from the adjoining Inside the Episode segment), Jaime with the quiet Tarth Gaze, especially at the mention of The Sapphire Isle, and this episode with Jorah quietly contemplating his father and learning of his death. It says a lot about how great the actors really can be and how far the quality of writing has fallen that silent scenes, three of them now, tend to be the most powerful. Love your comparative dialogue at the end there.

Cannot agree more. But, I do wonder. GoT budget grows every year. Where does the money go to? This season so far they killed Mance Rayder and Barristan Selmy. They are about to kill Aemon, Trent and who know who else. Last season they killed Tywin Lannister, Pyp and Grenn, Ygritte, Joffrey. These were handsomely paid actors. They were replaced by Jonathan Pryce, Siddik and some girls who almost volunteered to be on the show. Where the f..k is the money? And why is it not spent on good writers then?

[Dalpha]

Shut the hell up about the final scene being a scene from the books. That's a false rumor started by a internet troll.

[marsyao]

Cannot agree more. But, I do wonder. GoT budget grows every year. Where does the money go to? This season so far they killed Mance Rayder and Barristan Selmy. They are about to kill Aemon, Trent and who know who else. Last season they killed Tywin Lannister, Pyp and Grenn, Ygritte, Joffrey. These were handsomely paid actors. They were replaced by Jonathan Pryce, Siddik and some girls who almost volunteered to be on the show. Where the f..k is the money? And why is it not spent on good writers then?

I guess all of the budge goes to finding exotic filming location and fancy wardrobe, and I doubt that is why they kill off Barristan Selmy so that they can save a few bucks

[marsyao]

Shut the hell up about the final scene being a scene from the books. That's a false rumor started by a internet troll.

Yes, and I will say further that even without that final scene, the quality of this season is still miserable

[I am a Dragon]

Loras would have single handledly murdered every sparrow in that arrest scene.

It really bothered me that he didn't just ask Olyvar for his sword when they tried to arrest him.

"Give me the command, Your Grace. The castle will be yours within a fortnight if I have to tear it down with my bare hands" - Loras

"He's me. I am speaking to myself, as I was, all cocksure arrogance and empty chivalry. This is what it does to you, to be too good too young." - Jaime

I guess all of the budge goes to finding exotic filming location and fancy wardrobe, and I doubt that is why they kill off Barristan Selmy so that they can save a few bucks

More than half of the Dorne scenes so far are painfully obviously filmed in Ireland. Why film in Spain if they aren't going to use it?

Edited May 19, 2015 by I am a Dragon

[R4W13Y]

can someone please explain?

I think other people have given you explanations, but far too detailed and possibly confusing because it seems like you are asking about the basics of what he said, not the thematic/dramatic purposes of what he said.

"No one" means she is not Arya. She's not anyone. He wants her to become "no one" as in forgetting her identity.

"Some one" means taking on the role of someone else, now that she's "no one" (AKA no longer Arya). So she's ready to "take on another face". Another persona.

You must first be no one (have no identity) to become someone (else).

Really? I thought that was a feint on his part. I can't stand listening to the writers' commentary because everything they say is so obvious and they just try to make their work seem better than it is. If I was a professor of a film class and they were students who turned that in for an assignment, I would have plenty of red marks all over it with things like "You have to think more deeply about this" and "Your analysis needs to go beyond surface observations." So I admit, I did not listen to the writers' commentary about it.

I wish there was a clapping hands smiley, because that's exactly what I would post here.

[Jonathan N]

Honestly, I see a theme running through this episode (and others this season) that all women are dumb, petty bitches, and fail before they even try (and deserve it when they get raped). The Sandfakes are a great example of this. I feel like the writers/producers are saying to us, "Look at these dumb bitches, trying to be badass." As you said, their father would turn in his grave.

Also, the bath scene. Sansa's "empowerment" comes from her being catty to another woman, calling her on alleged jealousy when the other woman is literally warning her she's about to marry a murdering psychopath??????????? Does this make ANY sense at all apart from a "all women are dumb bitches" perspective?

If you were getting ready for a wedding to someone you hardly knew, and the person helping you get ready started telling you your betrothed is a murderer...wouldn't you investigate further? Perhaps ask a few questions? Think twice?

No! You're a strong woman. You put that other female in her place. She's just jealous. You go, grrrrl!

This

[Vee Stark]

Everyone is talking about this "Sansa Scene" and i'm over here like....When is Dany's dragons going to lay some dragon eggs??..Hahahaha

[Modesty Lannister]

I guess all of the budge goes to finding exotic filming location and fancy wardrobe, and I doubt that is why they kill off Barristan Selmy so that they can save a few bucks

Fancy wardrobe? Dorne guards (Bronn and Jaime included) were wrapped in someone's great grandmother's curtains.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Fancy wardrobe? Dorne guards (Bronn and Jaime included) were wrapped in someone's great grandmother's curtains.

LOL I couldn't agree more. All those 'Dornish Curtains' lacked were the rod running through them, a la Carol Burnett as Scarlett O'Hara

http://41.media.tumblr.com/f5dfa354d46fd712b412196f82697de7/tumblr_mq5avoSUOv1qar83lo6_500.png

Oh well, it's only fitting considering the entire Water Gardens scenes came off as a comedy sketch anyway.