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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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Lol, people saying this is a realistic rape scene are really reaching. You want to see a realistic rape scene. Here are two examples.



http://rapebait.net/?p=250



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqJdsiQZyA



Now, the second one is Dr Melfi's rape from The Sopranos. Here is an excerpt from on the writers of Entertainment weekly when discussing the rape.



"The rape scene is brutal in its directness, focusing mainly on Melfi’s face as she screams and sobs. There’s no ominous music or stylized camera work to remind the viewers that it’s just a TV show and to take them out of what’s being shown on screen."



The complete opposite from the Sansa scene.



Here's some more.



"For a physically and emotionally terrorized Melfi, Tony now represents protection – and, possibly, revenge. Chase(showrunner) didn’t brutalize Jennifer to make her a victim; he did it to push her to the brink of a moral and ethical crisis. Will Melfi sic Tony on her attacker, have him, in her words, ”squashed like a bug”?

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Do you think there is still time for Theon to Save Sansa?

The horrible scene in question was the very last scene of the show, so by the laws of television logic, the next show can pick up that scene and complete it in unexpected ways.

It's a stretch but I'm hoping for a miracle here.

Totally. That was sooooo fucking depressing, disgusting, traumatizing. I knew the Red Wedding was coming, all along here I was hoping for something ridiculous to happen. The old gods could have a weirwood fall on that sick motherfucker. Bran could use his "magic" to somehow make him drop dead. Theon would valiantly strike down that fucking piece of shit.

I don't care how unrealistic any other resolution would be, but I don't really want to watch a show where this shit happens anymore. Hasn't she suffered enough? That was so gross...

I am a little late to the party, just having watched it this morning, but I could give a shit less about how the rape was depicted. The fact that it happened is horrifying enough.

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Sorry I don't have time to hunt it up, but either Cheb or Julia posted a great rebuttal on tumblr to that article. The gist of it was that when it came to the books, she mostly agreed with her because George doesn't shy away from writing about the effects of abuse on the characters involved. Where the disagreement came was when it came to the show and how D&D just go for the shock value and completely miss the boat wrt to what happens afterward.

It total agreement with the bolded and I've gotten into a few arguments on reddit and other places stating the same sentiment.

edit: found the link to the post. Hopefully she won't mind since both of them have posted these in our forums before.

http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/119463846881/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on

Right, I think articles like that are born of the misunderstanding that we're upset that there was a depiction of rape at all. And like so many people still think that's what this is about. And it's not like we're sitting here thinking "god, we just would rather Jeyne was raped" as if these are two real girls and we care about one but not the other.

The issue with this was that it was a rape without any sense: plot-wise, character-wise. Like...we know that it was all for shock-value because it's exactly what Cogman's quote about it said: "you go with the girl the audience knows." Because that would horrify us.

And that's exactly what the rape-victim's piece is getting at too. Jeyne's rape is handled with sensitivity, not because the depiction of the scene is better for the feint of heart (far, far from it), but because Martin dealt with it intimately. He didn't toss it in so Jeyne could "rise from the ashes" or any hackneyed trope. He dealt with her brutalization with respect to her character and never, ever let us forget the damning consequences.

Jeyne pulled her wolfskins up to her chin. “No. This is some trick. It’s him, it’s my … my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything.” A tear ran down her cheek. “Tell him, you tell him. I’ll do what he wants … whatever he wants … with him or … or with the dog or … please … he doesn’t need to cut my feet off, I won’t try to run away, not ever, I’ll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …”

Rowan whistled softly. “Gods curse the man.”

But again, Sansa isn't Jeyne. You can't blithely swap Girl A for Girl B and act as if it's going to have the same point or result. It utterly, utterly destroys the narrative. And frankly the fact that the writers thought these two women would be interchangeable and "service the plot" in the same way? That's outright offensive.

Then there's the major, major issues about the lack of sense this entire set-up had. No one has yet to explain how Sansa marrying Ramsay is a good idea. Because it isn't. Because when you're the "last remaining Stark" whose "maidenhood" is of value, marrying the family that slaughtered yours and "giving up" your "virginity"...which does inherently come with the expectation of children...that does absolutely nothing to strengthen your position.

"Make him yours." Why? So she can rule Winterfell in the name of the Boltons? Fuck, she wasn't even marrying Roose to gain a position of power.

And the fact is, the writers sat down and thought to themselves "we think it will be better [for Ramsay, for Theon] to have Sansa be the girl getting raped" without bothering to even think of a logical reason why this would come to pass.

This idiotic idea that we should "wait and see" where it goes...what, because they've been so fucking respectful to Sansa's character? When we know the entire set-up was for truly gratuitous (aka uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted) reasons, then the aftermath is irredeemable.

Also, what are our best case scenarios here? Sansa will rise harder and stronger from this? Because her abuse in King's Landing wasn't for that exact purpose, and there's no quote about her skin hardening or anything as she's reflecting on her time there. And the suggestion that she needs a raping to become tougher or to want revenge against the Boltons is just outright sexist.

I think the funniest part (if there's any humor to be drawn from this at all) to me is that they think they're doing Theon's storyline a service here by giving us "buy-in" with someone we care about, when this undercuts his character too. Of course he'd want to save Sansa, the girl he had a crush on growing up. And of course there's other people around who would want to help Sansa. She's "worth" saving because she's a Stark. Jeyne wasn't, which was the whole point. And a point that D&D apparently agreed with too.

Assholes.

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/snip

Also, what are our best case scenarios here? Sansa will rise harder and stronger from this? Because her abuse in King's Landing wasn't for that exact purpose, and there's no quote about her skin hardening or anything as she's reflecting on her time there. And the suggestion that she needs a raping to become tougher or to want revenge against the Boltons is just outright sexist.

I think the funniest part (if there's any humor to be drawn from this at all) to me is that they think they're doing Theon's storyline a service here by giving us "buy-in" with someone we care about, when this undercuts his character too. Of course he'd want to save Sansa, the girl he had a crush on growing up. And of course there's other people around who would want to help Sansa. She's "worth" saving because she's a Stark. Jeyne wasn't, which was the whole point. And a point that D&D apparently agreed with too.

Assholes.

Snip for brevity, but the last paragraph is what gets lost when so many people bring the argument back to OMG.....SEX, which misses the point. It's the context! :bang:

Trying to explain why it matters that it's Jeyne Poole, or someone else of her social status in a very socially stratified culture like Westeros gets lost in the shuffle. It's frustrating when we can't get beyond the sexual aspect of the argument and how it ties in with other disturbing aspects of the story that get too easily missed.

I would rant more, but don't want to be late to work.

edit: grammar and clarity

Edited by Duchess of Spork

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Trying to explain why it matters that it's Jeyne Poole, or someone else of her social status in a very socially stratified culture like Westeros gets lost in the shuffle. It's frustrating when we can't get beyond the sexual aspect of the argument and how it ties in with other disturbing aspects of the story that get too easily missed.

You seem to be forgetting that most people in the books think Jeyne is Arya Stark.

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Right, I think articles like that are born of the misunderstanding that we're upset that there was a depiction of rape at all. And like so many people still think that's what this is about. And it's not like we're sitting here thinking "god, we just would rather Jeyne was raped" as if these are two real girls and we care about one but not the other.

The issue with this was that it was a rape without any sense: plot-wise, character-wise. Like...we know that it was all for shock-value because it's exactly what Cogman's quote about it said: "you go with the girl the audience knows." Because that would horrify us.

And that's exactly what the rape-victim's piece is getting at too. Jeyne's rape is handled with sensitivity, not because the depiction of the scene is better for the feint of heart (far, far from it), but because Martin dealt with it intimately. He didn't toss it in so Jeyne could "rise from the ashes" or any hackneyed trope. He dealt with her brutalization with respect to her character and never, ever let us forget the damning consequences.

But again, Sansa isn't Jeyne. You can't blithely swap Girl A for Girl B and act as if it's going to have the same point or result. It utterly, utterly destroys the narrative. And frankly the fact that the writers thought these two women would be interchangeable and "service the plot" in the same way? That's outright offensive.

Then there's the major, major issues about the lack of sense this entire set-up had. No one has yet to explain how Sansa marrying Ramsay is a good idea. Because it isn't. Because when you're the "last remaining Stark" whose "maidenhood" is of value, marrying the family that slaughtered yours and "giving up" your "virginity"...which does inherently come with the expectation of children...that does absolutely nothing to strengthen your position.

"Make him yours." Why? So she can rule Winterfell in the name of the Boltons? Fuck, she wasn't even marrying Roose to gain a position of power.

And the fact is, the writers sat down and thought to themselves "we think it will be better [for Ramsay, for Theon] to have Sansa be the girl getting raped" without bothering to even think of a logical reason why this would come to pass.

This idiotic idea that we should "wait and see" where it goes...what, because they've been so fucking respectful to Sansa's character? When we know the entire set-up was for truly gratuitous (aka uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted) reasons, then the aftermath is irredeemable.

Also, what are our best case scenarios here? Sansa will rise harder and stronger from this? Because her abuse in King's Landing wasn't for that exact purpose, and there's no quote about her skin hardening or anything as she's reflecting on her time there. And the suggestion that she needs a raping to become tougher or to want revenge against the Boltons is just outright sexist.

I think the funniest part (if there's any humor to be drawn from this at all) to me is that they think they're doing Theon's storyline a service here by giving us "buy-in" with someone we care about, when this undercuts his character too. Of course he'd want to save Sansa, the girl he had a crush on growing up. And of course there's other people around who would want to help Sansa. She's "worth" saving because she's a Stark. Jeyne wasn't, which was the whole point. And a point that D&D apparently agreed with too.

Assholes.

Terrific post!! I think you put into words what many of us think and feel......not just about that scene, but about what the making of that scene says about the show and the show runners. I wanted to thank you for that. :thumbsup:

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You seem to be forgetting that most people in the books think Jeyne is Arya Stark.

No one thinks Jeyne is Arya in the books, anymore than people believed Warbeck was Edward IV's son.

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Right, I think articles like that are born of the misunderstanding that we're upset that there was a depiction of rape at all. And like so many people still think that's what this is about. And it's not like we're sitting here thinking "god, we just would rather Jeyne was raped" as if these are two real girls and we care about one but not the other.

The issue with this was that it was a rape without any sense: plot-wise, character-wise. Like...we know that it was all for shock-value because it's exactly what Cogman's quote about it said: "you go with the girl the audience knows." Because that would horrify us.

And that's exactly what the rape-victim's piece is getting at too. Jeyne's rape is handled with sensitivity, not because the depiction of the scene is better for the feint of heart (far, far from it), but because Martin dealt with it intimately. He didn't toss it in so Jeyne could "rise from the ashes" or any hackneyed trope. He dealt with her brutalization with respect to her character and never, ever let us forget the damning consequences.

But again, Sansa isn't Jeyne. You can't blithely swap Girl A for Girl B and act as if it's going to have the same point or result. It utterly, utterly destroys the narrative. And frankly the fact that the writers thought these two women would be interchangeable and "service the plot" in the same way? That's outright offensive.

Then there's the major, major issues about the lack of sense this entire set-up had. No one has yet to explain how Sansa marrying Ramsay is a good idea. Because it isn't. Because when you're the "last remaining Stark" whose "maidenhood" is of value, marrying the family that slaughtered yours and "giving up" your "virginity"...which does inherently come with the expectation of children...that does absolutely nothing to strengthen your position.

"Make him yours." Why? So she can rule Winterfell in the name of the Boltons? Fuck, she wasn't even marrying Roose to gain a position of power.

And the fact is, the writers sat down and thought to themselves "we think it will be better [for Ramsay, for Theon] to have Sansa be the girl getting raped" without bothering to even think of a logical reason why this would come to pass.

This idiotic idea that we should "wait and see" where it goes...what, because they've been so fucking respectful to Sansa's character? When we know the entire set-up was for truly gratuitous (aka uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted) reasons, then the aftermath is irredeemable.

Also, what are our best case scenarios here? Sansa will rise harder and stronger from this? Because her abuse in King's Landing wasn't for that exact purpose, and there's no quote about her skin hardening or anything as she's reflecting on her time there. And the suggestion that she needs a raping to become tougher or to want revenge against the Boltons is just outright sexist.

I think the funniest part (if there's any humor to be drawn from this at all) to me is that they think they're doing Theon's storyline a service here by giving us "buy-in" with someone we care about, when this undercuts his character too. Of course he'd want to save Sansa, the girl he had a crush on growing up. And of course there's other people around who would want to help Sansa. She's "worth" saving because she's a Stark. Jeyne wasn't, which was the whole point. And a point that D&D apparently agreed with too.

Assholes.

All of this. Great post. Disgusting. Hateful. Sexist. Offensive. Trash.

Edited by Le Cygne

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You seem to be forgetting that most people in the books think Jeyne is Arya Stark.

I think her point might be that the reader knows. Also, LF knows Jeyne is lowborn and therefore has no value to him, as apposed to Sansa who is highborn.

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People, I know I am derailing this thread, but I have just seen Rattleshirt on the list of characters in episode no. 10.

That doesn't surprise me, we know he returns for the Hardhome battle/story line beyond the Wall. I'm not certain of all the episodic breakdown and placement, but that one's been known for awhile.

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Heh, you really had me going there! I didn't read your entire post because I didn't get that you were being sarcastic (and, thus, the post was confusing me given what I've read of your other posting on this subject). Whew! Glad you were being sarcastic!

Sorry about the confusion. I just felt the need to implement a policy of Mutually Assured Goofiness. When the story begins to get goofy and the explanation for it is goofy, I just feel the need to get goofy myself. The whole plot of Sansa marrying the Boltons to "destroy them from the inside" seems like a plot from a really bad 1980s action movie. Except maybe even Rambo wouldn't marry into the Boltons.

<snip>

Agree. Great post.

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Sorry about the confusion. I just felt the need to implement a policy of Mutually Assured Goofiness. When the story begins to get goofy and the explanation for it is goofy, I just feel the need to get goofy myself. The whole plot of Sansa marrying the Boltons to "destroy them from the inside" seems like a plot from a really bad 1980s action movie. Except maybe even Rambo wouldn't marry into the Boltons.

Mutually Assured Goofiness! Perfect! :lol:

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When Sansa married Ramsay it was the equivalent of a complete surrender of all things Stark to house Bolton. Becoming Lady Bolton The Lesser, Sansa has and will continue to be raped and mentally tormented and quite possibly become impregnated by the same said monster. Now, Brian Cogman says that marrying and consummating the marriage to Ramsay is a very important step for Sansa to reclaim her homeland. Is this guy on f ---king crack? What happened last week was the culmination of complete and total victory of house Bolton over house Stark, to that point. Again, Rickon and Bran are not known to Sansa yet, but even without, that is the last thing Sansa should have done is go there and marry Ramsay. The show writters, as has been said my me and others to exhaustion, have wanted Sansa in this position for 4 years. They waited and waited until season 4 was over and then they revealed to the actors and actess involved and they all were blown away. The storyline is totally screwed. The character involved is devasted and degregated but they basically are saying that she, Sansa does not matter as much as Theon. In the end, it is about the torture/porn, shock and awe that they think is good TV. IT is still sick and they need to not be let off the hook for what they have done.


Edited by Lord Damian

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. Now, Brian Cogman says that marrying and consummating the marriage to Ramsay is a very important step for Sansa to reclaim her homeland. Is this guy on f ---king crack?

Not gonna look for it, but I posted a snippet from one of the producers that said something like 'on her account, Sansa has claimed winterfell in the name of the Starks.'

My reaction was like, really??? By ALL accounts, the Boltons just claimed The North entirely. What is this guy smokin'?

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In the end, it is about the torture/porn, shock and awe that they think is good TV. IT is still sick and they need to not be let off the hook for what they have done.

Out of interest what do you think should happen to these sicko purveyors of torture porn?`

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Out of interest what do you think should happen to these sicko purveyors of torture porn?`

Send them to Room 23 like Walt and Carl

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Not gonna look for it, but I posted a snippet from one of the producers that said something like 'on her account, Sansa has claimed winterfell in the name of the Starks.'

My reaction was like, really??? By ALL accounts, the Boltons just claimed The North entirely. What is this guy smokin'?

Sometimes I get the feeling that our world is joined with an alternative universe. That's the only sane explanation for some people's opinions.

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