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[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2


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I wish the R&R thread were still open.

Just rewatched the preview -did anyone else cringe at Stannis' line?

"We march to victory or we march to defeat. " Way to cover all the bases. He follows it up with "Either way we move forward " but it's still sounds clunky.

Quite! I should imagine that with dialogue like this, Stephen Dillane hopes he gets killed off very soon.

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Well i agree, you do actually need to portray rape, crimes and everything, but i really don't trust D&D to handle rape representation properly. They already had the opportunity (too) many times to prove that they could do it without being utterly offensive,but they failed. Sansa's rape is sadly a small part of a much much bigger picture.

You can't deal with touchy subjects like rape like every other subjects

That's the core reason I am outraged: I doubt their ability to handle it responsibly. Just look at Cersei-Jaime, the show went on. Look at Dany, the show went on and she fell in love with him and D+D showed up at ComicCon and proudly stated that they had wanted that experience to be as brutal as possible and they show just went on without anyone pausing to say, "but there, that girl just got raped and now she calls him her sun and stars." D+D are irresponsible and this will end badly.

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That's the core reason I am outraged: I doubt their ability to handle it responsibly. Just look at Cersei-Jaime, the show went on. Look at Dany, the show went on and she fell in love with him and D+D showed up at ComicCon and proudly stated that they had wanted that experience to be as brutal as possible and they show just went on without anyone pausing to say, "but there, that girl just got raped and now she calls him her sun and stars." D+D are irresponsible and this will end badly.

She falls in love w/Drogo in the books too, she's still wearing his pelt in Dance.

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I wish the R&R thread were still open.

Just rewatched the preview -did anyone else cringe at Stannis' line?

"We march to victory or we march to defeat. " Way to cover all the bases. He follows it up with "Either way we move forward " but it's still sounds clunky.

I didn't mind it. It's not as smooth as "we will march, and we will free Winterfell … or die in the attempt" but it's treason to include lines taken straight from the book, apparently, even if they're written perfect for tv.

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She falls in love w/Drogo in the books too, she's still wearing his pelt in Dance.

Fair enough. But I am still unaware of Martin stating that he wanted the experience of her marriage to go as brutally as possible, because reasons. d&d just inserted that rape, it seems to me, to shock us, and then didn't deal with the aftermath. Why make it as deliberately brutal as possible if they're just going to ignore it. At least Book Dany acknowledges that Drogo was not a kind man [wish I had the book to quote but I'm very sure it's there in Dance]. She knows something was wrong in that situation, she even contemplates suicide. TV Dany follows a different path. And I know that people deal with rape differently, but TV Dany doesn't deal with it at all.

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But apparently, no one has the balls to bash George for that.

That's because it was fundamentally different in execution. I think Dany could grow to love Khal Drogo (as much as we may find it imperfect from our modern viewpoint) precisely because she saw something different at the outset i.e., Khal Drogo didn't rape her on their wedding night in the book - he did his best to put her at her ease. After that, he didn't consider her, and was brutal with her, but she knows from the wedding night that there is another side to him and she takes steps to tap into that part of Khal Drogo.

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But apparently, no one has the balls to bash George for that.

I hesitate to get into this, because there are different viewpoints, but it's presented in a fundamentally different way. Drogo does not intend or purposefully abuse her, he treats her the way Dothraki treat their women...and she finds a way to gain significant agency in this situation, because Drogo is not Ramsay and he has actually no ill intent toward her, does not harm her ever out of malice or even knowingly. So, them finding a bond is not that hard to fathom.

He has I think taken a fair amount of heat for the age difference, and it seems that he does have some unusual ideas about relationships, what with the pitch letter that had Arya and Jon ending up in love.

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The whole thing with Drogo and Dany is not as simple as many want it to believe.



Drogo always cared for Dany, which was proved in their first sex scene together. But he didn't see her as an individual but "his wife". He never saw her as Daenerys but "his wife", and that meant that, while she received considerations from him, he owned her sexually as well. "You're my wife, seat next to me but now, turn around that I'm on the mood". That's what a "wife" meant for him because that's what he has been taught to believe. And incredibly, that's a scene the show got right. Dany made him realise she was not some sort of possession. Maybe it was the fact Dany was not a Dothraki but the daughter of an ancient culture that dominated Valyria, but Drogo got the message: you're not wife. You are Daenerys. That's how their relationship changed, she let him know "I'm not meant to be owned".



Cat described her first time with Ned as an obligation. For many women it's like that. It's their duty to have sex despite they don't want to. They might be able to protest and say "not tonight" or "maybe later" but they still are obligated to have sex with their husbands for the sake of having children. And there is a chance the sex is always unpleasant either emotionally or physically, at least at first. It was the same for Dany except that Drogo is less kind than many other lords because of what he is and definitely more violent. Yet, Dany grew to love him like many other women grow to love their husbands in time.


Edited by JonCon's Red Beard
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Did you write it? I'm not clear on that, or on Buzzfeed to be honest, LOL I'm off reading it now.

Great to see you, and by the way.......love your above post explaining some of the Dany and Drogo relationship, spot on.

yes, I wrote it. And thanks. I'll return more often once I finish some personal issues at home and work.

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The writing just isn't very good this season. Never mind being faithful to the books or not, the show lacks internal consistency and logic.

It makes little sense just in the context of the show that the Bolton's would betray the Lannisters by marrying a known fugitive wanted for Joffrey's murder. A decision that should cost them their position as Warden's of the North and logically resulting in reversing the royal decree legitimizing Ramsay, just to have a figure head Stark wife to pacify Northern Lords who don't even exist on the show. No northern lords attended the wedding. None have been discussed as problems when Roose is discussing fighting Stannis with Ramsay. Stannis doesn't seem particularly concerned with any of them. Sure he tried to get Jon Snow to take Winterfell, but he didn't bother sending Davos or any other envoys to any of these other lords nor make any mention of them being a concern when marching to war against the Boltons. And with no witnesses how would any of the northern lords even be able to validate this marriage?

Why would the Iron Throne send no help north? Stannis is a threat to Tyrells, Freys and Lannisters alike and there are no other threats discussed on the show for them to worry about. No resistance in the Riverlands on the show. No Greyjoy attacks on the Tyrell lands. With no other distractions than their petty court squables, it makes very little sense that they wouldn't send a combined attack to wipe Stannis out. What are their armies doing right now?

Then on the flip side what does giving Sansa to the Boltons gain Littlefinger? An excuse to go invade and become warden of the north because of the issues listed above? The thing is Cersei didn't ask for any proof of what Littlefinger said. There could have been no Sansa at all and the story would have played out the same way. And if she had asked for proof, what could he give her? What if she sent her own spies to confirm the story? Then it would take very minimal work to discover that Sansa arrived with Littlefinger to Winterfell, also destroying his plan. And we have to presume that the armies of the Vale are willing to go die for Littlefinger so he can become Warden of the North even though that makes little sense. Frankly I'm surprised Cersei didn't send the combined Lannister and Tyrell armies north right away under the belief that they are likely harboring Tyrion too.

The rape scene itself didn't offend me, but I do have concerns that D&D have a history of making changes and jumping back to the book story lines as if their changes never happened. Which in this case would mean Sansa gets over the rape by the end of the season as if it never happened and the rape is more about Theon's redemption than Sansa. You can also argue that no matter what Sansa does for "revenge" at this point, having her family murdered and being raped by the murderer's son makes for a rather hollow victory. It certainly wasn't unavoidable. Besides avoiding the at best questionable Sansa in Winterfell story line in the first place, they could have:

1) Had Sansa rescued before the bedding.
2) Had Stannis attack before the bedding.
3) Had Sansa seduce Ramsay rather than get raped by him (Sansa taking it as rape is more believable, but it would remove the rape controversy.)

4) Written a completely original story line that doesn't involve Ramsay marrying anyone, which they have chosen to do for lots of other characters.

And yes Jeyne goes thru the same and much worse in the books, but that is a very tiny subplot of two huge books, that happens to a character that readers have no attachment to. They decided Sansa's rape should be the climax of a show that is covering those two books in only 10 episodes with a character that many viewers care a lot about. As much stuff as they have cut or completely rewritten other story arcs, it's pretty hard to say they "had to" include the rape scene. Both Jeyne and Sansa getting raped is terrible, but it's like reading about a rape of a stranger in the news paper vs finding out one of your friends or family got raped as far as character attachment. Jeyne is also destroyed as a person after it, where I suspect Sansa will go on as if it never happened by two episodes from now.

Then we look at Dorne, where apparently they have the worst security in Westeros. Armed foreigners are able to just walk up to the prince and punch him and no guards are any where to be found until another group of assailants comes and fights loudly for several minutes. And what was the point? What exactly is the Sand Snakes plan? I thought they wanted to kill Myrcella, but they had a number of opportunities during the fight and didn't try once. Are they only allowed to kill people once they have buried them in the sand up to their necks? And Jaime has no plan even if they had successfully taken Myrcella out of the Water Gardens? I still don't understand why Jaime kidnapping Myrcella from Dorne would be less of a political disaster than having an army come with them to liberate Myrcella. Doran might not kill little girls, but it's hard to believe he wouldn't kill Jaime Lannister when he is fighting in the presence of the prince who Bronn assaulted.

Then we have the trial where the word of a male prostitute is taken over the word of the queen and the heir of high garden. He saw his birth mark! Congratulations squire, I imagine most squires have seen the birth marks on their knights in the process of serving them. Between seeing them dress and undress for battle, preparing their baths, doing their laundry, and tending their wounds, that's hardly compelling testimony. Good thing they aged up Tommen so he can watch slack jawed and do nothing as his wife and the first woman he has ever slept with gets imprisoned. Of course it wasn't Cersei who armed the faith, it was Tommen... but for all Margaery's scheming she hasn't convinced Tommen to just sign a new order disarming them?

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yes, I wrote it. And thanks. I'll return more often once I finish some personal issues at home and work.

The more I read, the more certain I was that it was you. :thumbsup:

Good luck with all your personal issues, you can count on me to hope for the best for one of the most enjoyable, and intelligent, posters around here. I have a few personal things going on as well, which is why my time here is sporadic. Here's hoping we get back to ASOIAF being a fun diversion from all the RL stuff, the show certainly isn't. Take care and thanks for sharing the buzzfeed post. :grouphug:

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Dany was never raped at all n the books.

The whole point of the wedding night scene is that all she needs to do is say no.

She then endures the rough treatment for a while because she's clueless and wants to be tough but as soon as she changes her strategy Drogo proves to be understanding and even compliant.

I don't think it works out too badly in the show, despite the wedding night rape, because they stuck to the text for the following episodes. Maybe it comes off more as taming a savage brute than just sexually educating a clueless but fundamentally good man, which is iffy on a number of levels, but heh...

At any rate, the scene that D&D so passionately wanted to change is only salvaged by keeping the later scenes untouched. Which tells me all I need to know.

Edited by Facebookless Man
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I've realized that while most fans seem to dislike E06, most fans seem to really like talking about it.

That's sort of the genius behind the show; even their worst decisions help keep GoT on our minds.

I'd say the greatness of the books comapred to the recent mediocrity of the show is why it's on my mind

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