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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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Thank you for that! I was citing examples others had posted.

Hell is fine. It's usually in the context of the seven hells though. Diplomatic was the part that bothered me, and the "sensitive" part. Not necessarily the use of mission. Saying "he's on a sensitive diplomatic mission" sounds like something the POTUS would say.

Sword swallower is in the books? That's surprising. I was more bothered by "pillow biter" though.

Of course, these complaints can then bleed into ASOIAF, which is a perfectly valid nitpick. Plenty of people have complained about some anachronisms within his books. Maybe the length means they're easier to gloss over though? I'm not sure.

It's the definition of a nitpick. Not really a big deal, but something that can take you out of the story occasionally.

Oh yea I completely agree.... but for clarification;

I only tried to count "hell" in singular form, not involving the seven hells, and the context on several of those was similar to - go to hell (the "go to hell" by Stannis in the show jarred me too) to add all four uses of "go to hell" in the books involved Arya :lol:

Totally agree and get your point on "sensitive diplomatic mission", it's really silly. I just had the count so I threw it in, and since in no instance did the use of "mission" in the books ever have any qualifiers

This is the only passage where "sword swallower" was used, for context;

Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with flery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. ("Not swan again," Tyrion muttered, remembering his supper with his sister on the eve of battle.) A juggler kept a half-dozen swords and axes whirling through the air as skewers of blood sausage were brought sizzling to the tables, a juxtaposition that Tyrion thought passing clever, though not perhaps in the best of taste.

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Just wondering if everyone saw this from WotW, an article including Anatomy of a Scene about Sansa's return to WF. Even just skimming the article makes me sick, quite frankly, not to mention a bit angry. I can't say as I'm dying to watch the accompanying bs spinning by the show, either.



http://watchersonthewall.com/new-anatomy-of-a-scene-features-sansas-return-to-winterfell/#more-32731


Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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Just wondering if everyone saw this from WotW, an article including Anatomy of a Scene about Sansa's return to WF. Even just skimming the article makes me sick, quite frankly, not to mention a bit angry. I can't say as I'm dying to watch the accompanying bs spinning by the show, either.

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-anatomy-of-a-scene-features-sansas-return-to-winterfell/#more-32731

Some things in there are somewhat confusing, like this gem:

Executive Producer Frank Doelger: “Sansa is no longer going to be a victim. She has become a Stark in her own right.

Except she became a Bolton by all rights, so wtf are these guys smokin?

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Given the controversy they have caused with this episode, does anyone else think that Cersei's Walk is now going to be even more controversial?

Her Walk / Jon's Death should have been the biggest shocks of the season and there certainly would have been fallout from the walk in the press, but now we have a added rape scene for one major female character and then the sexual humiliation of another female character, who they have made a lot nicer on the show than in the books.

That's a good point, especially for the unsullied, it looks like they are just humiliating shaming female characters. Besides theon and loras have any male characters been shamed sexually? I really don't retain the show details as well. Also with cersie you are supposed to feel sorry for her (in a way at least) after the walk. Wonder how they will pull it off.

Edited by She-Ra Princess of Power

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At the start of the episode when it shows the recap what do you get from Balish telling Roose "the last time the eyrie formed an alliance with the lords of the north they brought down the greatest dynasty the world has ever known" in regard to the scene where balish and cersei are talking what do you think he is setting up because I dont get it?

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Some things in there are somewhat confusing, like this gem:

Executive Producer Frank Doelger: “Sansa is no longer going to be a victim. She has become a Stark in her own right.

Except she became a Bolton by all rights, so wtf are these guys smokin?

It is a little weird, some of the quotes and some of the timing. It makes one want to ask........WHEN did you say this, what was going on, did you personally have a clue......what happened at which point....and what will happen eventually? It's like half of the comments include all the pre rape spin of.........empowerment, or whatever?

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Ummmmmmmm, what IS bullshit is thinking I should waste my time explaining what it is and isn't when the website does that at the top of said page. Hell......the TITLE explains what it is SUPPOSED to be.

You are correct. My bad.

It's been a really, really... really shitty day. My humors are all out of kilter.

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I do not like Sansa. Not in the books or on the show.

That said, I think it is so unfair the way that some people are overlooking her courage, maturity and sacrifice. Sansa knew, when she conspired with Littlefinger to marry the Bastard of Bolton, that it would involve the sacrifice of her virginity and her dignity and possibly her very life. She chose to go through with it because that sacrifice was required to win the Game of Thrones. Jeyne Poole had no choices. Jeyne was a victim who had no plan, no agenda, no hope. Just fear. Sansa is trying to be a player. It was ugly and hard to accept but it was something Sansa knew was coming and she went forward anyway. She made the hard choice, the way her hardhearted mother would have. She did what she had ro do the way that Arya would have.

She could have balked on the way to WF, or at any time before Littlefinger went back to KL. I think that Littlefinger would have altered the plan if Sansa had refused. But Sansa actually showed some guts. <aybe I have been too hard on Sansa.

She has come a long way from lying for Joorey or ratting out Ned to Cersei.

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I do not like Sansa. Not in the books or on the show.

That said, I think it is so unfair the way that some people are overlooking her courage, maturity and sacrifice. Sansa knew, when she conspired with Littlefinger to marry the Bastard of Bolton, that it would involve the sacrifice of her virginity and her dignity and possibly her very life. She chose to go through with it because that sacrifice was required to win the Game of Thrones. Jeyne Poole had no choices. Jeyne was a victim who had no plan, no agenda, no hope. Just fear. Sansa is trying to be a player. It was ugly and hard to accept but it was something Sansa knew was coming and she went forward anyway. She made the hard choice, the way her hardhearted mother would have. She did what she had to do the way that Arya would have.

She could have balked on the way to WF, or at any time before Littlefinger went back to KL. I think that Littlefinger would have altered the plan if Sansa had refused. But Sansa actually showed some guts. <aybe I have been too hard on Sansa.

She has come a long way from lying for Joffrey or ratting out Ned to Cersei.

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That's a good point, especially for the unsullied, it looks like they are just humiliating shaming female characters. Besides theon and loras have any male characters been shamed sexually? I really don't retain the show details as well. Also with cersie you are supposed to feel sorry for her (in a way at least) after the walk. Wonder how they will pull it off.

The former High Septom was humiliated by his own walk of shame.

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The former High Septom was humiliated by his own walk of shame.

There is also the scene in the brothel involving the two gay men, where they are both forced to the floor in the nude, begging, while being lectured at about their depravity before something horrible is done to them. The camera cuts away to show the brothel keepers reaction so it's not clear what hat was.

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I do not like Sansa. Not in the books or on the show.

That said, I think it is so unfair the way that some people are overlooking her courage, maturity and sacrifice. Sansa knew, when she conspired with Littlefinger to marry the Bastard of Bolton, that it would involve the sacrifice of her virginity and her dignity and possibly her very life. She chose to go through with it because that sacrifice was required to win the Game of Thrones. Jeyne Poole had no choices. Jeyne was a victim who had no plan, no agenda, no hope. Just fear. Sansa is trying to be a player. It was ugly and hard to accept but it was something Sansa knew was coming and she went forward anyway. She made the hard choice, the way her hardhearted mother would have. She did what she had to do the way that Arya would have.

She could have balked on the way to WF, or at any time before Littlefinger went back to KL. I think that Littlefinger would have altered the plan if Sansa had refused. But Sansa actually showed some guts. <aybe I have been too hard on Sansa.

She has come a long way from lying for Joffrey or ratting out Ned to Cersei.

In what way does this remotely help Sansa win the "Game of Thrones"?

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It is a little weird, some of the quotes and some of the timing. It makes one want to ask........WHEN did you say this, what was going on, did you personally have a clue......what happened at which point....and what will happen eventually? It's like half of the comments include all the pre rape spin of.........empowerment, or whatever?

Pre-rape spin of empowerment! :lol:

And the way they talk, LF is the best thing that ever happened to Sansa. He just wanted to empower her! Don't blame him!

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Right then.

Does anyone know why the Sand Snakes had to go in secret-ninja-style? They're Trystane's cousins-getting into the Water Gardens should have been easy.

My only assumption was that because Doran had that argument earlier concerning Myrcella that they were under some sort of suspicion.

But then I said to myself, they live there, that doesnt make any sense.

I just chalked it up to being one more portion of the Sand Snakes story that is utterly dumb.

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Not sure why everyone is making such a big deal about the final scene. I thought it was a fantastic scene and fit right in with the context. What did you think would happen to Sansa on her wedding night? That somehow she transforms into superhero Sansa, Black Widow, and takes Ramsay down? To be honest, she's been lucky so far not to have been abused or raped yet.



Is everyone mad because she didn't fight? Is it because after seeing her become a bit more cynical and devious that you thought she could somehow get out of this?



I thought she did well as a character and as an acting performance from Sophie Turner.



As a character, yes, she has learned from LF. She has learned to be patient, to bide her time, to wait for the perfect moment before you strike. What do you expect her to do? Knife Ramsay in the throat and then get executed by Roose? No, she is waiting, patient, and she will strike when she needs to. This was foreshadowed just moments before when she tells Ramsay's lover (forgot her name) I'm Sansa Stark of Winterfell and you can't scare me. She wasn't scared. She knew what she had to do. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it easy to watch, but I think it fit in well.



And come on Alfie Allen deserves praise. His look of absolute horror and suffering was fantastic. That scene was powerful.



The Dorne scene was pathetic. Everything about it was childish.



Let's all just stroll into this garden and capture a princess. Then have a very badly filmed fight. Then a bunch of guards come and surround us. That took like forever. Then Ellaria just looks around with her deer caught in headlights stare and gets surrounded. Bad bad bad. If anything the Dorne scenes are the real travesty in this episode.


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Somebody please lock this fuckin thread :)

Its obvious no one's opinion is going to change no matter how many pages we argue about

Rape vs Not rape

Good script vs Bad script

Book vs Show

I personally think the time has passed for us to still be arguing...But what do I know...

Edited by robasp2

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The rape scene itself didn't offend me, but I do have concerns that D&D have a history of making changes and jumping back to the book story lines as if their changes never happened. Which in this case would mean Sansa gets over the rape by the end of the season as if it never happened and the rape is more about Theon's redemption than Sansa. You can also argue that no matter what Sansa does for "revenge" at this point, having her family murdered and being raped by the murderer's son makes for a rather hollow victory. It certainly wasn't unavoidable. Besides avoiding the at best questionable Sansa in Winterfell story line in the first place, they could have:

1) Had Sansa rescued before the bedding.

2) Had Stannis attack before the bedding.

3) Had Sansa seduce Ramsay rather than get raped by him (Sansa taking it as rape is more believable, but it would remove the rape controversy.)

4) Written a completely original story line that doesn't involve Ramsay marrying anyone, which they have chosen to do for lots of other characters.

And yes Jeyne goes thru the same and much worse in the books, but that is a very tiny subplot of two huge books, that happens to a character that readers have no attachment to. They decided Sansa's rape should be the climax of a show that is covering those two books in only 10 episodes with a character that many viewers care a lot about. As much stuff as they have cut or completely rewritten other story arcs, it's pretty hard to say they "had to" include the rape scene. Both Jeyne and Sansa getting raped is terrible, but it's like reading about a rape of a stranger in the news paper vs finding out one of your friends or family got raped as far as character attachment. Jeyne is also destroyed as a person after it, where I suspect Sansa will go on as if it never happened by two episodes from now.

"The rape will make Sansa's revenge a hollow victory"...... So what? Why should it be a sweet victory? Sweet victories are a bit cliche. I think it is much more GoT-like to have bitter revenge than sweet revenge.

"D & D could have prevented the rape in several ways"..... Yes of course, but why should they? That's the kind of cliche writing that makes viewers believe (even if the knife is one centimeter from the hero's throat; even if an army is 100 times outnumbered, etc.) that a happy end is still possible. Such an unlikely escape can be used once or twice in a seven year show, but the default should be that if a hero is in trouble, s/he should be killed, raped, tortured, etc. Otherwise, it kills the suspense and the realism. It becomes a fairytale for children.

"They cut all sort of material, yet they include this rape scene"..... Yes, because D&D like this rape-scene. And why not? "But it is just for shock value!!!!" Yes, why not? Television is about eliciting emotions, that is the only reason for people to watch a show.

"We care more about Sansa than about Jeyne Poole"...... Yes, that's why it is more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Sansa raped than to have Jeyne raped. That's precisely the reason. Just like it was more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Ned beheaded than to have Lord Umber beheaded. These kind of decisions make GoT stick out and be memorable.

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"The rape will make Sansa's revenge a hollow victory"...... So what? Why should it be a sweet victory? Sweet victories are a bit cliche. I think it is much more GoT-like to have bitter revenge than sweet revenge.

"D & D could have prevented the rape in several ways"..... Yes of course, but why should they? That's the kind of cliche writing that makes viewers believe (even if the knife is one centimeter from the hero's throat; even if an army is 100 times outnumbered, etc.) that a happy end is still possible. Such an unlikely escape can be used once or twice in a seven year show, but the default should be that if a hero is in trouble, s/he should be killed, raped, tortured, etc. Otherwise, it kills the suspense and the realism. It becomes a fairytale for children.

So D&D are already over the limit by 50 or so. How many times did Tyrion alone avoid death in a very contrived way?

Edited by David Selig

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