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[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2


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OldGimletEye, on 22 May 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:snapback.png




Since Vietnam, fears of inadvertent Sansa marriages weighed heavily on the public mind, given the utter destruction that a Sansa marriage can bring. Films such "The Day After" began to be made. The "Day After" explored life in an American small town, devastated by a Sansa marriage, after the United States and its Nato allies exchanged Sansa marriages with the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact allies. The film, "War Games" depicted a large and powerful computer almost starting a devastating war when the computer seemingly, on its own with no human input, began to arrange a Sansa marriage within the Soviet Union. Fortunately, the computer was stopped from completing the Sansa marriage within the Soviet Union, which would have caused mass destruction there, and would have likely caused the Soviet Union to retaliate by arranging its own Sansa marriage within the United States, causing mass carnage there as well.







Just quoting a little, but the whole thing was perfect. Thank you, I needed to laugh. :lol:




Yep. Such goodness


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I'm just going to quote Julia Martell's wonderful response to that raw article from here:

This post reminds me of tweet I saw yesterday............in relation to other story telling matter, I believe. But, it's appropriate for the manner in which D&D have put Sansa in Jeyne's place in service to Theon and even Ramsey's story. Every once in awhile, one can find a gem on twitter.

Once again, the plot should fit the character, the character shouldn't have to bend like Gumby to fit the plot. #Writing101

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I know. I'm just pointing it out for those who say it made sense narratively. Even if we take aside the book and the original storyline, it does not make sense. It's a mess. And yes, the rape is not the problem. Because I believe they show should have included the one scene with Tyrion and the red haired slave. Not as in the show, but as in the books, when Tyrion forced himself to her. Because that one scene was about Tyrion. That's the reason such girl has no name or face or anything. Because we, as readers, are meant to know how low Tyrion has sunk and that's the bottom he needed to resurface. Because after that, he's kidnapped by Jorah and realise how his problems aren't caused by him being a dwarf but because his own vices and self-pity. But that they cut because Tyrion couldn't look bad :dunno:

Ironically, that scene, done right, could be Emmy worth :dunno:

They replaced that rape scene with vomiting on a carpet. St Tyrion cannot sleep with a woman with no affection and his wits will always outweigh his physical misgivings. I feel D or D are channeling their college years via St Tyrion. This is mental abuse. I don't care for their college frustrations.

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This post reminds me of tweet I saw yesterday............in relation to other story telling matter, I believe. But, it's appropriate for the manner in which D&D have put Sansa in Jeyne's place in service to Theon and even Ramsey's story. Every once in awhile, one can find a gem on twitter.

Once again, the plot should fit the character, the character shouldn't have to bend like Gumby to fit the plot. #Writing101

this is actually perfect for...every plot this year.

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Only dead fish swim with the tide ;)

No, seriously, I admire her courage. Only I think her well reasoned opinion is not so unpopular among those who do not spend all day in web debates.http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/

Defending apologists with Strawman arguements, well there's a surprise.

The major problem with her article is that it only tackled a very small section with what was wrong with that scene. Her first statement about counter arguements being weak because there are so many is a terrible Strawman. It is not as if people are putting an arguement forward and when it is debunked and they are trying something else, but that there are so many bloody arguements against the scene, most of which she is ignoring btw. Very few people I have seen write about this are upset there was a rape on TV and yet that is one of the main accusations against those who are horrified by the scene.

Honestly it comes across as a woman who just does not like Sansa's character because she is feminine. A bit of a 'Break the Cutie' trope advocate.

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Heh, you really had me going there! I didn't read your entire post because I didn't get that you were being sarcastic (and, thus, the post was confusing me given what I've read of your other posting on this subject). Whew! Glad you were being sarcastic!

And I completely agree with you. Sansa was shown, realistically/logically, as having NO choice (and just saying she did without showing it, too, is the height of incompetent storytelling). If Sansa really had a choice to go to Winterfell, why did they have Littlefinger not tell her what they were doing until he had her all the way to Moat Cailin?! Are we supposed to believe Sansa could have said "No, let's go back to the Vale" and Littlefinger would have just said "OK"?! That certainly wouldn't be very realistic or logical. If Sansa really had a choice they would have shown Littlefinger telling her of the idea/plan to marry Ramsey while they were still in the Vale and, you know, actually showing Sansa choosing whether to go or not. Also, I hate how stupid they made Sansa seem in that situation: as if she didn't even realize they were travelling north? Or even begin to suspect they may be going to Winterfell, etc.? That certainly didn't help indicate a new-found ability to "play the game", developing her own agency/power, etc. to me either.

I disagree here. Unless the show resets itself every year, they did show Sansa having a choice, or at least the power to make choices. They showed her having an upper hand over LF. She could have said "make me marry against my will and I'll tell everybody what you did". That was the whole point of her Darth Sansa scene. Or so it should have been. That scene is now pointless.

She didn't even need to know Ramsay was a monster. ShowSansa keeps seeing herself as a pawn whose only value is marriage. BookSansa objected this: she was ready to tell Lysa she's not a child to be married around, a kind of protest we don't even see from Margaery. What was the point of having the Darth Sansa scene if Sansa still believes her only power or value is her hymen and not the fact she has information that can ends up with LF's schemes once and for all?

Last season she was shown being aware of her power. This season, they showed her simply believing LF was to trust. This is my question, why she trusted him now? The whole point of letting him now SHE owned HIS ass (and not the other way around) is to show us, the audience, that she does not trust him. You don't make those kind of games on someone you trust. You don't say "I trust you, but... just in case, I have weapons to make you do my will". She was made aware of her power to manipulate HIM. You don't manipulate someone you TRUST.

If they had followed the one storyline they created, then her marriage to Ramsay had been a tease: "No, Petyr. I won't marry the man who killed my family. I have power over the Vale and over you. If you want me to go, we go together or they will know what you did". That would have been a more consistent follow up of her Darth Sansa arc and scene.

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this is actually perfect for...every plot this year.

I'm all for going green, but it's not really conducive to good story.

http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/3408158_f520.jpg

That gumby tweet does sum up most of my issues with current television and how it goes wrong.

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream
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No worries. Perhaps, the fault is mine. Rather than trying to mock the article and, more generally, the idea that Sansa went into the marriage with eyes wide open and to take back Winterfell and that it was a plausible scenario, I should have made a more direct criticism. At any rate, I find the whole idea to be extremely dumb and it annoys me to no end.

No sadly it it is a testament to the kind of awful rape apology we have seen on the Internet regarding this episode that it could be taken seriously.

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I disagree here. Unless the show resets itself every year, they did show Sansa having a choice, or at least the power to make choices. They showed her having an upper hand over LF. She could have said "make me marry against my will and I'll tell everybody what you did". That was the whole point of her Darth Sansa scene. Or so it should have been. That scene is now pointless.

She didn't even need to know Ramsay was a monster. ShowSansa keeps seeing herself as a pawn whose only value is marriage. BookSansa objected this: she was ready to tell Lysa she's not a child to be married around, a kind of protest we don't even see from Margaery. What was the point of having the Darth Sansa scene if Sansa still believes her only power or value is her hymen and not the fact she has information that can ends up with LF's schemes once and for all?

Last season she was shown being aware of her power. This season, they showed her simply believing LF was to trust. This is my question, why she trusted him now? The whole point of letting him now SHE owned HIS ass (and not the other way around) is to show us, the audience, that she does not trust him. You don't make those kind of games on someone you trust. You don't say "I trust you, but... just in case, I have weapons to make you do my will". She was made aware of her power to manipulate HIM. You don't manipulate someone you TRUST.

If they had followed the one storyline they created, then her marriage to Ramsay had been a tease: "No, Petyr. I won't marry the man who killed my family. I have power over the Vale and over you. If you want me to go, we go together or they will know what you did". That would have been a more consistent follow up of her Darth Sansa arc and scene.

Great point and, actually, I think we do agree. Perhaps I didn't articulate it very well but that's sort of what I was at least trying to get at with my last sentence: that they did, basically, reverse or forget what they did before supposedly indicating that Sansa was growing, becoming more powerful, and learning to play "the game". But, even just looking at this specific season only, with Sansa going to Winterfell, she didn't have a choice but that doesn't stop people from saying that she did. My complaint is that it's just more inconsistency/nonsense in the show's writing.

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*snip*

Because, the Sansa marriage is such a potent weapon, its use has always been a contentious political issue. During the 1964 campaign, Barry Goldwater, in an attempt to make Lyndon Johnson look "soft on Communism", suggested that the United States arrange a marriage between Sansa Stark and the communist forces in Vietnam. The Johnson Administration, wanting to limit the conflict in Vietnam,however, pushed backed by releasing the infamous "Daisy Commercial". The "Daisy Commercial" showed a little girl, "Daisy", in the foreground playing in a field, while in the background Sansa Stark ominously said her wedding vows underneath a Weirwood tree in the background. The public uproar over the "Daisy Commercial" caused Barry Goldwater to speak no more about any Sansa marriages with communist forces in Vietnam.

OldGimletEye does it again. Especially loved the above part. Thanks for the laughs, good sir/lady. :)

ETA: I like your mockery posts btw. It makes you feel better after reading countless trolling/strawmen/insensitive posts.

Edited by Aleenys
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Only dead fish swim with the tide ;)

No, seriously, I admire her courage. Only I think her well reasoned opinion is not so unpopular among those who do not spend all day in web debates.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/

Some comments from below that article.

*****

I am a rape survivor. Thank you, so much, for writing this defense. This is the first time I have felt Game of Thrones really did justice in portraying a rape scene, and I walked away from it shaken and upset but feeling stronger for having seen it. I recognized in it that Game of Thrones was not going to let people get away, that they needed to see it, to confront these things, and I did not feel any of it was unnecessary, avoidable, or poorly done. Even the shot of Theon's face was important. It remains to be seen if Game of Thrones can handle the aftermath well, but we shall see.
When I watched this scene, I felt that my story was finally been witnessed, that people would know what it was like, how it could be, the truth through all the fake depictions, and that was very important to me. But the backlash that resulted made me lose faith in the ability of people to deal with it. People would rather be comfortable than bear witness to the experience of literally millions of survivors. The number of arguments that "Sansa didn't deserve it" as if anyone does, or "now she is ruined/weak" were particularly difficult to get through. It isn't true. Survivors deal with self-blame on exponential levels, half even committing suicide because this is what society tells us. Your defense of the scene has given me strength again and was necessary and important. Thank you.
*****
As another survivor, I have to agree with you. The other thing is that people are not aware of how STRONG you have to be or become to have your soul survive a rape. Especially in our culture where rape is frequently treated as a joke, as a failing on the part of the survivor, as the FAULT of the survivor, as a "boys will be boys" no-big-deal thing ... This scene was done RIGHT. It showed the brutality without actually having it on screen.
I also think that this is the situation that will start to "wake" Theon up. It is different to endure your own abuse, it becomes unendurable when you witness someone that you care about or used to care about being abused. I survived domestic abuse (which included marital rape) and it wasn't until I saw one of my step-daughters being abused by my then-husband that I stood up and left.
*****
Thank you. As a fellow survivor, I actually felt that this was the first time the show depicted rape in a non-exploitative way. I've been much more offended by people saying that this scene has made Sansa "weak" again or that it has "reversed" all her progress thus far. I hate that assumption.
*****
You're not alone. As a survivor, I felt this was exactly what should have been shown. She couldn't resist, she wasn't beaten into submission, she was just forced to do what she didn't want to do.
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OldGimletEye does it again. Especially loved the above part. Thanks for the laughs, good sir/lady. :)

ETA: I like your mockery posts btw. It makes you feel better after reading countless trolling/strawmen/insensitive posts.

Yep, the strawmen are piled up sky high. That's the best way to take them on. And it does help to laugh.

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Yep, the strawmen are piled up sky high. That's the best way to take them on. And it does help to laugh.

Especially when the strawman is 'critics are calling the victims of sexualized violence weak'... and the forum user linking to said strawman actually seriously used that argument against Sansa when she was in King's Landing.

Edited by greensleeves
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I think that sansa's rape scene shouldn't be thought about as 'ruining' sansa's arc, because I think the event is much more important in theons and ramsey's arc.

I think the abuse jeyne is subjected to tells the reader alot more about ramsey and its these events that really trigger theon to become more daring, he realises that death is what he really wants and that nothing else really matters so he saves jeyne because he no longer fears the consquences as much.

This is a really big realisation for theon and I think will really have an impact on the story to come, so because the show didn't have jeyne to to use they had to use sansa and a rape scene maximises the drama and the trigger for theon.

I also think sansa will learn from this, she will be more likely to forgive and care for theon (she might even learn that her borthers are alive) now she knows what ramsey is really like and sansa will also 'toughen' up slightly she was already developing a more cynical outlook especially on people she didn't know but now she will be even more cynical and be more aware of the harsh realities of the boltons/westeros. This is not a setback of her arc but an event to push her on to reclaim the north back to the starks.

Have you actually read the books?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129075-book-spoilers-ep506-discussion-v-2/?p=7011454

Good article.

Yup.

That article doesn't really address (much less 'debunk') my issues. My opinion is that the author is missing the point rather broadly.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129075-book-spoilers-ep506-discussion-v-2/?p=7011454

This is actually some powerful stuff. Thank you. I hadn't considered it from that perspective.

I agree completely. Powerful indeed.

Sansa went to her wedding with open eyes, bravely.

That's why she cried.

Right?

Even narratively it makes little sense.

Let's forget for a moment is a rape. Let's say it's about cutting Theon's head. She says "this is my choice. I will do it because it will prove them I'm strong and I've grown and I can take control of my destiny". Then, she's given a sword. She cuts Theon's head and while doing it, cries and says "I don't actually want to do this...".

She would look weak.

Why make Sansa take a choice (their words) and then make her look like a victim of her own choices? If they want to make Sansa look like that's something she decided on her own, then why oh why she was portrayed as completely shocked on what was happening? :dunno:

Maybe she's crying partly because Ramsey is multiplying her degradation by demanding that his eunich man-slave (the man who killed her brothers) witness the consummation of the marriage? Maybe at that moment, she comes the horrible realization her betrothed is Joffrey 2.0?

Pro-tip: maybe not refer to people upset by a girl being raped as crybabies. It achieves very little apart from making you look like a douchebag.

Yup.

No sadly it it is a testament to the kind of awful rape apology we have seen on the Internet regarding this episode that it could be taken seriously.

Seriously? I don't think that means what you think it means.

You do realize we are talking about a fictional rape involving fictional characters in a fictional universe, right? That Iwan Rheon didn't actually forcibly penetrate Sophie Turner on camera? Defending that scene does not make you a "rape apologist".

Here's what a rape apologist does:

"She's lying".

"The way she was dressed, you know she was asking for it."

"She shouldn't have gotten drunk around all those guys."

See the difference?

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?
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Especially when the strawman is 'critics are calling the victims of sexualized violence weak'... and the forum user linking to said strawman actually seriously used that argument against Sansa when she was in King's Landing.

What are trying to say? What arguments about KL? Some quotes to prove your point? Is Amanda Marcotte a poster here? How would you know, I'd think people don't post under their real names in a forum like that.

I had never heard of this author before I admit, not being a native English speaker. I had to google her name but she seems to be a writer to be taken seriously. And declaring every argument you dislike a strawman is really cheap.

Don't put words into other peoples' mouth.

You do realize we are talking about a fictional rape involving fictional characters in a fictional universe, right? That Iwan Rheon didn't actually forcibly penetrate Sophie Turner on camera? Defending that scene does not make you a "rape apologist".

Here's what a rape apologist does:

"She's lying".

"The way she was dressed, you know she was asking for it."

"She shouldn't have gotten drunk around all those guys."

See the difference?

This. Thank you, Deadlines.

People who are sensitive about fictional characters should be a thousand times more sensitive about real existing living breathing posters and writers and stop insulting them.

Edited by Woman of War
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blp

Hey, didn't respond to your earlier comment because I didn't really know where to start. Yes, Jeyne was used to further Theon's development... that should be obvious in the books. I don't know where to start with that objection other than to suggest a reread.

Also perhaps this objection:

So, you write a storyline that includes a primary character getting raped and the entire internet splits in half with accusations of mysogony and lazy writing. Rape a secondary or tertiary character, and you can get a partial pass so long as you write "great storylines for other female characters"?

Could be answered with your own words:

You do realize we are talking about a fictional rape involving fictional characters in a fictional universe, right?

Part of what makes the 'Women in Refrigerators' trope so horrible is that it so often exchanges *important* (or at least the most important around) female characters for male-character motivation. What happens to primary characters *should* be given different weight than what happens to tertiary characters. In the end, the narrative is about them. ASOIAF is far more Sansa's story (and Theon's) than Jeyne's.

Edit: A good introduction to the trope was suggested by Elaena Targaryen earlier in the thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8

Edited by greensleeves
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Seriously? I don't think that means what you think it means.

You do realize we are talking about a fictional rape involving fictional characters in a fictional universe, right? That Iwan Rheon didn't actually forcibly penetrate Sophie Turner on camera? Defending that scene does not make you a "rape apologist".

Here's what a rape apologist does:

"She's lying".

"The way she was dressed, you know she was asking for it."

"She shouldn't have gotten drunk around all those guys."

See the difference?

Defending a fictional rape is still making excuses for it. Here is another couple of examples to add to those above:

"She knew what she was getting into"

"She went home with him, what did she expect to happen"

Variations of both of these as well as the good old, but there is no rape in marriage excuse have been flying around the comments sections of numerous articles.

We can even go back to when book readers were discussing the original Jeyne scene describing it as partly her fault for not fighting back or trying to find a way to escape. The nasty old trope of not resisting meaning it is partly the victim's fault.

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What are trying to say? What arguments about KL? Some quotes to prove your point? Is Amanda Marcotte a poster here? How would you know, I'd think people don't post under their real names in a forum like that.

I had never heard of this author before I admit, not being a native English speaker. I had to google her name but she seems to be a writer to be taken seriously. And declaring every argument you dislike a strawman is really cheap.

Don't put words into other peoples' mouth.

Seriously? I'm not talking about Marcotte. I'm talking about *you*. A few years ago you were constantly trolling Sansa threads talking about how if Sansa were just more proactive she would be able to get out of her situation (thus implicitly blaming her for her abuse). I remember because it was so ridiculous. (Here's one example. There were many)

THEN -------> Woman of War (paraphrased): My mom and I were able to get out of a tough situation by being proactive. Sansa could do the same thing. I could never like a character that just endures abuse.

NOW--------> Woman of War's linked article: "More to the point, this line of argumentation assumes that responsibility for rape belongs to the victim, for not fighting back hard enough." (and it goes on).

The only person I can recall making the argument Marcotte is 'debunking' is YOU.

On one hand, yay for personal growth. On the other hand, WTF.

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