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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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Very well put

What? Didnt you read my excellent comments on the previous page? You cannot still endorse this post after reading my reply, can you?

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Okay, here's my other post about Dorne :drool:

I can't believe I'm writing in defense of this mess, but here goes:


I think that both show watchers and book watchers need to have more of an appreciation for how even a basic local television show is produced. The amount of collaboration, coordination, and precise timing of marketing and post-production promotion is key to generating the millions of viewers that HBO gets every week for GoT. Having worked in the field, I can tell you that it ain't no picnic.

GoT got millions of dollars for additional budget of the show, we know that. But all we have seen of Dorne is a few rolling hills and drab scenery. Then we get punk'd reading about how they had enough money to make Areo's sword really intricate and they made a bunch of realistic face masks. Also, Dorne was filmed in Spain, so that meant that cast and crew had to be split in order to film in all locations. So yes, it is reasonable to assume that some hack writers and hack directors were used for the Dornish parts, because with Walk of Shame, Battle for Winterfell, Ides of march, Faceless training etc... D&D and maybe even RR Martin had to focus at home base.

This can only mean that Dorne, though neglected, is important to the overall storyline and MUST be included. So if that means bad acting, horrible casting, and wacky hi jinx with Jaime and bronn, then so be it. The ends will justify the means.

The whole story is about how the Seven Kingdoms are falling and heading into chaos. Would you rather Cersei and others just casually mention that Dorne is going to shit too for whatever reason? No, I don't think we have time to read snarky complaints how D&D are stupid for not including the lush and beautiful Water Gardens because they "hate" the books.

Instead of criticizing work that takes years of planning just to get started, how about you compliment them for sacrificing their pride and allowing the show to go through a slight bump in plot, continuity, and pacing so they can focus their attention on making Sansa's very necessary (see a previous post in this thread I made explaining why) "rape" as tasteful as possible.

Please, everyone. Your complaints are ruining the show's image and it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"


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Err i meant "get on" as in "get along " not "get it on". :P

Right when I read it I knew that would happen :laugh:

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The other problem that hasn't really been discussed regarding Tyrion being offered free sex by a whore is if he can do that, why does he need whores in the first place? If women want him even when he has no money, shouldn't he be charming normal women of westeros? At least as many as any other noble? It works against the fact that in the books he isn't an attractive man even before losing his nose. He might be charismatic and witty, but he feels like the only way a woman is going to want him is if he pays for her. That's part of why learning the truth about Tysha was so devestating.

Ramsay raping Sansa is "realisitic" to the situation they put her in, but it's just funny that a whore who just met Tyrion offering him free sex doesn't matter whether it's realistic or not.

Because it's unnecessary. Tyron's character and the way he views the world is built heavily on his experience with Tysha. The show doesn't have the luxury of Tyrion finding himself or some Dawson's Creek inner struggle because he would need to interact with someone in order to vocally present what he thinks so the audience can understand. This guy's gotta get to Meereen, so better to have him unable to bang prostitutes because he feels bad about shooting his father to death with a crossbow quarrel. Oh, and his dad banged the same prostitute he fell in love with, so he had to kill that hoe with his bare hands right before killing his dad so it ties in nicely and cements Tyrion as a figure we shouldn't be too quick to raise to hero status.

It's called "walking away" Tyrion. Way to set an example for the people on these forums.

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Reading the way some posters are bashing this episode based purely on shocking visual elements, I find it to be bizarre to say the least.

1. Personally, I wouldn't call Sansa's first sexual experience with Ramsay to be "rape" per say, but it was unsavory and nothing to defend as noble or praiseworthy. However, lots of people on this forum seem to be intent on calling it a "rape", so if there is going to be some mass movement to redefine the word, then please just say that is what the agenda is. As for the act itself, producers D&D would be wise to ignore these accusations and continue to produce the best show for what GoT is intended to be.

Really? Did Sansa seem willing to have sex to you?

I can't even... did you miss Ramsay's sick, mocking smile? Sansa obvious reluctance to undress and the way she braced herself when Ramsay tore her dress and pushed her down, the desperate expression on her face? Her disstressed screams of pain? A crying, horrified Theon?

She obviously didn't want to marry Ramsay and she obviously hoped there will be no consumnation, but (unfortunately too late) realized that he's a dangerous psychopath who doesn't care for her consent at all and would take pleasure in hurting her, so it's better to comply or he'll hurt her even worse.

Anyway, pretty much everybody called this rape, including the people who are part of the show and the scene. If you're looking for definition of rape, try an explanatory dictionary. It is indeed true that it has changed through the times.

Edited by lojzelote

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Because it's unnecessary. Tyron's character and the way he views the world is built heavily on his experience with Tysha. The show doesn't have the luxury of Tyrion finding himself or some Dawson's Creek inner struggle because he would need to interact with someone in order to vocally present what he thinks so the audience can understand. This guy's gotta get to Meereen, so better to have him unable to bang prostitutes because he feels bad about shooting his father to death with a crossbow quarrel. Oh, and his dad banged the same prostitute he fell in love with, so he had to kill that hoe with his bare hands right before killing his dad so it ties in nicely and cements Tyrion as a figure we shouldn't be too quick to raise to hero status.

It's called "walking away" Tyrion. Way to set an example for the people on these forums.

I'm not talking about the necessity to include Tysha. I'm talking about the completly unnecessary and unrealistic act of a whore offering Tyrion free sex. If Tyrion was that much of a lady's man he wouldn't need Shae or any other whore.

Okay, here's my other post about Dorne :drool:

I can't believe I'm writing in defense of this mess, but here goes:

This can only mean that Dorne, though neglected, is important to the overall storyline and MUST be included. So if that means bad acting, horrible casting, and wacky hi jinx with Jaime and bronn, then so be it. The ends will justify the means.

The whole story is about how the Seven Kingdoms are falling and heading into chaos. Would you rather Cersei and others just casually mention that Dorne is going to shit too for whatever reason? No, I don't think we have time to read snarky complaints how D&D are stupid for not including the lush and beautiful Water Gardens because they "hate" the books.

Instead of criticizing work that takes years of planning just to get started, how about you compliment them for sacrificing their pride and allowing the show to go through a slight bump in plot, continuity, and pacing so they can focus their attention on making Sansa's very necessary (see a previous post in this thread I made explaining why) "rape" as tasteful as possible.

Please, everyone. Your complaints are ruining the show's image and it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"

The complaints certainly aren't baseless. You can love the show despite them if you want, but the show is ruining it's own image.

If Dorne is important then make a coherrent story line of their own or follow the one that is already layed out for them in the books. I can only laugh at the need to have a terrible Dorne story line so they can have the "necessary and tasteful Sansa rape". Sansa's rape wasn't necessary because her entire marriage wasn't necessary. Boltons lose wardens of the north title and make enemies of the Iron Throne so they can have a figure head Stark wife when there is no one around for this to impress. Littlefinger sacrifices the heir to Winterfell to justify going to war and claiming Warden of the North for himself, even though Cersei didn't ask for any proof and it makes no sense that the Vale would go to war for Littlefinger in the first place. He couldn't give Cersei any proof of Sansa being there if she asked. If she decided to confirm it with her own spies then they would easily discover that Littlefinger is the one who escorted Sansa to Winterfell and arranged the wedding. So the wedding makes little sense for either side. Even less for Sansa to agree to it. For revenge? I thought she was learning the game and not so naive? How does getting married to a Bolton give her any revenge? They needed to consolidate as many characters as they can in as few locations as they can and this is the best way they could come up with to do it. Unfortunately it's just not very good writing.

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I'm not talking about the necessity to include Tysha. I'm talking about the completly unnecessary and unrealistic act of a whore offering Tyrion free sex. If Tyrion was that much of a lady's man he wouldn't need Shae or any other whore.

The complaints certainly aren't baseless. You can love the show despite them if you want, but the show is ruining it's own image.

If Dorne is important then make a coherrent story line of their own or follow the one that is already layed out for them in the books.

I'd love to see this, but it's not possible to fully flesh out coherently as they do in the books. You have no Arianne, Darkstar, and these roles need to be played by already recognizable characters so their value doesn't diminish. This is why they splice storylines. Also, with the way people get very sensitive, they are not going to slash Myrcella's face (thats the way it looks) so there goes the books pretext for war. Think about the end game, Dorme must enter into a war with the Iron Throne at all costs. How is not as important as the why.

I can only laugh at the need to have a terrible Dorne story line so they can have the "necessary and tasteful Sansa rape". Sansa's rape wasn't necessary because her entire marriage wasn't necessary. Boltons lose wardens of the north title and make enemies of the Iron Throne so they can have a figure head Stark wife when there is no one around for this to impress.

​Boltons also don't know Petyr plans to do the switcher with Cersei in KL. Sansa is not a figurehead. She is of noble blood of the only House they pledge fealty to. The Northmen are fiercely honorable, so they will not likely refute Roose's claim or defy him if Sansa is in his clutches. Sure, she legitimizes the claim, but she's really a hostage. Notice, Rose doesn't even care that she is a virgin and is willing to put her to work in a brothel, so long as she bears a child. It's not about impressing the Iron Throne. It's about focusing on the immediate concern of not being destroyed by a vengeful Northern uprising. Even Tywin failed to lift a finger to aid Roose Bolton, so why would he care? In fact, if the Iron Throne wanted to "do something" then that would involve sending armies to the frozen north that has never been conquered by force. With Sansa in Roose and Ramsay's grip, the Northmen would have no choice but to rally behind the Bolton claim because the South isn't very much liked in the North anyway.

Littlefinger sacrifices the heir to Winterfell to justify going to war and claiming Warden of the North for himself, even though Cersei didn't ask for any proof

​Why would she? She has no friends and she is desperate for good news of any kind at this point. She's not likely to demand proof of any kind, but rather act impulsively and without proper reasoning just like her book character.

and it makes no sense that the Vale would go to war for Littlefinger in the first place.

Why not? Little finger is Lord of the Vale until Robin comes of age. They might not go to war just for Littlefinger, but they will go to war if Littlefinger tells them that Sansa was kidnapped and they need to rally the troops. Keep watching the show, it will pan out, for sure. LF shows them the royal decree from the Iron Throne and they are fuel and rallied by a need to protect Sansa. Nice of their beloved Lysa Tully. Sansa is also promised to Robin, so they too will want a strong Stark-Tully-Arryn bond cementing their strength. Remember, they don't have SMS txting in Westeros. Not many people even realize that shit is about to spill over because they are focused on their individual problems.

He couldn't give Cersei any proof of Sansa being there if she asked. If she decided to confirm it with her own spies then they would easily discover that Littlefinger is the one who escorted Sansa to Winterfell and arranged the wedding.

​What spies? Varys, Master of Whispers is gone, remember? Qyburn doesn't have the same sophistication of resources and spiders that Varys spent decades building. Cerise is unlike by pretty much everyone. The idea that someone would travel all the way north to south, braving the bandits and septa raping reavers and wild mountain clans and famine that is plaguing the southern kingdoms, just to warn cerise is beyond believable.

So the wedding makes little sense for either side. Even less for Sansa to agree to it. For revenge?

One of the biggest, most overlooked possible motivation for Sansa to go through all of this is the idea that she can still get POWER. She didn't go to get raped, she went because Petyr promised to rescue her and make her Wardens of the North. Remember, she is an empty-headed child. She can't play the game. That's an insult to players of the game.

I thought she was learning the game and not so naive? How does getting married to a Bolton give her any revenge? They needed to consolidate as many characters as they can in as few locations as they can and this is the best way they could come up with to do it. Unfortunately it's just not very good writing.

I think that it might not necessarily be bad writing, but not enough writing and scenes to make it all fit together. Unfortunately only 10 episodes a season, so...

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Okay, here's my other post about Dorne :drool:

I can't believe I'm writing in defense of this mess, but here goes:

I think that both show watchers and book watchers need to have more of an appreciation for how even a basic local television show is produced. The amount of collaboration, coordination, and precise timing of marketing and post-production promotion is key to generating the millions of viewers that HBO gets every week for GoT. Having worked in the field, I can tell you that it ain't no picnic.

GoT got millions of dollars for additional budget of the show, we know that. But all we have seen of Dorne is a few rolling hills and drab scenery. Then we get punk'd reading about how they had enough money to make Areo's sword really intricate and they made a bunch of realistic face masks. Also, Dorne was filmed in Spain, so that meant that cast and crew had to be split in order to film in all locations. So yes, it is reasonable to assume that some hack writers and hack directors were used for the Dornish parts, because with Walk of Shame, Battle for Winterfell, Ides of march, Faceless training etc... D&D and maybe even RR Martin had to focus at home base.

This can only mean that Dorne, though neglected, is important to the overall storyline and MUST be included. So if that means bad acting, horrible casting, and wacky hi jinx with Jaime and bronn, then so be it. The ends will justify the means.

The whole story is about how the Seven Kingdoms are falling and heading into chaos. Would you rather Cersei and others just casually mention that Dorne is going to shit too for whatever reason? No, I don't think we have time to read snarky complaints how D&D are stupid for not including the lush and beautiful Water Gardens because they "hate" the books.

Instead of criticizing work that takes years of planning just to get started, how about you compliment them for sacrificing their pride and allowing the show to go through a slight bump in plot, continuity, and pacing so they can focus their attention on making Sansa's very necessary (see a previous post in this thread I made explaining why) "rape" as tasteful as possible.

Please, everyone. Your complaints are ruining the show's image and it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"

Dorne is important if you have Arianne and Quentin. Aegon & Co are not on there way. No rep of Dorne has met with Dany... so her going there isn't 100% certain. They felt only that Doran and the Sandsnakes were important and their mission ultimately takes them to KL and Oldtown. A counsel seat is open at KL so they could have just shown up there and been introduced. And if Dany does show up in Dorne Doran could just use LF's jet pack to get back in time. Edited by She-Ra Princess of Power

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Really? Did Sansa seem willing to have sex to you?

I can't even... did you miss Ramsay's sick, mocking smile? Sansa obvious reluctance to undress and the way she braced herself when Ramsay tore her dress and pushed her down, the desperate expression on her face? Her disstressed screams of pain? A crying, horrified Theon?

She obviously didn't want to marry Ramsay and she obviously hoped there will be no consumnation, but (unfortunately too late) realized that he's a dangerous psychopath who doesn't care for her consent at all and would take pleasure in hurting her, so it's better to comply or he'll hurt her even worse.

Anyway, pretty much everybody called this rape, including the people who are part of the show and the scene. If you're looking for definition of rape, try an explanatory dictionary. It is indeed true that it has changed through the times.

I wasn't a member of the forum during season 1-3. Were the reactions to the most recent scene similar to the reactions of Drogo/Daeny, or Edmure/Roslin?

Edited by Bud RR Martin

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So no one else was bothered by how Jaqen kept smacking the shit out of Arya?

It doesn't seem so. No-one objected when Joff ordered ser Meryn to smack Sansa around and when the Hound murdered Micah? Crickets.

However, simulate a rape scene with a beloved character like Sansa and it's on.

I really wanted to see more of Hotah. The Sand Brats were a waste of scenery. "Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken" they chant as they prepare to seize and murder an innocent girl (who happens to be the ward of their king). Oberyn would roll over in his grave - as much as he hated Tywin Lannister, he seemed to hold no ill-will toward Myrcella or personal dislike for Tyrion (which makes sense, since Tyrion was a child at the time Elia Martell and her children died, and Myrcella was not even born). I couldn't believe there were no guards at the entrances of the Water Gardens at least, what with the Heir of Dorne and his betrothed wandering about unescorted in the place. :dunno:

Oberyn made a point of telling Cersei that they didn't harm children for their father's (and Grandfather's) sins in Dorne. Considering what happened to his niece and nephew, I think he meant it and would absolutely despise what Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are planning.

As far as what happened in the Water Gardens, I have a theory:

Even D&D can't believe that just walking into the WG could be so easy, so I'm wondering if it was a plan hatched by Doran and Areo to trap the SS. Jamie and Bronn arriving at the same time was just a bonus.

Cat of the Canals? I don't think she had to change anything for that.

I'm guessing they'll skip CotC, for sake of expedience. I think "someone else" will be Mercy. (much to ser Meryn's chagrin)

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Please, everyone. Your complaints are ruining the show's image and it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"

I'm very sorry you're being forced to read the forum as people react to an episode. That must be horrifying for you.

If you can't deal with valid criticism of the show, I suggest sticking to the Positive Nitpicking thread.

This can only mean that Dorne, though neglected, is important to the overall storyline and MUST be included. So if that means bad acting, horrible casting, and wacky hi jinx with Jaime and bronn, then so be it. The ends will justify the means.

This is such nonsense, I can't even begin...

Accepting "bad acting, horrible casting", terrible storytelling, dreadful dialogue, nonsensical plotting as a necessary means to an end is ludicrous.

As an an avid fan of the books, I don't ask that everything is included from them. I'm judging the show on its own merits and the choices being made by the makers of the show are not good. They were okay while they stuck fairly faithfully to the books, but their attempts to streamline and take different paths are leading to problems; wanton destruction of character arcs, senseless plotting due to hazy and undeveloped character motivations. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have attempted to streamline and make alterations, it means they made bad choices for reasons beyond the main basic storytelling factor.

I still enjoy watching the show for the most part, but the criticisms are not even close to being unwarranted.

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Dorne is important if you have Arianne and Quentin.

​Dorne is still important without them. Aria wanted to follow a plan that could lead to Dorne entering a war, so instead we have Ellaria doing that role. Arianna's appearance, though missed, is unnecessary to achieve the ultimate goal of getting Dorne to enter the war.

Aegon & Co are not on there way. No rep of Dorne has met with Dany... so her going there isn't 100% certain.

​Quentin would be that Dorne rep, right? Well, I think his purpose was different. His true purpose, if you read the books, is to serve as the king's blood needed to aid R'hllor. When he was burned by the dragons, his death effectively served as a royal sacrifice. Notice how magically Dany comes across the Khalasar with Drogo. The Khal won't be able to attack Dany, but he may decide to help attack the youngish army before they can start heaving those dead corpses. The who sacrifice thing makes more sense if you look at the Shireen/Melisandre theories popping up about the show.

They felt only that Doran and the Sandsnakes were important and their mission ultimately takes them to KL and Oldtown. A counsel seat is open at KL so they could have just shown up there and been introduced. And if Dany does show up in Dorne Doran could just use LF's jet pack to get back in time.

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RedRonnet, on 21 May 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:snapback.png

Please, everyone. Your complaints are ruining the show's image and it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"

I'm very sorry you're being forced to read the forum as people react to an episode. That must be horrifying for you.

If you can't deal with valid criticism of the show, I suggest sticking to the Positive Nitpicking thread.

This is hilarious and I could not agree more

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RedRonnet, on 21 May 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:snapback.png

This is hilarious and I could not agree more

It is! Can we have an official spoof thread? We could write all sorts of funny posts.

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Think about the end game, Dorme must enter into a war with the Iron Throne at all costs. How is not as important as the why.

Both are important if you want a good story. They are making up their own story so they can have Myrcella scarred, or have her named queen or change it completely and it won't be any more or less faithful to the books than what they have made up so far.

​ Boltons also don't know Petyr plans to do the switcher with Cersei in KL. Sansa is not a figurehead. She is of noble blood of the only House they pledge fealty to. The Northmen are fiercely honorable, so they will not likely refute Roose's claim or defy him if Sansa is in his clutches. Sure, she legitimizes the claim, but she's really a hostage. It's about focusing on the immediate concern of not being destroyed by a vengeful Northern uprising.

Boltons don't have to know Littlefinger is going to tell Cersei, they know that marrying a fugitive wanted for the murder of the king will break their alliance with the Lannisters. Even if they don't think the Lannisters will help that's hardly a reason to provoke them into being enemies. Keeping it secret would certainly be counter productive to increasing the legitimacy of their claim or helping get the word out that they have her as a hostage.

Besides, who said there was a threat of a northern uprising? Certainly not the show where it hasn't been mentioned once. What Northmen are they trying to pacify? The old man and woman who are going to help Brienne and Sansa? If Roose cared about what they or any other northerners thought it might be a good idea to invite them to the wedding. Losing Warden of the North and making an enemy of the Iron Throne is a pretty poor trade off for dealing with a threat that hasn't even been mentioned as a concern.

​Why would Cersei ask for any proof (of Sansa being in Winterfell)? She has no friends and she is desperate for good news of any kind at this point. She's not likely to demand proof of any kind, but rather act impulsively and without proper reasoning just like her book character.

​ What spies? Varys, Master of Whispers is gone, remember? Qyburn doesn't have the same sophistication of resources and spiders that Varys spent decades building. Cerise is unlike by pretty much everyone. The idea that someone would travel all the way north to south, braving the bandits and septa raping reavers and wild mountain clans and famine that is plaguing the southern kingdoms, just to warn cerise is beyond believable.

That means Littlefinger could have just lied about the Boltons having Sansa and gotten the same result, meaning giving up Sansa was pointless. Who said there are bandits, Septa raping reavers or mountain clans to brave? Even if those dangers existed, they just need to borrow Littlefinger's teleporter and they can be there in seconds. There is a bounty on Sansa and Tyrion's heads which sounds like it would be worth it. There were also people who happened to be at the Inn when Brienne loudly confronted Littlefinger about Sansa's identity.

Why not (conquer the north for Littlefinger)? Little finger is Lord of the Vale until Robin comes of age. They might not go to war just for Littlefinger, but they will go to war if Littlefinger tells them that Sansa was kidnapped and they need to rally the troops.

Sansa is also promised to Robin, so they too will want a strong Stark-Tully-Arryn bond cementing their strength. Remember, they don't have SMS txting in Westeros. Not many people even realize that shit is about to spill over because they are focused on their individual problems.

Kidnapped? The lords of the vale knew he was going to marry Sansa off before they left the Vale. Besides the entire reason Cersei agreed to let Littlefinger send the Vale is to bring her Sansa's head. That kind of conflicts with going to war to save Sansa.

And with teleporting, who needs SMS texting?

One of the biggest, most overlooked possible motivation for Sansa to go through all of this is the idea that she can still get POWER. She didn't go to get raped, she went because Petyr promised to rescue her and make her Wardens of the North. Remember, she is an empty-headed child. She can't play the game. That's an insult to players of the game.

So she is a moron? D&D are the ones who have been promoting how she is learning the game from Littlefinger and this is the season where she will prove it. She wouldn't have to be rescued if she didn't go in the first place. It doesn't take a mastermind to figure that out. She could have just arrived with Littlefinger after Stannis and the Boltons fight it out, she didn't need to be there for the fight.

Littlefingers schemes in the show don't actually work because he's smart, they work because the show wants them to work. They have to write illogical decisions for everyone else in order for it to work out in Littlefinger's favor because of all the other changes they have made. At this point he's just a lucky gambler.

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Really? Did Sansa seem willing to have sex to you?

I can't even... did you miss Ramsay's sick, mocking smile? Sansa obvious reluctance to undress and the way she braced herself when Ramsay tore her dress and pushed her down, the desperate expression on her face? Her disstressed screams of pain? A crying, horrified Theon?

She obviously didn't want to marry Ramsay and she obviously hoped there will be no consumnation, but (unfortunately too late) realized that he's a dangerous psychopath who doesn't care for her consent at all and would take pleasure in hurting her, so it's better to comply or he'll hurt her even worse.

Anyway, pretty much everybody called this rape, including the people who are part of the show and the scene. If you're looking for definition of rape, try an explanatory dictionary. It is indeed true that it has changed through the times.

I agree with everything you said except this. She would not have anticipated being degraded and humiliated like that, but I can't imagine that Sansa expected to wake up the following morning still a virgin.

Another more general, tiny point: With all the talk of "sanitizing" Tyrion, though she is a very minor character, Lollys Stokeworth's gang rape during the riot in KL has also been excised from her backstory in the TV show. Granted, she only appears briefly in the show and not at all in the books, but she, her rape and resulting pregnancy get mentioned a lot in the books.

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By the way, does anyone knows why the Wall is aware of Dany actions but not of Winterfell's wedding?

Get a grip and read a post before yours. It's all great. Don't spoil it by using your brain.

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They fridged SANSA for THEON.



Jeyne Poole's fridging in the books is diminished by the fact she's a minor character and it's offset by other great storylines for female characters (including Sansa).



They fridged SANSA for THEON.



I want to set something on fire. Maybe Theon.


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it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"


:bowdown:

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