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[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2


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LOL I couldn't agree more. All those 'Dornish Curtains' lacked were the rod running through them, a la Carol Burnett as Scarlett O'Hara

http://41.media.tumblr.com/f5dfa354d46fd712b412196f82697de7/tumblr_mq5avoSUOv1qar83lo6_500.png

Oh well, it's only fitting considering the entire Water Gardens scenes came off as a comedy sketch anyway.

Indeed and it's one size fits all.

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Just coming in on this topic thread and from the first page, I just have to say: BRAVO jet199! There was so much about that post that was so amazing and so true.



QFT, all that. Not just epic on this topic, I think it's one of the better posts I have ever read, anywhere. And I've read a lot of posts.



Just to bask in what you wrote again, I'm going to re-print it here, because it so bears repeating (bold is mine):






I don't get why people think that Sansa getting in a bad situation means that her last scene of season 4 doesn't make sense. Character arcs don't go need to learn something, learn it , win. They usually have characters trying many multiple tactics to get to their goal or even repeating the same mistakes over and over until they succeed. A 2 hour movie will usually 4 or 5 different screw ups by the main character before they finally get on the right track so an 8 season epic fantasy season should have quite a few more than that. In real life most people do continually make the same mistakes, get in the same holes and continue the same habits while somebody completely changing the way they react to situations or changing their world view is usually very difficult once or twice in a decade event and fiction reflects this.


I think the trouble is that people have gotten to respect LF too much. This means that Sansa turning into LF 2.0 is not seen as an obviously bad thing in the way that, say, Arya become no one is. Really all the characters on apprenticeship type arcs are being set up to fail and it is just that some are more obvious than others. We know all the time that no matter how well Dany does with organising Meereen she will be leaving but with Jon we don't realise that being leader of the NW is not his ultimate role until his final chapter. Similarly with Sansa we think she is safe because we have not seen the end of her arc but it may well be that what happens in the show with Ramsey is not dissimilar to what happens with Harry. Being smart at politics doesn't stop someone being sexually naive. Wearing a black dress did not turn a teenage girl into a seductress.






And...



That Vanity Fair article is disgusting. It is either saying that women who have power and agency don't get raped or that women who are raped no longer have power or agency. Seriously some of the anti-show comments are far more messed up about rape than those trying to work out what it means in the show. Does it mean Sansa is stupid because she should have seen it coming? No because, as I have said above, anyone in that situation, no matter how nice the other party seems, is vulnerable to the same thing happening to them. People worrying about Sansa's arc not working now she has lost her virginity or that she might be pregnant. No one was worried about whether Jeyne might be carrying Ramsay's child as she was being beaten or getting frostbite. Neither Cersei, Dany or Lysa had their marriage prospects dented by being a mother. People might also want to remember that in the original story GRRM planned for Sansa to have Joffery's child so it's not completely against her character.



Edited by Nilan8888
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Hi all,

i have been following these forums since a long time now. My question from last episode: what is jaqen implying when he says that a girl is not ready to become noone, but a girl is ready to become someone?

I saw this answered a few times and still some confusion. Essentially, to become noone is akin to mastering their training. However, becoming someone else is a lot easier.

He is saying she has shown that she might be ready to take that first step and become Cat of the Canals. Rather than becoming a faceless man.

How do you think LF will explain the presence of Sansa in Winterfell to the Vale Lords?

More lies. Perhaps he will claim that Sansa was kidnapped by Brienne and taken to Winterfell.

This could easily be drilled into them by starting to adhere to how he makes the Vale lords cooperate in the books. The interactions between him and the lords of the vale havent been that pronounced in the show, but theres smoke there. They could expand on that quite easily and remain true to the book relationship of him essentially holding Sweet Robin hostage and by buying or disposing of lords one by one untill they are all loyal to his purse.

I think this also links up to his end game of LF pushing the Stannis v Bolton fight and him rolling up like a vulture to finish the survivors to become Lord Protector of the Vale, Warden of the North, Lord Paramount of the Trident.

.

What the fuck is wrong with you man? Of course it was rape. Watch the scene again, Ramsay is obviously making her things she doesn't want to do. Forcing her to undress, ripping her clothes off while she is terrifiied, making the murderer of her brothers watch? I don't know what you have going on in your bedroom, but that's not consensual sex.

I am really not one of those hardcore feminists, that cry rape when you look at them weirdly. But that scene was very obviously rape.

Ive had this argument with some of the facebook groups.

In our culture. 100% rape. However, Westeros =/= 21st Century Western Civilisation. We need to stop applying our morals onto a television show which is based around a medieval code.

She was married and went off to her husbands room. What happens then is what happens to every female of that period. They consummate the marriage. A lot of people are using the line "Why didnt Tyrion bang Sansa". Well thats because Tyrion isnt a psycho who genitally mutilates, flays or hunts people with pack hounds. He has, under their culture, the right to his wife. She has begrudgingly given consent by going through with the marriage (not that she had a choice). I suspect, Sansa thought she could act all frightened (watch how she starts to unbutton her dress) like she did with Tyrion and get away without taking the dick.

Where was the outcry when Khal Drogo pounded Dany? Everyone was to busy fantasizing about Drogo sticking it to them to care it was rape.

I ask this question. Had Ramsay "raped" Jeyne Pool, would it have caused this much of an outrage? I suspect the only reason so many people are angry is because Sansa is the sweet, innocent little dove that has gone through hell.

If Ramsay has done anything wrong, it is being rough and violent with the fresh flower. Dont think they have KY back in Westeros though.

Edited by Misnthropia
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Thoughts while watching:



- Terrible editing at the beginning. Cutting from Arya, to Tyrion/Jorah, immediately back to Arya, then immediately back to Tyrion/Jorah? What was the point? It didn't create suspense in either story, just an unwelcome interruption. Both stories should have been allowed to play out in their entirety.



- Fantastic imagery with the Hall of Faces.



- You know, that patch of greyscale is pretty small, and Jorah seems to be right-handed; there seems to be an easy solution before him. (Only half-serious here).



- Wasn't expecting that extra plot wrinkle Littlefinger threw out there, but I like it.



- Related to the above: in one of these threads, a poster has said something to the effect that the showrunners seem much more comfortable dealing with political machinations and intrigue than they are dealing with the supernatural aspects of the story, or the more important struggle going on at the Wall. I'd agree with that. Interviews and those "Inside the Episode" clips show that D&D understand which is the more serious conflict, but that hasn't necessarily come across in the show. I've even come across non-book-reading commentators dismissing scenes at the Wall as "unimportant" and focusing instead on who will get the Iron Throne in the end. Part of that is due to Jon and the Wall getting some of the worst writing of the show, but part of that is due to beefing up Littlefinger's scheming, and the expansion of characters like the Tyrells.



Speaking of which...



- My mixed feelings about the Tyrells continue, and I think I've had a breakthrough as to why I'm getting more iffy about them. In earlier seasons, Margery's expanded role primarily served to bring something out of Joffrey and Cersei. As time has gone on, Marg (and Loras, and Olenna) are getting more material for their own sake. While some of that has been genuinely entertaining and a welcome surprise, it's come at the price of eating up screen time that could have gone to, frankly, more important characters. It's hard to know at this point if that trade-off is worth it. I suspect I'll have more to say on this subject next week.



Though, on the other hand, who doesn't want to see Diana Rigg insult Cersei to her smug face?



- Related: the further we get into AFfC material, the more disappointed I am that Lena Hadley's performance is so much more low-key than I ever imagined BookCersei being.



- The Sand Snakes are, once again, underwhelming. That sequence as a whole was one of the most incompetent action scenes in the entire series IMO. How so? Let's explore that:


1. They attempt a kidnapping in broad daylight, with the knowledge that their cousin will be around, in the courtyard of Doran's palace, which they have to know is under guard, while wearing conspicuous coverings over their faces. Brilliant logic.


2. The fight choreography is terrible. I'd be more forgiving of this due to the time limits of TV production if the show hadn't managed much better several times in the past. It's so bad here that Bronn - whom the show has built up as some sort of super-fighter - comes off as a total idiot for never thinking to cut that damn whip in two.


3. It was boring. I didn't care much about the Sand Snakes one way or the other in the books, but Arianne's abduction of Myrcella was one of the most exciting chapters IMO. It was clear going into this season that that scene wasn't going to be realised as-is in the show, but they could have come up with something of comparable quality.



- Why didn't Robb have this sort of Old Gods wedding ceremony? Granted, there was no weirwood handy, but still...



- I'm a little surprised at the uproar over the ending. It was a dark and disturbing scene, and not really necessary to demonstrate Ramsay's cruelty after his role had been built up so much in previous seasons. But, given what happens in the comparable scene in the book, I'd say D&D toned things down this time. And I expect the effects this act has on Theon, and on Sansa, will be paid off in the future.


Edited by Fisch
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Thoughts while watching:

- Terrible editing at the beginning. Cutting from Arya, to Tyrion/Jorah, immediately back to Arya, then immediately back to Tyrion/Jorah? What was the point? It didn't create suspense in either story, just an unwelcome interruption. Both stories should have been allowed to play out in their entirety.

- Fantastic imagery with the Hall of Faces.

- You know, that patch of greyscale is pretty small, and Jorah seems to be right-handed; there seems to be an easy solution before him. (Only half-serious here).

- Wasn't expecting that extra plot wrinkle Littlefinger threw out there, but I like it.

- Related to the above: in one of these threads, a poster has said something to the effect that the showrunners seem much more comfortable dealing with political machinations and intrigue than they are dealing with the supernatural aspects of the story, or the more important struggle going on at the Wall. I'd agree with that. Interviews and those "Inside the Episode" clips show that D&D understand which is the more serious conflict, but that hasn't necessarily come across in the show. Part of that is due to Jon and the Wall getting some of the worst writing of the show, but part of that is due to beefing up Littlefinger's scheming, and the expansion of characters like the Tyrells.

Speaking of which...

- My mixed feelings about the Tyrells continue, and I think I've had a breakthrough as to why I'm getting more iffy about them. In earlier seasons, Margery's expanded role primarily served to bring something out of Joffrey and Cersei. As time has gone on, Marg (and Loras, and Olenna) are getting more material for their own sake. While some of that has been genuinely entertaining and a welcome surprise, it's come at the price of eating up screen time that could have gone to, frankly, more important characters. It's hard to know at this point if that trade-off is worth it. I suspect I'll have more to say on this subject next week.

Though, on the other hand, who doesn't want to see Diana Rigg insult Cersei to her smug face?

- Related: the further we get into AFfC material, the more disappointed I am that Lena Hadley's performance is so much more low-key than I ever imagined BookCersei being.

- The Sand Snakes are, once again, underwhelming. That sequence as a whole was one of the most incompetent action scenes in the entire series IMO. How so? Let's explore that:

1. They attempt a kidnapping in broad daylight, with the knowledge that their cousin will be around, in the courtyard of Doran's palace, which they have to know is under guard, while wearing conspicuous coverings over their faces. Brilliant logic.

2. The fight choreography is terrible. I'd be more forgiving of this due to the time limits of TV production if the show hadn't managed much better several times in the past. It's so bad here that Bronn - whom the show has built up as some sort of super-fighter - comes off as a total idiot for never thinking to cut that damn whip in two.

3. It was boring. I didn't care much about the Sand Snakes one way or the other in the books, but Arianne's abduction of Myrcella was one of the most exciting chapters IMO. It was clear going into this season that that scene wasn't going to be realised as-is in the show, but they could have come up with something of comparable quality.

- Why didn't Robb have this sort of Old Gods wedding ceremony? Granted, there was no weirwood handy, but still...

- I'm a little surprised at the uproar over the ending. It was a dark and disturbing scene, and not really necessary to demonstrate Ramsay's cruelty after his role had been built up so much in previous seasons. But, given what happens in the comparable scene in the book, I'd say D&D toned things down this time. And I expect the effects this act has on Theon, and on Sansa, will be paid off in the future.

Good post. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

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Look at the “How would you rate this episode” threads on each episode comparing Season 4 to Season 5 (btw- Season 4 was NOT that good of a season. And this message board is known for (*ahem*) “support” for the show.

Here are the # of 1-3 star ratings from Season 4 by episode:

E1 7,

E2 9,

E3 39 (*Jaime rapes Cersei) ,

E4 45 (show does not address Jaime raping Cersie)

E5 16,

E6 10,

E7 11,

E8 33,

E9 59,

E10 103

That’s 332 ratings of 1,2 or 3 for THE ENTIRE SEASON 4.

Now… Season 5:

E1 35

E2 35

E3 25

E4 54

E5 51

E6 200

That’s FOUR HUNDRED VOTES (+68 over the prior season) of a 1,2 or 3 … AND WE ARE ONLY 6 EPISODES IN!

And what do these seasons have in common? Oh, rape THAT’S RIGHT!

Season 1 had several depictions of rape in it. What about season 1?

If the fandom gave 103 low votes for the finale of season 4, they are idiots. If they gave it 103 low votes because they were pissed off over something that happened in episode 3, they are IDIOTS. If they are willing to down vote every episode of an entire season because of a single scene in a single episode they found disturbing or offensive, then the voting system is irrelevant because: Eeeediots.

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?
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Thoughts while watching:

- Terrible editing at the beginning. Cutting from Arya, to Tyrion/Jorah, immediately back to Arya, then immediately back to Tyrion/Jorah? What was the point? It didn't create suspense in either story, just an unwelcome interruption. Both stories should have been allowed to play out in their entirety.

- Fantastic imagery with the Hall of Faces.

- You know, that patch of greyscale is pretty small, and Jorah seems to be right-handed; there seems to be an easy solution before him. (Only half-serious here).

- Wasn't expecting that extra plot wrinkle Littlefinger threw out there, but I like it.

- Related to the above: in one of these threads, a poster has said something to the effect that the showrunners seem much more comfortable dealing with political machinations and intrigue than they are dealing with the supernatural aspects of the story, or the more important struggle going on at the Wall. I'd agree with that. Interviews and those "Inside the Episode" clips show that D&D understand which is the more serious conflict, but that hasn't necessarily come across in the show. I've even come across non-book-reading commentators dismissing scenes at the Wall as "unimportant" and focusing instead on who will get the Iron Throne in the end. Part of that is due to Jon and the Wall getting some of the worst writing of the show, but part of that is due to beefing up Littlefinger's scheming, and the expansion of characters like the Tyrells.

Speaking of which...

- My mixed feelings about the Tyrells continue, and I think I've had a breakthrough as to why I'm getting more iffy about them. In earlier seasons, Margery's expanded role primarily served to bring something out of Joffrey and Cersei. As time has gone on, Marg (and Loras, and Olenna) are getting more material for their own sake. While some of that has been genuinely entertaining and a welcome surprise, it's come at the price of eating up screen time that could have gone to, frankly, more important characters. It's hard to know at this point if that trade-off is worth it. I suspect I'll have more to say on this subject next week.

Though, on the other hand, who doesn't want to see Diana Rigg insult Cersei to her smug face?

- Related: the further we get into AFfC material, the more disappointed I am that Lena Hadley's performance is so much more low-key than I ever imagined BookCersei being.

- The Sand Snakes are, once again, underwhelming. That sequence as a whole was one of the most incompetent action scenes in the entire series IMO. How so? Let's explore that:

1. They attempt a kidnapping in broad daylight, with the knowledge that their cousin will be around, in the courtyard of Doran's palace, which they have to know is under guard, while wearing conspicuous coverings over their faces. Brilliant logic.

2. The fight choreography is terrible. I'd be more forgiving of this due to the time limits of TV production if the show hadn't managed much better several times in the past. It's so bad here that Bronn - whom the show has built up as some sort of super-fighter - comes off as a total idiot for never thinking to cut that damn whip in two.

3. It was boring. I didn't care much about the Sand Snakes one way or the other in the books, but Arianne's abduction of Myrcella was one of the most exciting chapters IMO. It was clear going into this season that that scene wasn't going to be realised as-is in the show, but they could have come up with something of comparable quality.

- Why didn't Robb have this sort of Old Gods wedding ceremony? Granted, there was no weirwood handy, but still...

- I'm a little surprised at the uproar over the ending. It was a dark and disturbing scene, and not really necessary to demonstrate Ramsay's cruelty after his role had been built up so much in previous seasons. But, given what happens in the comparable scene in the book, I'd say D&D toned things down this time. And I expect the effects this act has on Theon, and on Sansa, will be paid off in the future.

I agree with much of this. I'd also add that the Tyrion /Jorah exchange about Jeor Mormont and Arya giving the "gift" to the young girl were both very poignant scenes.

I guess I'm alone in my lack of criticism for the sand snake fight scene. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Also, we really haven't seen that much of Dorne yet, so I'm holding off on making any judgments until I see that story develop.

One correction, I don't think they were attempting to kidnap her in broad daylight; I thought they were attempting to murder her in broad daylight. They are not going for subtlety here. They are trying to start a war.

edit: Now I'm not so sure. Ellaria talks about "sending her back to Cersei one finger at a time" and later, with the sand snakes, getting revenge and starting a war, but I don't think it was clear going in whether they were there to snatch her or kill her. At one point during the fight sequence, one of the sand snakes says "grab her" and the other tries to take her, but It's not clear if that was the original plan or something that was improvised to allow them to retreat from the (unexpected) confrontation with Bronn and Jamie.

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?
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I agree with much of this. I'd also add that the Tyrion /Jorah exchange about Jeor Mormont and Arya giving the "gift" to the young girl were both very poignant scenes.

I guess I'm alone in my lack of criticism for the sand snake fight scene.

I agree I thought that moment with Jorah, rivaled his scene where Dany asked about Daario. I wonder what his thoughts would be on Longclaw.

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I think other people have given you explanations, but far too detailed and possibly confusing because it seems like you are asking about the basics of what he said, not the thematic/dramatic purposes of what he said.

"No one" means she is not Arya. She's not anyone. He wants her to become "no one" as in forgetting her identity.

"Some one" means taking on the role of someone else, now that she's "no one" (AKA no longer Arya). So she's ready to "take on another face". Another persona.

You must first be no one (have no identity) to become someone (else).

I don't agree. Becoming no one is to stipping off old identity completely. Arya is not ready to do that because she still has lots of Arya in her. But she has learned a bit of lying and acting. So, she is ready to be someone else, meaning that she can pretend to be someone else. That refers to the Cat of the Canals in the books. She didnot change her face but assumed a false identity and roamed the streets and docks, selling stuff and spying on secrets.

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I know I’m a little late to post but after stewing about that Sansa scene, I realized how upset I am about some of the deviations from the books. I can stomach the changes as long as it doesn’t affect the overall plot and the changes aren’t irreversible that could cause major ripples in the story. I can stomach the awful dialogue in Dorne and the cock merchant story (barely). I can tolerate the plot holes and many coincidences within the story. Really the only two things that I have a major issue with are the death of Barristan and the Sansa wedding night scene. These two incidents are irreversible that can majorly change the story in the future. In regards to Sansa, I’ll start with the good…



So it was totally shocking, horrible, and heartbreaking to watch that scene. It made for “good” TV. The acting between the three of them in that scene was superb. Thank God they panned to Theon’s face so we didn’t have to watch. He really is a terrific actor. It was a very powerful scene. However, a single powerful scene does not make a good story.



My heart broke for Sansa when I really thought about it. Sansa was always fantasizing about her wedding/marriage and her future husband. In the book, she is lined up to marry Harry the Heir and become the Lady of the Vale. She has HOPE. I was actually excited for this, even though it wasn’t as “thrilling.” In the show, SHE ENDED UP MARRIED TO THE PSYCHO RAMSEY BOLTON. Talk about major disappointment…



Now she is married to the son of the man who not only betrayed her mother, her brother, and Robb’s entire army, but actually killed Robb himself. Given away by a man(?) she believes killed her two younger brothers. For some reason she feels safe in Winterfell even though she is surrounded by Stark-slaughterers because strange old people say “The North remembers” and give her a ridiculous way to signal if she’s in trouble. UH, SHE’S IN TROUBLE.



This deviation bothers me so much because I felt her virginity was a huge deal for her character and added to her value. Even if Ramsey dies, she is no longer a virgin. I feel like that matters for her story. Putting her into that story seemed like either 1- shock value, or 2- no faith in Theon’s redemption without her. We watched Theon get tortured over and over and over in season 3—we don’t need Sansa to care about Theon scenes. I’m thinking it was for shock value. Changing a major character’s story into a very minor character’s for shock value is selfish. I personally think seeing the dynamic between fArya and Theon would have been more interesting. When I read those parts, I felt AWFUL for Jeyne Poole, but as long as she got away from Ramsey, I did not really care where she ended up. Where will Sansa go now that her original story is kaput? The Wall? Become Lady Stoneheart and kill all Boltons and the now nonexistent Freys?



Anyone else think anything of her black hair dye washing out right before her wedding? Myranda washed her hair and out came the dye…


Edited by skrause88
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I see these types of posts a lot and it's unfortunate. Your problem here is a combination of ignorance of tv producing and blind fandom of the books. It's apparent that you haven't the slightest inkling on what it takes to produce a tv series, let alone one of this magnitude. Either that or you're such a fanboy you choose to ignore the fact that the show is a television production.

Just one example

"Jaime sneaking into Dorne is, HANDS DOWN - the dumbest plot devise the show has EVER had . WHY IS JAIME SNEAKING INTO DORNE???? Nobody has come close to explaining why"

They could not have been more clear why he is sneaking in. They have said it 3 times from 3 different characters. Cersei is afraid that the Martell's will hurt Myrcella in retaliation to Oberyn's death. But you knew that. It's a deviation from the book though, so automatically 'it's the stupidest thing ever!!!!!! I hate you D&D!!!!'

Please. It's embarrassing. They already have the biggest cast on TV. Think about that. Out of every single show on television, they have the biggest cast. They have 10 hours a season to fit all of these characters in. They need to find ways to include everyone or just cut them out completely. There choice was probably completely cut out the entire Dorne/sand snakes storyline and just show Jaime sitting around in Riverrun doing nothing or combine the two. With Jaime heading to Dorne, you now include him, Bronn, all of the Martells, and the sand snakes. People might think so far this isn't compelling, but it's a hell of a lot better than cutting the Dorne storyline and just showing Jaime wait outside of Riverrun feeling sorry for himself. This probably a very dumbed down example of their logic. For a huge casted TV series, it makes a good deal of sense, as does most of the other 'changes' they've made. Unfortunately, people choose not to apply logic to this show for some reason, though.

Everything isn't so black and white "book purist vs show apologist"

This isn't to try to pick some sort of "book purist" fight with you" I though the episode was good, but i think the acting is what saved and made the episode. I've never been a Sansa fan, and yet I still do not like anything they've done with her this season or the last(and yes I do understand they can't do everything in the book) and actually I've learned to keep book and show separate.

So May I ask you how would you explain several and I do mean several of my Non-book reader friends starting to question the writing,acting and plot of the show. It's clearly not the show it was some years ago and it's not because they're not sticking to the books, but I would just like to know what you think about non book readers who are even starting to complain about the inconsistency of characterization and plot? Etc, and I am by all means not attacking you. I would just like to see what you thought.

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Just coming in on this topic thread and from the first page, I just have to say: BRAVO jet199! There was so much about that post that was so amazing and so true.

QFT, all that. Not just epic on this topic, I think it's one of the better posts I have ever read, anywhere. And I've read a lot of posts.

Cheers. I think really we are dealing with the emotional fall out of this more than anything. People didn't want Sansa to get raped, I did not want Sansa to get rape and hated it. We have all this horror and anger that we have to pin on something but saying rape shouldn't be shown or shouldn't be shown happening to certain people is not the answer.

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I'm curious about this scene as well. To me, on re-watching, it looks like Sansa is looking at something/someone that is making her cry like that. My guess is that Ramsay has flayed someone at Winterfell and shown them to Sansa as a "present". Top candidates to my mind are Myranda, Walda, Brienne.

Would Sansa cry like this to see Myranda or Walda flayed? She doesn't seem to like either of them at this point, but horrors pile up and a woman who's suffered at a psychopath's hands could well be this upset to see another woman who's suffered worse at his hands. Or is it Brienne, whom Sansa was secretly hoping would come save her after she told Brienne to go to hell in front of Littlefinger?

Any other theories? I'm not saying it couldn't happen in the candle scene, but there has to be more to it. Sansa is looking at SOMEthing, and I doubt it's her candle going out in the tower.

It's the old lady.

I think it's mirroring that season one scene where Joff shows her Ned's head.

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It's the old lady.

I think it's mirroring that season one scene where Joff shows her Ned's head.

I hope not. That would be kind of bad TV, what is the point of all that parallelism? I didn't see the scene people are talking about, but, LOL, if they have the Boltons kill the old lady that's just more unnecessary piling on, the only person in the North who remembers gets killed. Whatever.

It's ideas like this, if it turns out to be true, which is why I generally confine myself to the rant and rave thread when it's not locked.

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Cheers. I think really we are dealing with the emotional fall out of this more than anything. People didn't want Sansa to get raped, I did not want Sansa to get rape and hated it. We have all this horror and anger that we have to pin on something but saying rape shouldn't be shown or shouldn't be shown happening to certain people is not the answer.

Well i agree, you do actually need to portray rape, crimes and everything, but i really don't trust D&D to handle rape representation properly. They already had the opportunity (too) many times to prove that they could do it without being utterly offensive,but they failed. Sansa's rape is sadly a small part of a much much bigger picture.

You can't deal with touchy subjects like rape like every other subjects

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I hope not. That would be kind of bad TV, what is the point of all that parallelism? I didn't see the scene people are talking about, but, LOL, if they have the Boltons kill the old lady that's just more unnecessary piling on, the only person in the North who remembers gets killed. Whatever.

It's ideas like this, if it turns out to be true, which is why I generally confine myself to the rant and rave thread when it's not locked.

I wish the R&R thread were still open.

Just rewatched the preview -did anyone else cringe at Stannis' line?

"We march to victory or we march to defeat. " Way to cover all the bases. He follows it up with "Either way we move forward " but it's still sounds clunky.

Edited by Winter's Knight
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I wish the R&R thread were still open.

Just rewatched the preview -did anyone else cringe at Stannis' line?

"We march to victory or we march to defeat. " Way to cover all the bases. He follows it up with "Either way we move forward " but it's still sounds clunky.

They probably learned that the Boltons married Sansa and anticipated that some Northern Lords are going to join them. Meanwhile, the winter must be hitting hard on them. I think that is making the way for Stannis to send Davos to bring some Northern Lords to his side. In his absence, Mel will try to burn Shireen. Stannis will not yield until the news from Davos arrives.

Meanwhile, Davos will discover that Rickon is alive and well with the Umbers. But before that, the news of his false death might be spread.

etc.

Edited by Mithras
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