[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'd say the greatness of the books comapred to the recent mediocrity of the show is why it's on my mind

I agree, the fact that the show comes from books that have brought most of us to this site to begin with is what keeps the subject going. If this was just a show on it's own.........I don't think I'd bother thinking, or posting, about it much at this point. It's quite frankly turned into a big bore that is only broken up by a bit of anger at times. I do find that sad, as I can see so much of the potential for actors bringing great story to my screen (I say story and not scenes because, IMO, that's one area that the show is confusing......scenes do not necessarily add up to equal a story, they just do little vignettes and sketches and scenes, not tell compellingly deep story anymore). Without the books to think about, without wondering on better ways that the story could have been adapted with changes as well.......I doubt the show at this point could inspire me to even bother reading much about it, much less talking about it as well. As a stand alone product, it can't even much inspire me to sit through an entire episode any more, I actually have to make myself finish watching lately.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Lady Fevre Dream

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Season 1 had several depictions of rape in it. What about season 1?

According to the majority of posters on here, GRRM is a rape-depiction connoisseur who only uses it as a meaningful writing device in the best possible ways, and also does not do anything for the sake of shock or gratuity. With Season 1 being very faithful to the source text, it's common consensus that those rapes were delightfully depicted. Duh.

[Rockroi]

JCRB, I read the article in your signature. I don't have Facebook so I can't comment. But I like it.

JCRB- that was an incredible article and reflects a lot of what I feel has destroyed the show. I am very "impressed."

[Lord Godric]

That's the core reason I am outraged: I doubt their ability to handle it responsibly. Just look at Cersei-Jaime, the show went on. Look at Dany, the show went on and she fell in love with him and D+D showed up at ComicCon and proudly stated that they had wanted that experience to be as brutal as possible and they show just went on without anyone pausing to say, "but there, that girl just got raped and now she calls him her sun and stars." D+D are irresponsible and this will end badly.

Dany was raped in the books too, and yet she turned around and fell in love with Drogo anyway. Yes, in the books it wasn't as brutal but a 13 year old girl being sold to a man is not capable of consenting. They made it more brutal and that may be irresponsible, but don't blame the rape itself on David and Dan, that was all GRRM.

[Rockroi]

Dany was raped in the books too, and yet she turned around and fell in love with Drogo anyway. Yes, in the books it wasn't as brutal but a 13 year old girl being sold to a man is not capable of consenting. They made it more brutal and that may be irresponsible, but don't blame the rape itself on David and Dan, that was all GRRM.

Yeah, I call bullshit.

The scene in the books bares no resemblance to the scene in the show, and its not just because it was "more brutal."

In the book, Dany consents; and because we know her so well in the books we now (boteh before that scene and after) that Dany was capable of consent (something not available to us in the 21st Century because we have "Strict Liability" Criminal Codes which define the action as a crime in and of itself without any mens rea necessary and where consent is no defense... and yes, I am actually a lawyer so I do know this stuff). In the book, Dany is an equal partner in that scene and her age is relatively immaterial.

[Lord Godric]

Yeah, I call bullshit.

The scene in the books bares no resemblance to the scene in the show, and its not just because it was "more brutal."

In the book, Dany consents; and because we know her so well in the books we now (boteh before that scene and after) that Dany was capable of consent (something not available to us in the 21st Century because we have "Strict Liability" Criminal Codes which define the action as a crime in and of itself without any mens rea necessary and where consent is no defense... and yes, I am actually a lawyer so I do know this stuff). In the book, Dany is an equal partner in that scene and her age is relatively immaterial.

It's not just her age. I refuse to believe that a woman literally sold to a man to be married is capable of consenting. Where is her power to deny the marriage and consummating the marriage? How could she deny Drogo sex? You can't just not call it rape because she wasn't crying during the situation. She was powerless.

[Rena Melville]

Yeah, I call bullshit.

The scene in the books bares no resemblance to the scene in the show, and its not just because it was "more brutal."

In the book, Dany consents; and because we know her so well in the books we now (boteh before that scene and after) that Dany was capable of consent (something not available to us in the 21st Century because we have "Strict Liability" Criminal Codes which define the action as a crime in and of itself without any mens rea necessary and where consent is no defense... and yes, I am actually a lawyer so I do know this stuff). In the book, Dany is an equal partner in that scene and her age is relatively immaterial.

Hum. I don't know. I agree with pretty much everything you said between the differences show/book and the portrayal of rape or anything, but Dany did get raped multiple times by Khal Drogo, to the point she was thinking about killing herself.

[Prince of the North]

[snip]

Great stuff in the open letter, JCRB! Thanks! :thumbsup:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's not just her age. I refuse to believe that a woman literally sold to a man to be married is capable of consenting. Where is her power to deny the marriage and consummating the marriage? How could she deny Drogo sex? You can't just not call it rape because she wasn't crying during the situation. She was powerless.

You're describing the situation for every other noble woman in Westeros.

[Lord Godric]

You're describing the situation for every other noble woman in Westeros.

Precisely. It's also historically accurate.

EDIT: Which, going back to Sansa, is all the more reason she should have been expecting sex with Ramsey and while I don't think the scene was added for shock value, as it has strong precedents in the world of Westeros, it was poor writing to have her unexpecting.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Lord Godric

[CoalAndCobalt]

First time poster, long time lurker. This episode drove me to register because it was so horrendously disappointing.

There were two aspects to the episode that I enjoyed. The scene with Jorah/Tyrion, and the scene in the House of Black and White. Everything else rubbed me the wrong way.

Faith Militant: I'm still annoyed that the Faith Militant have been taken from realistic to cartoony in the TV show. In real life, people turn to violently extremist groups when a) corruption becomes excessive, b) they no longer have food and entertainment (aka, "Bread and circuses") to keep them content. These groups usually provide a scapegoat to attack so they can make people feel better in the short term.

ASOIAF reflects that in the Brotherhood and the Faith Militant, but the TV show misses the point entirely. There's not much emphasis on the suffering of the common people, and what exists is portrayed from a class warfare perspective rather than being linked to the Faith Militant. It's as if D&D are taking their cues for the show from american politics by portraying class and religion as different "hot button" issues. Every time they're on it just sucks me out of it because they're so unrealistic and cartoony. Then there's the issue of Loras being reduced to "gay knight", again presumably because of american politics.

Sand Snakes: They're just so bad. I've said it on Reddit, but GRRM deconstructs tropes. He takes cliches or stereotypes and demonstrates how they would play out in real life, or how they would come to exist. As such each individual Sand Snake personality, while seemingly a stereotype at first, could very well lead into a deconstruction of that stereotype or an explanation of why people become that way. See Ned, the heroic protagonist of every series ever, who gets beheaded because of his noble deeds.

GRRM still has ample time to deconstruct the Sand Snakes, but the TV show is embracing that corny, cliche tropiness head on. In fact they take it farther by sanding away their personalities until just the trope is left. Obara is a brutish, powerful woman who seemingly loves to fight, Tyrene is the wicked one who feigns innocence, and Nymeria is the sexy femme fatale, and together they're the Sand Snakes. They're a cliche of the Charlie's Angels/Power Puff Girls trope, but at least they have individual personalities that can serve to wedge the trope apart. In the TV show they're the Sand Snakes first and foremost, and then they're divided into the cute one, the strong one, and the leader. Full on embracing the trope 100%.

This says nothing of the terrible dialogue or miserable way the scenes are filmed.

Winterfell: Not even going to address it. Not worth the effort.

[Takyon]

I think that we're really treading sketchy territory when we're referring to Daenerys' deflowering in ASOIF as consensual. This is a girl of 13 who was married off to man who was more than twice her age so I don't believe that a girl not yet grown has a proper understanding of consent, so regardless of Drogo's nurturing attitude, she was still being taken advantage of.

Regardless of whether or not Drogo physically forced himself upon her, Dany was put into a position where she barely had a choices at all. She had nowhere else to go and was groomed by her brother into being an asset for another man. I'll need to read over the book, probably, but I didn't get the impression that she lay with him because she wanted to; it's more like she lay with him because she felt like she had to.

[Facebookless Man]

He literally asked her for permission.

[Ser Quork]

You're describing the situation for every other noble woman in Westeros.

Pretty much. Catelyn's marriage to Ned was a political bargain, as was Dany's. Ned and Drogo were very different men, but they were able to forge a marriage from these bargains. Some never will, like fArya.

[dannyk65]

He literally asked her for permission.

No matter how many times you break it down and say it this way........some people will refuse to see it rationally.

[Facebookless Man]

After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine.It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her nipples with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her nipples stiffened and began to ache.He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question. She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

Clearly D&D's interpretation is just as valid as any.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Facebookless Man

[Ser Quork]

I think that we're really treading sketchy territory when we're referring to Daenerys' deflowering in ASOIF as consensual. This is a girl of 13 who was married off to man who was more than twice her age so I don't believe that a girl not yet grown has a proper understanding of consent, so regardless of Drogo's nurturing attitude, she was still being taken advantage of.

Regardless of whether or not Drogo physically forced himself upon her, Dany was put into a position where she barely had a choices at all. She had nowhere else to go and was groomed by her brother into being an asset for another man. I'll need to read over the book, probably, but I didn't get the impression that she lay with him because she wanted to; it's more like she lay with him because she felt like she had to.

I doubt any of us would disagree with you if this were a modern relationship, but it is set in a world analogous to medieval Britain, where the age of consent would be between 12-14, and consent could even be given by those as young as seven! Women were chattels, pretty much, first of their fathers/guardians and then of their husbands, and their life choices were pretty minimal. It is within these confines that women sought to make the best lives they could. It isn't free will, by any stretch, but Dany did make certain choices to try to gain some partnership within the marriage.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Ser Quork

[Lord Godric]

No matter how many times you break it down and say it this way........some people will refuse to see it rationally.

Because that is such a limited definition of rape it's almost scary.

[Winter's Knight]

GRRM Uses sketchy storytelling tropes: news at eleven.

I'm not sure what point you guys are makin

g?

People did complain about the Dany/Drogo thing on the book forums. Just as people complained about Mel's rape of Gendry and Jaime raping Cersei in the show forums.

Maybe people were more forgiving in season one when when the show had some semblence of storytelling. Maybe after the show keeps adding rape when none existed has taken away that goodwill.

[Winter's Knight]

He literally asked her for permission.

She. Was. Thirteen.

She says "no" and then what? Go back to Viserys? Hope the dothraki warlord backs off?

Jesus.