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[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2


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The writing just isn't very good this season. Never mind being faithful to the books or not, the show lacks internal consistency and logic.

It makes little sense just in the context of the show that the Bolton's would betray the Lannisters by marrying a known fugitive wanted for Joffrey's murder. A decision that should cost them their position as Warden's of the North and logically resulting in reversing the royal decree legitimizing Ramsay, just to have a figure head Stark wife to pacify Northern Lords who don't even exist on the show. No northern lords attended the wedding. None have been discussed as problems when Roose is discussing fighting Stannis with Ramsay. Stannis doesn't seem particularly concerned with any of them. Sure he tried to get Jon Snow to take Winterfell, but he didn't bother sending Davos or any other envoys to any of these other lords nor make any mention of them being a concern when marching to war against the Boltons. And with no witnesses how would any of the northern lords even be able to validate this marriage?

Why would the Iron Throne send no help north? Stannis is a threat to Tyrells, Freys and Lannisters alike and there are no other threats discussed on the show for them to worry about. No resistance in the Riverlands on the show. No Greyjoy attacks on the Tyrell lands. With no other distractions than their petty court squables, it makes very little sense that they wouldn't send a combined attack to wipe Stannis out. What are their armies doing right now?

Then on the flip side what does giving Sansa to the Boltons gain Littlefinger? An excuse to go invade and become warden of the north because of the issues listed above? The thing is Cersei didn't ask for any proof of what Littlefinger said. There could have been no Sansa at all and the story would have played out the same way. And if she had asked for proof, what could he give her? What if she sent her own spies to confirm the story? Then it would take very minimal work to discover that Sansa arrived with Littlefinger to Winterfell, also destroying his plan. And we have to presume that the armies of the Vale are willing to go die for Littlefinger so he can become Warden of the North even though that makes little sense. Frankly I'm surprised Cersei didn't send the combined Lannister and Tyrell armies north right away under the belief that they are likely harboring Tyrion too.

The rape scene itself didn't offend me, but I do have concerns that D&D have a history of making changes and jumping back to the book story lines as if their changes never happened. Which in this case would mean Sansa gets over the rape by the end of the season as if it never happened and the rape is more about Theon's redemption than Sansa. You can also argue that no matter what Sansa does for "revenge" at this point, having her family murdered and being raped by the murderer's son makes for a rather hollow victory. It certainly wasn't unavoidable. Besides avoiding the at best questionable Sansa in Winterfell story line in the first place, they could have:

1) Had Sansa rescued before the bedding.

2) Had Stannis attack before the bedding.

3) Had Sansa seduce Ramsay rather than get raped by him (Sansa taking it as rape is more believable, but it would remove the rape controversy.)

4) Written a completely original story line that doesn't involve Ramsay marrying anyone, which they have chosen to do for lots of other characters.

And yes Jeyne goes thru the same and much worse in the books, but that is a very tiny subplot of two huge books, that happens to a character that readers have no attachment to. They decided Sansa's rape should be the climax of a show that is covering those two books in only 10 episodes with a character that many viewers care a lot about. As much stuff as they have cut or completely rewritten other story arcs, it's pretty hard to say they "had to" include the rape scene. Both Jeyne and Sansa getting raped is terrible, but it's like reading about a rape of a stranger in the news paper vs finding out one of your friends or family got raped as far as character attachment. Jeyne is also destroyed as a person after it, where I suspect Sansa will go on as if it never happened by two episodes from now.

Then we look at Dorne, where apparently they have the worst security in Westeros. Armed foreigners are able to just walk up to the prince and punch him and no guards are any where to be found until another group of assailants comes and fights loudly for several minutes. And what was the point? What exactly is the Sand Snakes plan? I thought they wanted to kill Myrcella, but they had a number of opportunities during the fight and didn't try once. Are they only allowed to kill people once they have buried them in the sand up to their necks? And Jaime has no plan even if they had successfully taken Myrcella out of the Water Gardens? I still don't understand why Jaime kidnapping Myrcella from Dorne would be less of a political disaster than having an army come with them to liberate Myrcella. Doran might not kill little girls, but it's hard to believe he wouldn't kill Jaime Lannister when he is fighting in the presence of the prince who Bronn assaulted.

Then we have the trial where the word of a male prostitute is taken over the word of the queen and the heir of high garden. He saw his birth mark! Congratulations squire, I imagine most squires have seen the birth marks on their knights in the process of serving them. Between seeing them dress and undress for battle, preparing their baths, doing their laundry, and tending their wounds, that's hardly compelling testimony. Good thing they aged up Tommen so he can watch slack jawed and do nothing as his wife and the first woman he has ever slept with gets imprisoned. Of course it wasn't Cersei who armed the faith, it was Tommen... but for all Margaery's scheming she hasn't convinced Tommen to just sign a new order disarming them?

Very well put

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Even if Olyvar wasn't his squire, it's not like a birthmark is some kind of top secret info. Hell, as the manager of a brothel he could easily have got it from a female whore... Not to mention servants, maesters, nurses, or casual conversations between family members.

And that abyss of utter retardation is where the bar is set for every plot point in the show right now. Nothing is even trying to make any sense anymore except Arya, and that's hardly a coincidence.

Edited by Facebookless Man
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Even if Olyvar wasn't his squire, it's not like a birthmark is some kind of top secret info. Hell, as the manager of a brothel he could easily have got it from a female whore... Not to mention servants, maesters, nurses, or casual conversations between family members.

And that abyss of utter retardation is where the bar is set for every plot point in the show right now. Nothing is even trying to make any sense anymore except Arya, and that's hardly a coincidence.

I've also tried to figure out why Olyvar would confess guilt for the same "crime". Wouldn't he be in a cell next to Loras?

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2. That one scene was written in 1996, a much different time with very much different sensibilities.

Eh? I don't recall 1996 as having significantly different sensibilities from 2015.

As for the episode - I'm honestly waiting till the end of the season, in the hope that I'll be able to see it in context. I try to be fair-minded about these things.

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"The rape will make Sansa's revenge a hollow victory"...... So what? Why should it be a sweet victory? Sweet victories are a bit cliche. I think it is much more GoT-like to have bitter revenge than sweet revenge.

"D & D could have prevented the rape in several ways"..... Yes of course, but why should they? That's the kind of cliche writing that makes viewers believe (even if the knife is one centimeter from the hero's throat; even if an army is 100 times outnumbered, etc.) that a happy end is still possible. Such an unlikely escape can be used once or twice in a seven year show, but the default should be that if a hero is in trouble, s/he should be killed, raped, tortured, etc. Otherwise, it kills the suspense and the realism. It becomes a fairytale for children.

"They cut all sort of material, yet they include this rape scene"..... Yes, because D&D like this rape-scene. And why not? "But it is just for shock value!!!!" Yes, why not? Television is about eliciting emotions, that is the only reason for people to watch a show.

"We care more about Sansa than about Jeyne Poole"...... Yes, that's why it is more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Sansa raped than to have Jeyne raped. That's precisely the reason. Just like it was more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Ned beheaded than to have Lord Umber beheaded. These kind of decisions make GoT stick out and be memorable.

So D&D have already over the limit by 50 or so. How many times did Tyrion alone avoid death in a very contrived way?

@David: agreed. But that's a weakness i.m.h.o.

I wouldn't criticize D&D for doing it right once. It doesn't make sense.

More like, I wonder how Tyrion managed to avoid his own raping he inflicted upon helpless women of Essos. But I guess that in their interpretation, it would feel very forced if sex slaves didn't offer this charming drunken dwarf sex for free.

Some of their decisions are simply disgusting. Really, think about it:

Sansa:

Let's deny all logic and take this major female character out of her own plotline and put her in harm's way to be brutally raped by the worst psychopath possible. It's make the audience more invested in the WF story.

Tyrion:

Let's ignore major male characters highly problematic attitude to women and his going as far as threatening a helpless woman who has no choice but to have sex with him if he wills it and later fucking a beaten down, apathetic slave girl lying there like a rag doll. Instead let's make a hooker be charmed by this kind drunken dwarf and offer him free sex, an offer he nobly declines (of course!) because he still can't get over the memory of his beloved Shae or something.

I'd puke. :stillsick:

Edited by lojzelote
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More like, I wonder how Tyrion managed to avoid his own raping he inflicted upon helpless women of Essos. But I guess that in their interpretation, it would feel very forced if sex slaves didn't offer this charming drunken dwarf sex for free.

Some of their decisions are simply disgusting. Really, think about it:

Sansa:

Let's deny all logic and take this major female character out of her own plotline and put her in harm's way to be brutally raped by the worst psychopath possible. It's make the audience more invested in the WF story.

Tyrion:

Let's ignore major male characters highly problematic attitude to women and his going as far as threatening a helpless woman who has no choice but to have sex with him if he wills it and later fucking a beaten down, apathetic slave girl lying there like a rag doll. Instead let's make a hooker be charmed by this kind drunken dwarf and offer him free sex, an offer he nobly declines (of course!) because he still can't get over the memory of his beloved Shae or something.

I'd puke. :stillsick:

That's it. Convenience from D&D. :drunk:

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"We care more about Sansa than about Jeyne Poole"...... Yes, that's why it is more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Sansa raped than to have Jeyne raped. That's precisely the reason. Just like it was more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Ned beheaded than to have Lord Umber beheaded. These kind of decisions make GoT stick out and be memorable.

By that logic, the best course of action would have been to have Tyrion raped. Clearly THE fan favorite - most attachment - most resonance with viewers.

ETA: Sorry, I see that has been covered already.

Edited by Mindwalker
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More like, I wonder how Tyrion managed to avoid his own raping he inflicted upon helpless women of Essos. But I guess that in their interpretation, it would feel very forced if sex slaves didn't offer this charming drunken dwarf sex for free.

Some of their decisions are simply disgusting. Really, think about it:

Sansa:

Let's deny all logic and take this major female character out of her own plotline and put her in harm's way to be brutally raped by the worst psychopath possible. It's make the audience more invested in the WF story.

Tyrion:

Let's ignore major male characters highly problematic attitude to women and his going as far as threatening a helpless woman who has no choice but to have sex with him if he wills it and later fucking a beaten down, apathetic slave girl lying there like a rag doll. Instead let's make a hooker be charmed by this kind drunken dwarf and offer him free sex, an offer he nobly declines (of course!) because he still can't get over the memory of his beloved Shae or something.

I'd puke. :stillsick:

And with this background, Sansa mentioning how nice Tyrion was right before the rape is disgusting. It's like saying, Too bad for her not wanting The Nice Guy She Should Have Wanted, see what it gets her!

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And with this background, Sansa mentioning how nice Tyrion was right before the rape is disgusting. It's like saying, Too bad for her not wanting The Nice Guy She Should Have Wanted, see what it gets her!

Someone remind me :didn't she and tyrion get on in the show?

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Well, it's hard to blame Sansa for not trusting a Lannister no matter how nice he might be to her personally. He still comes from the family that had her father beheaded and orchestrated the murders of her brother and mother and held her prisoner before forcing her into marriage.

Not saying your saying this Philpenn, but there are people cheering the idea that Sansa will be part of murdering Fat Walda and her unborn child as revenge against the Boltons/Freys who also think Sansa was foolish not to trust Tyrion - but doesn't the same logic apply to him? He was innocent of the Lannisters' crimes against her family just as Walda is innocent of the Freys' and Boltons' crimes against her family. So I would also find it a horrible development to see Sansa do anything to harm Walda.

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Reading the way some posters are bashing this episode based purely on shocking visual elements, I find it to be bizarre to say the least.


1. Personally, I wouldn't call Sansa's first sexual experience with Ramsay to be "rape" per say, but it was unsavory and nothing to defend as noble or praiseworthy. However, lots of people on this forum seem to be intent on calling it a "rape", so if there is going to be some mass movement to redefine the word, then please just say that is what the agenda is. As for the act itself, producers D&D would be wise to ignore these accusations and continue to produce the best show for what GoT is intended to be.

One of the most unfortunate repercussions of the show being such a global sensation is the fact that too many liberal, Hollywood types want to step in and push Martin to the side while infusing the same, boring formulaic tv scripts that lead to shows being canceled. The Wire was great, but it did lag a bit in the story for a rather odd period during the middle of the series. And at least House had the writer's strike to blame bad writing on.

Sansa's..."rape", was supposed to represent the total destruction of innocence in Westeros. Don't get me wrong, she is a spoiled brat and she caused the death of her father, but she had dreams that were pure and good. The dashing prince coming to sweep her off her feet and take her away to a castle. Lemon cakes and tea served for her and her handmaidens. A strong son born to her lord and king, her line continuing on for ages to come.

We are quick to forget that Westeros history points to there being a time like that in ages past, but as society slowly crumbled, such ideas became dreams dreamt by empty-headed children, just like Sansa.

How far has Westeros fallen, when people now ridicule those with dreams of songs and flowers and lemon cakes at midday? Sansa, though a moron, represented innocence. Ramsay's brutality, and his ability to marry her and lawfully carry out his brutality on a member of the most noble house in the north, with no resistance, is symbolic of the decline and fall of House Stark, and the North in general. Theon, an Ironborn, the bringer of Winterfell's destruction, himself humbled and emasculated at the hands of Ramsay Bolton. The scene is awful, terrible, tragic, heartbreaking, and disgusting. That is the story of Winterfell. This is the heralding of the end of the north.

Wow, but some posters had to go out of their way to force their views down the throats of others, screaming sexism and making barely legal public statements about D&D's sexual proclivities and reasoning for including this scene. To make judgments without really thinking about the complex world which has been painstakingly planned and expanded for more than a decade, calling a still in progress manifestation a blatant and intentional declaration of sexism and silly made up terms like "empowerment through rape" is a disgusting practice that I feel should also be carefully watched by mods.


2. Yes, the writing is downright goofy at times, but please stop complaining about how Lady Olenna and the Tyrells "did nothing" about Loras and Margaery being taken away. The events happening at King's Landing are a series of highly complex, politically relevant moves made between different Houses vying for power. Lady Olenna can;t just say "Guards, seize them!!!" or something out of a Saturday morning cartoon, because they are literally surrounded by maybe fifty or sixty Faith Militant, hanging out outside the room, in the hallways, and outside guarding the entranceway. The Kingsguard and soldiers present could probably cut their way through a few dozen or so no problem, but then they would also have to contend with the crowd of supporters outside who would form up into another angry mob.

Also, you must remember that the place of Inquisition is more than likely at a holy space, so the guards having weapons at all would most likely be a sign of respect or a false sense of security for the nobles who would refuse to show up if they thought they would be in danger too.

As for the ridiculous "WHERZ DA TY-RELL ARMEE?" question, Olenna is not the head of the Tyrell command. She wields heavy influence, yes. But that bumbling bumblefuck (or is he?) Mace Tyrell holds that honor. Oh yeah, and remember how Cersei managed to have him "escorted" by Ser Meryn supposedly on a sensitive diplomatic mission to the Iron Bank? Well, I guess a lot of people have forgotten about Cerise's penchant for having people randomly locked away in cells. She conspired to have Marg and Loras thrown in jail, and it's reasonable to assume she conspired to have Mace secretly locked up and held hostage, so if the Tyrell army decided to attack, they would be stopped from doing so? I wonder how in depth people even bother to watch this series. I imagine for some people it involves staring at the screen with a glazed look in their eye, followed by a sudden spark of interest if Jaimie's sword glints in the Dornish sun just right.

As for the Tyrell army itself, Olenna nor Mace can just waltz up to the gates of king's Landing and demand they open up. Remember, these people got sacked by the current ruling class a few years ago, and if the Tyrells were to attack, it would be high treason, unless they were to take the throne.

If they take the throne, its not like every House and kingdom will recognize their claim. They will be called usurpers and most will rebel and refuse to obey. Westeros would sink into chaos, which is the reason the Tyrell's need to use Tommen to sire a male heir so that the Tyrells can get the throne through years of patience and without bloodshed, which has always been their way. Like seriously, I read about people accusing D&D not reading the books, but how about posters with negative comments read a history book or watch robin hood or something to get an understanding of how a situation like that would work. You don't just sit on the Iron Throne like some game of musical chairs and then you "win" the Seven Kingdoms.


As for Dorne...well...another post perhaps. :frown5:

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Reading the way some posters are bashing this episode based purely on shocking visual elements, I find it to be bizarre to say the least.


1. Personally, I wouldn't call Sansa's first sexual experience with Ramsay to be "rape" per say, but it was unsavory and nothing to defend as noble or praiseworthy. However, lots of people on this forum seem to be intent on calling it a "rape", so if there is going to be some mass movement to redefine the word, then please just say that is what the agenda is. As for the act itself, producers D&D would be wise to ignore these accusations and continue to produce the best show for what GoT is intended to be.

One of the most unfortunate repercussions of the show being such a global sensation is the fact that too many liberal, Hollywood types want to step in and push Martin to the side while infusing the same, boring formulaic tv scripts that lead to shows being canceled. The Wire was great, but it did lag a bit in the story for a rather odd period during the middle of the series. And at least House had the writer's strike to blame bad writing on.

Sansa's..."rape", was supposed to represent the total destruction of innocence in Westeros. Don't get me wrong, she is a spoiled brat and she caused the death of her father, but she had dreams that were pure and good. The dashing prince coming to sweep her off her feet and take her away to a castle. Lemon cakes and tea served for her and her handmaidens. A strong son born to her lord and king, her line continuing on for ages to come.

We are quick to forget that Westeros history points to there being a time like that in ages past, but as society slowly crumbled, such ideas became dreams dreamt by empty-headed children, just like Sansa.

How far has Westeros fallen, when people now ridicule those with dreams of songs and flowers and lemon cakes at midday? Sansa, though a moron, represented innocence. Ramsay's brutality, and his ability to marry her and lawfully carry out his brutality on a member of the most noble house in the north, with no resistance, is symbolic of the decline and fall of House Stark, and the North in general. Theon, an Ironborn, the bringer of Winterfell's destruction, himself humbled and emasculated at the hands of Ramsay Bolton. The scene is awful, terrible, tragic, heartbreaking, and disgusting. That is the story of Winterfell. This is the heralding of the end of the north.

Wow, but some posters had to go out of their way to force their views down the throats of others, screaming sexism and making barely legal public statements about D&D's sexual proclivities and reasoning for including this scene. To make judgments without really thinking about the complex world which has been painstakingly planned and expanded for more than a decade, calling a still in progress manifestation a blatant and intentional declaration of sexism and silly made up terms like "empowerment through rape" is a disgusting practice that I feel should also be carefully watched by mods.


2. Yes, the writing is downright goofy at times, but please stop complaining about how Lady Olenna and the Tyrells "did nothing" about Loras and Margaery being taken away. The events happening at King's Landing are a series of highly complex, politically relevant moves made between different Houses vying for power. Lady Olenna can;t just say "Guards, seize them!!!" or something out of a Saturday morning cartoon, because they are literally surrounded by maybe fifty or sixty Faith Militant, hanging out outside the room, in the hallways, and outside guarding the entranceway. The Kingsguard and soldiers present could probably cut their way through a few dozen or so no problem, but then they would also have to contend with the crowd of supporters outside who would form up into another angry mob.

Also, you must remember that the place of Inquisition is more than likely at a holy space, so the guards having weapons at all would most likely be a sign of respect or a false sense of security for the nobles who would refuse to show up if they thought they would be in danger too.

As for the ridiculous "WHERZ DA TY-RELL ARMEE?" question, Olenna is not the head of the Tyrell command. She wields heavy influence, yes. But that bumbling bumblefuck (or is he?) Mace Tyrell holds that honor. Oh yeah, and remember how Cersei managed to have him "escorted" by Ser Meryn supposedly on a sensitive diplomatic mission to the Iron Bank? Well, I guess a lot of people have forgotten about Cerise's penchant for having people randomly locked away in cells. She conspired to have Marg and Loras thrown in jail, and it's reasonable to assume she conspired to have Mace secretly locked up and held hostage, so if the Tyrell army decided to attack, they would be stopped from doing so? I wonder how in depth people even bother to watch this series. I imagine for some people it involves staring at the screen with a glazed look in their eye, followed by a sudden spark of interest if Jaimie's sword glints in the Dornish sun just right.

As for the Tyrell army itself, Olenna nor Mace can just waltz up to the gates of king's Landing and demand they open up. Remember, these people got sacked by the current ruling class a few years ago, and if the Tyrells were to attack, it would be high treason, unless they were to take the throne.

If they take the throne, its not like every House and kingdom will recognize their claim. They will be called usurpers and most will rebel and refuse to obey. Westeros would sink into chaos, which is the reason the Tyrell's need to use Tommen to sire a male heir so that the Tyrells can get the throne through years of patience and without bloodshed, which has always been their way. Like seriously, I read about people accusing D&D not reading the books, but how about posters with negative comments read a history book or watch robin hood or something to get an understanding of how a situation like that would work. You don't just sit on the Iron Throne like some game of musical chairs and then you "win" the Seven Kingdoms.


As for Dorne...well...another post perhaps. :frown5:

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The other problem that hasn't really been discussed regarding Tyrion being offered free sex by a whore is if he can do that, why does he need whores in the first place? If women want him even when he has no money, shouldn't he be charming normal women of westeros? At least as many as any other noble? It works against the fact that in the books he isn't an attractive man even before losing his nose. He might be charismatic and witty, but he feels like the only way a woman is going to want him is if he pays for her. That's part of why learning the truth about Tysha was so devestating.



Ramsay raping Sansa is "realisitic" to the situation they put her in, but it's just funny that a whore who just met Tyrion offering him free sex doesn't matter whether it's realistic or not.


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