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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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It was a montage. Note the parallel though between her washing long hair and Sansa's bath - same actions on the hair, same kind of dripping into the same kind of bucket.

Well spotted, undoubtedly deliberate. But the parallel is not between the sisters, it is between Sansa and the cadaever and Myranda and Arya.

Oh and Myranda does seem a bit anxious for Sansa to die, doesn't she? But Myranda is also a parallel to the girl who demonstrates how to play the game of faces. Both Stark girls are being shown how the game is played and not told.

I'm also in the camp that does not understand why the Sansa WF scene is being perceived as illogical. Horrific? yes, illogical, hardly. It's perfectly logical given what a psychopath Ramsay is, and it moves multiple plots, Reek's redemption, Sansa's ultimate revenge on the Boltons will be even sweeter, andmost important of all is another example of what LF said many seasons ago. Some people ( in this case the so-called Darth Sansa) think they are players in the game of thrones, but they are jus pawns to the real players (LF).

Also given Sophie's previous comments on a scene worse than TRW and Jeyne's rape, when we found out that Sansa was going to marry Ramsay I was expeting a rape scene of similar proportions to the one in a clockwork orange or something. Could things get wrose for Sansa before they get any better?

Sansa obviously expected the bedding. But the part that makes it horrific and turns it into rape is Reek being ordered to watch. And that is so twisted at so many levels. Sansa loathes Reek, he is watching her. Reek loathes himself and watching Sansa being raped by Ramsay is torture for him. But the part that makes it rape is the very fact he is watching.

Also note that Reek is being punished here for Sansa not allowing Reek to walk her down the aisle. But the impact of the punishment is on Sansa.

It was basically inevitable once that revealed Sansa would be marrying Ramsay. He was going to consummate the marriage. The only alternative would be Sansa consenting to sex with Ramsay. THAT would be illogical.

Consenting to the sex was part of the marriage. Sansa expected that. But Ramsay turns it into rape for sheer sadism.

Sansa has a choice here, she can follow Little Finger's advice and win Ramsay over or she can take her own course.

What I would like to see happen is Sansa turns the tables on Myranda. Has her escape with Brienne while she escapes by her own route. As Sansa keeps pointing out, Winterfell is her home, she knows the place better than anyone else apart from the servants who are loyal to her and not to the Boltons.

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At the final scene of the Episode, it appears that Sansa is Bowed, Bent, Broken. But the title of the Episode is Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. Was Sansa showing false suffering at the scene? Because she must have understood that her suffering is what Ramsay the Psycho wants from Myranda's words and since she now knows what Ramsay wants, she will find a way to move him (like manipulating him into killing Walda, maybe even Roose too) and she might be still Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken in the inside.

The title was "ironic" nothing more than that. Everyone is bowed, bent and broken at the end of this episode pretty much. Tyrion and Jorah captured by Slavers; Jaime, Bronn and the Sandsnakes arrested; Same for Margaery and Loras.

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I think she was prepared to have sex. She was taking off her clothes, just slowly, and willingly married the guy knowing marriage involves sex. She was just a little shocked that he made Theon stay and watch, and probably not 100% ready for her first time (who is?) compounded by the fact it's with this asshole. It was pretty tame vanilla sex, though, especially compared to what he does to Jeyne Poole and apparently being covered in blood during sex with Myranda from past scenes.


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White Harbors Wrath,

Not saying the characters really NEED to be humanized, but let's face it, the Unsullied come across as rather generic. One could argue that that's a result of their training, that they're encouraged to subsume their individual identities into their fighting unit. The identical armor and equipment doesnt help, from the viewer's point of view.

On a totally unrelated note, the slavers scene would've made more sense if:

1. Dany's new policy is to buy and manumit foreign slaves.

2. The slavers were on their way to SB with human cargo and opportunistically added Jorah and Tyrion to the bunch.

3. Cock merchants (as Dave Barry would say, perfect name for a rock band!) prefer to keep their dwarves alive until a customer shows up with money.

4. Jorah is surreptitiously brushing his greyscale-infected arm against every slaver he can reach. (He might also comment on the irony that he was exiled for slaving in the first place).

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The title was "ironic" nothing more than that. Everyone is bowed, bent and broken at the end of this episode pretty much. Tyrion and Jorah captured by Slavers; Jaime, Bronn and the Sandsnakes arrested; Same for Margaery and Loras.

Tyrion and Jorah were far from broken. Jaime also has nothing to fear.

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I loved this episode.

But as many have noted, there are small plot wholes all over. Especially high in season 5.

I hope they add some more writers to season 6 to cross check and verify what they write

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Here's my attempt to be grown up about Sansa's arc.

I don't get why people think that Sansa getting in a bad situation means that her last scene of season 4 doesn't make sense. Character arcs don't go need to learn something, learn it , win. They usually have characters trying many multiple tactics to get to their goal or even repeating the same mistakes over and over until they succeed. A 2 hour movie will usually 4 or 5 different screw ups by the main character before they finally get on the right track so an 8 season epic fantasy season should have quite a few more than that. In real life most people do continually make the same mistakes, get in the same holes and continue the same habits while somebody completely changing the way they react to situations or changing their world view is usually very difficult once or twice in a decade event and fiction reflects this.

I think the trouble is that people have gotten to respect LF too much. This means that Sansa turning into LF 2.0 is not seen as an obviously bad thing in the way that, say, Arya become no one is. Really all the characters on apprenticeship type arcs are being set up to fail and it is just that some are more obvious than others. We know all the time that no matter how well Dany does with organising Meereen she will be leaving but with Jon we don't realise that being leader of the NW is not his ultimate role until his final chapter. Similarly with Sansa we think she is safe because we have not seen the end of her arc but it may well be that what happens in the show with Ramsey is not dissimilar to what happens with Harry. Being smart at politics doesn't stop someone being sexually naive. Wearing a black dress did not turn a teenage girl into a seductress.

I think the rape is not meant to empower her like in some daft Hollywood film but it will change her. It will stop her trusting LF and make her more self-reliant. Hopefully it will drive a wedge between her and LF that no amount of his smarming on his part will be able to heal (and without any "LF killed your father and tried to kill your brother" info dump). I think the show is revealing that the point of Sansa's character was never to become a player (which sounds pretty disgusting and stupid now we have seen the effects of such game playing on a well loved character rather than just a stand in) but to be someone who decides they don't want to play LF and Varys's game and goes their own way. This ties in with Sophie's comments about Sansa wanting to start a new house, she wants to succeed on her merits and forge her own destiny rather than play the Stark card. There's a good chance that Sansa will become more like Stannis, living by his own moral code and not even trying to play the game, rather than LF. It didn't work for Ned because he was ultra-honourable and politically inept but Sansa is neither of those things.

This episode not only showed what a sham and risk arranged marriages are through Sansa's arc but also in Marg's story. Power through marriage is a great dynastic tool just so long as you are not the one in the marriage pact. Even if she had been married to someone who seemed like Mr Nice Guy she would still have been at risk of the same treatment on her wedding night. I think LF and Lysa and Dany and Drogo are relevant here as to how show Sansa might react. LF was disgusted by Lysa, she demanded sex, and threatened his life if he did not give her what she wanted lets not forget, but he put up with it as he had a plan from the start and was just waiting for an opportunity it push her out the moon door. Dany had no idea what she was doing, she had months of living hell until she learned to please Drogo and had to internalise her need to please him to survive as love. From Sophie's comment about Sansa needing to try and understand Ramsay and how to please him we can see she will probably go down the Dany path at first but we also know (as we have been blatantly told) she has a plan and I expect that part of her to win out by the end of the season even if it is just jumping over the wall with Theon to find Stannis. Whatever happens I bet that show Sansa will never see political marriage as an acceptable tool again.

That Vanity Fair article is disgusting. It is either saying that women who have power and agency don't get raped or that women who are raped no longer have power or agency. Seriously some of the anti-show comments are far more messed up about rape than those trying to work out what it means in the show. Does it mean Sansa is stupid because she should have seen it coming? No because, as I have said above, anyone in that situation, no matter how nice the other party seems, is vulnerable to the same thing happening to them. People worrying about Sansa's arc not working now she has lost her virginity or that she might be pregnant. No one was worried about whether Jeyne might be carrying Ramsay's child as she was being beaten or getting frostbite. Neither Cersei, Dany or Lysa had their marriage prospects dented by being a mother. People might also want to remember that in the original story GRRM planned for Sansa to have Joffery's child so it's not completely against her character.

I also want to point out that it is clear from the leaked story outline that GRRM split a lot of his original characters main into three or four different characters as he expanded the story. It may well have been that the original character to have taken Jeyne Poole's role was Sansa but GRRM in the end decided that he wanted her to spend more time around LF. The original story may well have had a young mother Sansa being raped by evil Jaime and we just read the fractured shards of that story. GRRM is repeating is "the same story told differently" thing on his blog again. I would believe him rather than trying to put words in his mouth.

Agreed! :agree:

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I think she was prepared to have sex. She was taking off her clothes, just slowly, and willingly married the guy knowing marriage involves sex. She was just a little shocked that he made Theon stay and watch, and probably not 100% ready for her first time (who is?) compounded by the fact it's with this asshole. It was pretty tame vanilla sex, though, especially compared to what he does to Jeyne Poole and apparently being covered in blood during sex with Myranda from past scenes.

Absolutely. I agree. Sansa was aware that it was time to consummate the marriage. She wasn't prepared for the audience or the roughness. Although she did get a taste of how nasty he could be when they had dinner with his Dad and Walda Frey. Not to mention, Miranda's comments during bath time.

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Sansa obviously expected the bedding. But the part that makes it horrific and turns it into rape is Reek being ordered to watch. And that is so twisted at so many levels. Sansa loathes Reek, he is watching her. Reek loathes himself and watching Sansa being raped by Ramsay is torture for him. But the part that makes it rape is the very fact he is watching.

Also note that Reek is being punished here for Sansa not allowing Reek to walk her down the aisle. But the impact of the punishment is on Sansa.

I wasn't saying it wasn't horrific, rather than the whole scene was not out of place given where the characters are at this juncture in the show. Good catch on this being a punishment for Reek, I hadn't thought of that. Was there an equivalent in ADWD? I can't recall of the top of my head.

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That was some powerful television at the end. I'm shocked they took it as far as they did. I expected Theon to have done something before the bedding. Considering this show, it could have been a lot worse. Judging by the locked threads some people on here need to remember TV Sansa is not Book Sansa, if they check the pages of their books they will find an unharmed Sansa.



The one issue I do have with the current TV version is why Loras hasn't demanded Trial by Combat, he is one of the best fighters in the Kingdom.


Perhap the birth mark evidence is enough to prove guilt....


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Sansa obviously expected the bedding. But the part that makes it horrific and turns it into rape is Reek being ordered to watch. And that is so twisted at so many levels. Sansa loathes Reek, he is watching her. Reek loathes himself and watching Sansa being raped by Ramsay is torture for him. But the part that makes it rape is the very fact he is watching.

Also note that Reek is being punished here for Sansa not allowing Reek to walk her down the aisle. But the impact of the punishment is on Sansa.

Consenting to the sex was part of the marriage. Sansa expected that. But Ramsay turns it into rape for sheer sadism.

Interesting thoughts, I haven't looked at it that way. I just don't get why this scene was too much for some people, when it was really tame compared to what happens to Jeyne in the books. I didn't particularly like the scene but it didn't really shock me. There have been many horrific things depicted in this show right from the get go. This is simply the nature of the story. And if something meaningful comes out of it in Sansa's storyline in future episodes (which at this point I highly doubt), then maybe it wasn't pointless.

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At the final scene of the Episode, it appears that Sansa is Bowed, Bent, Broken. But the title of the Episode is Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. Was Sansa showing false suffering at the scene? Because she must have understood that her suffering is what Ramsay the Psycho wants from Myranda's words and since she now knows what Ramsay wants, she will find a way to move him (like manipulating him into killing Walda, maybe even Roose too) and she might be still Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken in the inside.

I think she really was suffering.

She's still a virgin (despite what Ramsay might believe) and she wasn't "ready" for the sex act. (Remember in the books, how it was Reek's job to get Jeyne "ready"?)

The fact that Theon was watching would only have heightened Sansa's suffering.

That was some powerful television at the end. I'm shocked they took it as far as they did. I expected Theon to have done something before the bedding. Considering this show, it could have been a lot worse. Judging by the locked threads some people on here need to remember TV Sansa is not Book Sansa, if they check the pages of their books they will find an unharmed Sansa.

The one issue I do have with the current TV version is why Loras hasn't demanded Trial by Combat, he is one of the best fighters in the Kingdom.

Perhap the birth mark evidence is enough to prove guilt....

It's only a guess, but it's possible that because he is being tried by the Faith, trial by combat isn't an option.

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It's only a guess, but it's possible that because he is being tried by the Faith, trial by combat isn't an option.

That doesn't make sense, because the endgame of this story is a trial by combat. Hence, when Cersei ends up arrested, the Robert Strong combat.

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I haven't seen any indication that trials by combat are banned by the faith in the show, they certainly are not in the books...


Edited by SerDoublePost

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That doesn't make sense, because the endgame of this story is a trial by combat. Hence, when Cersei ends up arrested, the Robert Strong combat.

exactly, Robert Strong is being prep'd in Qyburn's lab so presumably we're getting one for Cersei.

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At the final scene of the Episode, it appears that Sansa is Bowed, Bent, Broken. But the title of the Episode is Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. Was Sansa showing false suffering at the scene? Because she must have understood that her suffering is what Ramsay the Psycho wants from Myranda's words and since she now knows what Ramsay wants, she will find a way to move him (like manipulating him into killing Walda, maybe even Roose too) and she might be still Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken in the inside.

This is my hope for where they are going with the character, since they decided to sub her into the FArya role. Assuming she hasn't reverted to S1-2 Sansa she's got the information to know well before the wedding what kind of scum Ramsay is, between his dinner time douchery and her talks with Myranda. She opted to not light the candle in the tower, so she went into her bedding with eyes open as to what was going to happen. Being anything less than the wounded bird was going to either set Ramsay down a much nastier path or arouse suspicions if she's looking to lull him into a false sense of security. "In-Peril" Sansa is what the Bolton's expect her to be and that could be used to leverage advantages that a sassy, empowered Sansa would not be able to. None of this makes it any less horrible, except that she may be choosing to endure Ramsay for the sake of the talked about 'revenge' plan.

Or it could be a horrid re-tread of previous ground.

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I saw the Arya getting slapped as she was lying and didn't even realize it. She didn't hate the Hound in the end and Jaqen could sense it even if she couldn't, so to him she was lying.

I believe that Arya purposefully lied which is why she gave the correct answer after being hit. I also think that she thought she was giving the correct answer about the Hound. She's spent so much time hating him! But after being his traveling companion for so long, her heart has softened towards him. She didn't want to admit it to herself. That is why Jaqen say "a little girl lies to herself" or something like that.

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The one issue I do have with the current TV version is why Loras hasn't demanded Trial by Combat, he is one of the best fighters in the Kingdom.

The trial didnot start yet. After the meeting, the HS said that he has enough evidences to start a trial. Loras should demand trial by combat as soon as the trial starts. Or we will have another plot hole.

Edited by Mithras

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