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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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Well, tbh D&D fucked up with Theon torture anyway. They should've left him out of the show to focus on him with the aftermath this season.. And yeah, Jeyne subplot, Manderly and the freypies, Abel and the Washerwomen, Lady Dustin and the crypts... I mean, this is good material. Probably the best material of aDwD.

So in season 5 out of 7 you would introduced a host of new characters, had to set them up (as in show who they are and why they matter to the story), introduced a whole new fake Arya sub plot, totally change the wall plot, find a different arc for Brienne and Pod etc etc. We've had 5 years of this whinging. get over it. The show and books are different. As they always had to be.

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Poor little D & D. It was just impossible to adapt the Vale story line. And they just didn't have enough time. They just had to merge Sansa with Jeyne.



Cry me a fucking river.

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No doubt. Empowerment! Unless they go there with the Rosemary's Baby subplot.

Well she will need to do something next season: since she has no Vale plot the Ramsmary's Baby plot seems bloody likely especially if other characters can be horrible to her about it. Indeed between that and trying to persuade Stannis not to kill Theon because he's a good guy really....because suffering abuse from the same person totally makes you forgive the fact they basically started the downward spiral for your brother and mother, murdered your retainers and friends, pretended to kill your younger brothers necessitating them to go into hiding and then burnt your home to the ground I don't think she'll have time for anything else. But never fear she will get the great ending of Tyrion swooping in to take her back and her being overjoyed and grateful to him, probably apologise to him too for not being happier with her forced marriage etc.

Sorry this is crackpot but I would now put money on it that that is roughly where they are heading with their Jeyansa story. If not, I will be very pleasantly surprised!

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Poor little D & D. It was just impossible to adapt the Vale story line. And they just didn't have enough time. They just had to merge Sansa with Jeyne.

Cry me a fucking river.

Why the book purists are so angry at us, we are trying our best :bawl:

I mean, an adaptation of a book without reading it, it's kinda hard. :dunno:

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Oh well then. Let's have Sansa wake a stone dragon from the depths of Winterfell's crypts and ride it across the north killing all Bolton sympathisers.

No? That's okay. I don't have to defend my choice.

That's a pretty awesome choice though.

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Poor little D & D. It was just impossible to adapt the Vale story line. And they just didn't have enough time. They just had to merge Sansa with Jeyne.

Cry me a fucking river.

Bless. The nasty men at HBO didn't make GoT exactly how I wanted. Wah wah wah.

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Why the book purists are so angry at us, we are trying our best :bawl:

I mean, an adaptation of a book without reading it, it's kinda hard. :dunno:

It's really not teir fault if the ONLY salvageable thing in the last two books was some chick being abused in a variety of hilarious ways.

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Sorry this is crackpot but I would now put money on it that that is roughly where they are heading with their Jeyansa story. If not, I will be very pleasantly surprised!

I suspect GRRM has no such ending planned, since they just tossed that marriage aside like it was nothing, it will be tossed aside in the books, too.

Edited by Le Cygne

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<snip>

The showrunners aged Tommen up to the medieval age of consent precisely so they could have him and Margaery sleep together. It didn't do Tommen's character any favours, frankly, but the showrunners just wanted more sex.

But they didn't age him intellectually/psychologically, he still behaves like a boy who wants to ban beets. It's yet another example of doing one thing (ageing Tommen) to enable you to do something else (have the character have sex) with little to no regard to logic or consistency.

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But they didn't age him intellectually/psychologically, he still behaves like a boy who wants to ban beets. It's yet another example of doing one thing (ageing Tommen) to enable you to do something else (have the character have sex) with little to no regard to logic or consistency.

And we already have a SweetRobin. A second one was really unecessary. But i guess it was the logical thing to do for D&D to give Natalie Dormer explicit scenes :dunno:

Edited by Rena Melville

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But they didn't age him intellectually/psychologically, he still behaves like a boy who wants to ban beets. It's yet another example of doing one thing (ageing Tommen) to enable you to do something else (have the character have sex) with little to no regard to logic or consistency.

I completely agree with you. Although I feel beet-banning Tommen has more of a backbone than his D&D teenaged counterpart.

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I suspect GRRM has no such ending planned,

Fingers crossed! I suspect that whole same destination thing is the same as two people setting off from Japan and arriving in LA only one arrives at a port after a voyage across the Pacific with many stops on route and the other flies into LAX.

Technically they have both made it to the same destination but the journey and the exact details of arrival are very different.

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So you think Sansa getting raped is an improvement on her arc in the books?

Next phase version 1: She spends a small amount of time in depression and then finds some strength out of nowhere and instigates vengeance on the Boltons.

Next phase version 2: She becomes the Jeyne Poole of the books. Broken, demoralised, in constant fear and incapable of human intimacy. She needs saving from this 'Winterhell' and Theon finds himself and whisks her away when Stannis' forces arrive.

Version 1 is not in keeping with the way GRRM tries to deal realistically with horrific events. One reason for the wide appeal of ASOIAF/GOT outside of the usual fantasy crowd is this attempt to deal realistically with its situations and treat them seriously. This version is more in line with Exploitation Movie writing, which is geared towards shock value and extremism. This is what I believe they will go for. What has happened to Sansa will not be dealt with realistically.

Version 2 has destroyed Sansa's character development and leaves the writers, if they want to treat the subject matter seriously and deal realistically with the consequences of what happens, with a huge amount of work to do in establishing Sansa getting over what has happened to her. Jeyne Poole will never get over what has happened to her and the books will reflect this. I suspect D&D will not deal realistically with what has happened to Sansa and if they do then it beggars belief that anyone would want this to be her story line.

Both versions are bad choices for the story and bad choices for Sansa's character arc/development.

And this is to say nothing of the ridiculous contrivances they concocted to get Sansa in this position.

+1, needs to be read. I said something similar to this in another discussion board. "Wait and see" doesn't cut it here. Not to mention it does a disservice to Jeyne Poole's character if she gets over it like nothing (That's for those "You no care about Jeyne!!" strawmanners. I still think both characters aren't comparable but whatever). Both outcomes are bad storytelling. The whole thing is horribly contrived.

Edited by Aleenys

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Fingers crossed!

I gave up on her show story. But I think we'll like her book story. ;)

Edited by Le Cygne

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Fingers crossed! I suspect that whole same destination thing is the same as two people setting off from Japan and arriving in LA only one arrives at a port after a voyage across the Pacific with many stops on route and the other flies into LAX.

Technically they have both made it to the same destination but the journey and the exact details of arrival are very different.

Yes! They could even name the episode LA X, because that's never been done before on television!

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Yes! They could even name the episode LA X, because that's never been done before on television!

Perfect! :lol:

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But they didn't age him intellectually/psychologically, he still behaves like a boy who wants to ban beets. It's yet another example of doing one thing (ageing Tommen) to enable you to do something else (have the character have sex) with little to no regard to logic or consistency.

They explicitly refer to him as being eight years old in season one-so unless a minimum of eight years has passed since, he's barely scraping thirteen and is a child.

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I made this post earlier in the week very angry about the scene and I rated the episode a 3.


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129075-book-spoilers-ep506-discussion-v-2/?p=7000934 I said in another forum that it was officially a bad show.



A week later after reading everyone's arguments with an open mind, I'm actually starting to warm up a little to it. People have made good arguments on both sides. I thought Elio and Linda made a very good case for it here in their review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcnwhMrVJjg#t=57m I like this explanation better than the one in their small 10 minute video because it's more in depth.



I was confused when I watched it. They made a big deal in the show about that she wasn't scared and her goal was to manipulate Ramsay and she didn't even try anything. I asked "Why did you agree to marry him then?" I thought after I watched it that it was saying that Sansa was willing to be put up with being raped to get her revenge, which would have been abominable. Now I understand she was willing to go through with it at first but she had no idea what she was getting into. She thought she could manipulate him but now after seeing what a monster he was, she's just terrified. That makes sense. Any plan she thought she had is out the window. She's a total victim. She was convinced to put herself into a situation worse than being with Joffrey by Littlefinger.



I'm mixed on it now and I'm willing to wait and see. If it makes her a better or worse character, it depends on what they do. One thing for sure is she has to either flee or try to flee Winterfell. She can't put up with it. She can come back after Stannis cleans the place of Boltons.



One good thing about Sansa being in Winterfell with Theon. She'll be able to find out Bran and Rickon are still alive. Maybe the story is she draws strength from that, rather than being rape empowered. What purpose does the rape serve then? I don't know, maybe it's what causes her to finally stop trusting Littlefinger and turn against him.



What about I'm about to say doesn't make the scene better at all. If it's bad, it's bad. This is not in support of it. This is just a side note. I do like the discussion it generated. I liked seeing how many people deeply cared about Sansa. This was a Red Wedding type reaction. Even after it aired, I didn't see that coming. If-when she does eventually do something great, people are going to be really ecstatic about it. Hopefully, Season 6 would have her no longer trusting Littlefinger and in charge of Winterfell by herself making Frey pies.


Edited by Lothar

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