[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

[greensleeves]

.....

I know I haven't been around for a while, but this is some kind of brilliant satire account, right? This whole post is like some baby-boomer's drug-fueled hallucination.

[Woman of War]

Wow, I am frankly shocked to see Amanda Marcotte of all people against the tide of Internet outrage.

Only dead fish swim with the tide ;)

No, seriously, I admire her courage. Only I think her well reasoned opinion is not so unpopular among those who do not spend all day in web debates.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/

Edited May 22, 2015 by Woman of War

[OldGimletEye]

I know I haven't been around for a while, but this is some kind of brilliant satire account, right? This whole post is like some baby-boomer's drug-fueled hallucination.

Yes, it's meant to mock the article, which I find to be utter horseshit. And I'm not a baby boomer and I don't do drugs. I take a big issue about how Sansa married the Boltons to take Winterfell back. I think the whole scenario is just ridiculous

Edited May 22, 2015 by OldGimletEye

[greensleeves]

Yes, it's meant to mock the article, which I find to be utter horseshit.

Lol. You can never be sure with some of the posters around here.

[OldGimletEye]

Lol. You can never be sure with some of the posters around here.

Also, it's meant to mock Cogman's explanation as well.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yesterday I literally had some one deny that Sansa was crying at all during the scene. The lengths some people will go to excuse the writing here...it's some of the worst cognitive dissonance I've ever seen.

I'm sure there are some who would say that it's ok. Mostly virgins cry...

Because Edmure and Roslin's situation is just the same as Sansa and Ramsay's right?

[greensleeves]

Also, it's meant to mock Cogman's explanation as well.

I haven't seen his explanation, but now I'm going to have to look it up.

[Le Cygne]

I'm sure there are some who would say that it's ok. Mostly virgins cry...

... and scream in pain with every thrust by a woman-hating psycho rapist.

The rape of a teenage virgin was more graphic than most of the consensual sex scenes.

[Chebyshov]

I'm just going to quote Julia Martell's wonderful response to that raw article from here:

They’re doing it again….

I’m almost afraid to write this because people tend to miss the point when you say things like this and it IS a fairly nuanced thing but…

I agree with most of this article. I would agree with the VAST majority of it IF this was an article about A Song of Ice and Fire. I have in the past, defended the inclusion of depiction (DEPICTION) of violence, including sexual violence against women (and men) in the series specifically because I think that, in the vast majority of cases, Martin does not depict it gratuitously, but to a clear narrative and thematic purpose. A purpose that is, in my deeply considered opinion, ultimately both feminist and anti-violent.

I don’t think Westeros should be a squeaky clean, wonderful place for the same reason I don’t think you should censor the n-word out of Tom Sawyer. Pretending these things never happen, never did happen, or never could happen does not challenge rape culture, or patriarchy, or racism or any of the other things in society I wish could be better, it just ignores them. And what, I ask you, does that accomplish?

One of the main functions of all literature, and especially Speculative Fiction, is to make the reader/watcher just detached enough from her own context to be able to critically examine it, and it doing so, examine her own values and assumptions. And, to be perfectly honest, the hours I’ve spend reflecting on Cersei’s hatred for her own womanhood, or on how Catelyn’s constantly stops just short of actually challenging the patriarchal role of idealized motherhood she’s determined to live up, or Sam’s inability to recognize his own strength because he fails to conform to what a man “should” be, or Arianne’s determination to not be infantalized, have taught me more about feminism than all Woman’s Studies classes I’ve ever taken.

So no, I’m not saying that a woman should never be a victim in a work of fiction, that is not my objection to last Sunday’s scene. I object to it because it WAS gratuitous. I object to it because we’re not talking about A Song of Ice and Fire, we are talking about Game of Thrones.

I object to paragraphs like this:

No. That is not what Game of Thrones does. That is what George RR Martin did. Twenty years ago in the case of Ned. Why is GoT getting credit for it when they bother to stick to the source material? Because it’s increasingly becoming an exception, in any case. Over the past four seasons, at least, this “adaptation” has consistently contorted and twisted the source material and shoved back in the very cliches and contrivances than Mr. Martin has worked so hard to avoid. (and yeah, I’m looking at you Robblisa!) And poor Mr. Martin gets the blame when they diverge. Because it interesting to note that they have just done the one thing he says he will never do: the on-screen rape of a POV character. And why will he never do it? Because it’s tasteless.
What happened on Sunday was not Mr. Martin’s doing. The people behind Game of Thrones BENT OVER BACKWARD specifically to create a situation where Sansa Stark could be raped. And sure, within the context of the dumbass situation they created, it makes sense that Ramsay would act the way he did, but they do not get a free pass for created the situation. And this is not the first time in the series, not even the first time this season, they have injected problematic sex into the story that wasn’t there in the source material without any overwhelming need to do so.

If they think Sansa’s aFfC arc is so horrible, there are other things she could have done this season, there are even other roles she could have fulfilled in Winterfell if it was so essential that she go there. They CHOSE this one. And they DID NOT have to.

And that’s why the excuse that “Martin did it to Jeyne Poole” just doesn’t fly. Make no mistake, they wanted this to happen. These are people who are willing to fight with the Croatian government to be able to make Cersei walk naked through the streets, but not to spend the extra few hours in the writers’s room to actually come up with a well-written way of getting her there.

[protar]

I'm sure there are some who would say that it's ok. Mostly virgins cry...

Because Edmure and Roslin's situation is just the same as Sansa and Ramsay's right?

Oh I've seen that one as well. "A woman's first time isn't supposed to be pleasant."

[Winter's Knight]

If you are referring to me, I hope you understand that I wasn't serious. I was horrified by that scene. However, there is an argument out there that Sansa choose to marry the Boltons. A scenario so ridiculous it needs to be mocked relentlessly. And a point made by the article, which I found to be ridiculous.

Whelp I am so sorry. I completely misread your post.

English and I are not getting along today. :blush:

ETA really rereading your comment I am horrified at how badly I misread it. :dunce: :leaving:

Edited May 22, 2015 by Winter's Knight

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh I've seen that one as well. "A woman's first time isn't supposed to be pleasant."

Of course it can be unpleasant. Mine definitely was. I cried after and my then bf hugged me and comforted me. And sex between us was later good. The relationship eventually deteriorated but not for that.

I've actually written a scene including a girl having sex for the first time. The pov is the guy's who notices she has not enjoyed it as much as he wanted or expected once they finish. Writing her as a wanton sex goddess would be incredibly unrealistic. But she's not either a victim who has been abused.

[Lord Damian]

Yes, it's meant to mock the article, which I find to be utter horseshit. And I'm not a baby boomer and I don't do drugs. I take a big issue about how Sansa married the Boltons to take Winterfell back. I think the whole scenario is just ridiculous

That is the plain truth, the "breeding them out" theory and any other makes no sense whatsoever.

[OldGimletEye]

Whelp I am so sorry. I completely misread your post.

English and I are not getting along today. :blush:

ETA really rereading your comment I am horrified at how badly I misread it. :dunce: :leaving:

No worries. Perhaps, the fault is mine. Rather than trying to mock the article and, more generally, the idea that Sansa went into the marriage with eyes wide open and to take back Winterfell and that it was a plausible scenario, I should have made a more direct criticism. At any rate, I find the whole idea to be extremely dumb and it annoys me to no end.

Edited May 22, 2015 by OldGimletEye

[Chebyshov]

The only potential problem with a Sansa marriage with Boltons is that the Boltons or their loyalist may survive the Sansa marriage and decide to retaliate by marrying off Sansa to LF or Robert Arryn, potentially causing mass destruction in the Vale. But, given the Bolton's weakened state, they are not likely to survive Sansa's marriage to them. Therefore, Sansa's marriage to the Boltons was a completely rational action, as the risk of it backfiring were very small.

I'm crying :rofl:

[dannyk65]

OldGimletEye, on 22 May 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

The only potential problem with a Sansa marriage with Boltons is that the Boltons or their loyalist may survive the Sansa marriage and decide to retaliate by marrying off Sansa to LF or Robert Arryn, potentially causing mass destruction in the Vale. But, given the Bolton's weakened state, they are not likely to survive Sansa's marriage to them. Therefore, Sansa's marriage to the Boltons was a completely rational action, as the risk of it backfiring were very small.

I'm crying :rofl:

Yep, me too. Pure bliss to my eyes

[Lord Damian]

I'm just going to quote Julia Martell's wonderful response to that raw article from here:

That is powerful and to the point. Very truthful and they had this in mind for the actress when she was still 14 years old in planning for season 5, 4 years down the road. Sick.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

OldGimletEye, on 22 May 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yep, me too. Pure bliss to my eyes

Yup, once I realized it was safe to look past the term 'crybabies' thanks to the posters name and avitar, I was LMAO at all the Sansa Marriage Options through political history. I can fully understand some having trouble, though, as it's been really weird around here lately.

Whelp I am so sorry. I completely misread your post.

English and I are not getting along today. :blush:

ETA really rereading your comment I am horrified at how badly I misread it. :dunce: :leaving:

English is my first language, and it took me awhile to give the post a chance. Don't feel bad, I'm always impressed with the multilingual posters around here. Let me correct that.......English is my ONLY language, and it took me a minute or two. :cheers:

[Prince of the North]

If you are referring to me, I hope you understand that I wasn't serious. I was horrified by that scene. However, there is an argument out there that Sansa choose to marry the Boltons. A scenario so ridiculous it needs to be mocked relentlessly. And a point made by the article, which I found to be ridiculous.

Heh, you really had me going there! I didn't read your entire post because I didn't get that you were being sarcastic (and, thus, the post was confusing me given what I've read of your other posting on this subject). Whew! Glad you were being sarcastic!

And I completely agree with you. Sansa was shown, realistically/logically, as having NO choice (and just saying she did without showing it, too, is the height of incompetent storytelling). If Sansa really had a choice to go to Winterfell, why did they have Littlefinger not tell her what they were doing until he had her all the way to Moat Cailin?! Are we supposed to believe Sansa could have said "No, let's go back to the Vale" and Littlefinger would have just said "OK"?! That certainly wouldn't be very realistic or logical. If Sansa really had a choice they would have shown Littlefinger telling her of the idea/plan to marry Ramsey while they were still in the Vale and, you know, actually showing Sansa choosing whether to go or not. Also, I hate how stupid they made Sansa seem in that situation: as if she didn't even realize they were travelling north? Or even begin to suspect they may be going to Winterfell, etc.? That certainly didn't help indicate a new-found ability to "play the game", developing her own agency/power, etc. to me either.

[Le Cygne]

Since Vietnam, fears of inadvertent Sansa marriages weighed heavily on the public mind, given the utter destruction that a Sansa marriage can bring. Films such "The Day After" began to be made. The "Day After" explored life in an American small town, devastated by a Sansa marriage, after the United States and its Nato allies exchanged Sansa marriages with the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact allies. The film, "War Games" depicted a large and powerful computer almost starting a devastating war when the computer seemingly, on its own with no human input, began to arrange a Sansa marriage within the Soviet Union. Fortunately, the computer was stopped from completing the Sansa marriage within the Soviet Union, which would have caused mass destruction there, and would have likely caused the Soviet Union to retaliate by arranging its own Sansa marriage within the United States, causing mass carnage there as well.

Just quoting a little, but the whole thing was perfect. Thank you, I needed to laugh. :lol: