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[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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Yes, I agree and Sansa and Littlefinger could have been destinguished guests as a "reach out" by Bolton to gain allies. No, the showrunners already stated that they chose sansa to go into this plotline and yes, be raped, and have a psycho/ sexual marriage with him for 3-4 years now. This thing we are seeing has been in the works and a close secret that was only revealed to the cast when they met to start filming season 5. Everything we are seeing was stated to be desireable to put Sansa, a character that us, the fans are "invested in" to grip us "emotionally". Well, they succeeded. Unfortunately, they may have lost some viewers and from what some major publications globally are printing/writting, they have lost a lot of respect, professionally.

In fact, having Sansa and LF pose as Vale guests to the wedding would have been hella cool, considering what that could mean for real!Sansa. Seeing whats going on and deciding to act in absolute secrecy to win back the North. Meeting with Manderly even without LF's knowledge. To further cement that she has become rather cunning.

But no...they have been planning to brutalize the character as you say. And you are right. The show has lost a lot of credibility as a quality show in the eyes of critics and journalists everywhere.

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I wasn't saying it wasn't horrific, rather than the whole scene was not out of place given where the characters are at this juncture in the show. Good catch on this being a punishment for Reek, I hadn't thought of that. Was there an equivalent in ADWD? I can't recall of the top of my head.

I thought the show version vastly better than the book. The show could not possibly come close to the book Ramsay. Having Reek 'prepare' Jayne would have caused shrieks of anger. And thats not half of it.

So they raised the stakes by making a less terrible thing happen to a character people care about.

I am so done with the 'Lemoncakes'. Let them stamp their feet and complain about the whole Sansa plotline. What they are really complaining about is that something bad happens to Sansa and Little Finger turns out to be just as bad as Ramsay.

It's only a guess, but it's possible that because he is being tried by the Faith, trial by combat isn't an option.

Did that proceeding look anything like a fair trial to you?

This is a group of religious zealots, they make it up as they go along.

That doesn't make sense, because the endgame of this story is a trial by combat. Hence, when Cersei ends up arrested, the Robert Strong combat.

Oh they will find a pretext that stops Ser Loras demanding trial by combat. They have the heirs of Highgarden as hostages and thats all there is to it. So now Highgarden is going to starve Kings Landing.

You have a very weird definition of "paying off":Oliver's his squire. He'd have seen Loras naked plenty of times in non-sexual circumstances.

The payoff was that they got Loras to admit that he lied by attacking him. That was effectively an admission of guilt. Had he been innocent he would have realized that his squire sees him naked all the time. And no, you do not wear 'clothes' under armor.

The squire would be responsible for bathing the knight after it was all done.

Having eye witnesses present at the consumation of political marriages was quite common in medieval times.

Remember the show Rome and how there were slaves around the bed whenever their owners had sex?

They did not have people who murdered two of their brothers watch. The circumstances are totally different.

But it is more about Theon than Sansa. Ramsay is doing it to torture both of them but he is pushing Theon to the point his conditioning snaps.

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It saddens me to see how so many people completely miss the point of this show. Grab a pen and i'll spell it out for you, ye damn book snobs.



Boobies, dragons and violence.

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The problem isn’t that this episode included a rape, but that it did so in the service of bad storytelling.

This is from an article that can be found here http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/game-of-thrones-is-gross-exploitative-and-totally-out-1705235364?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow. Its an extraordinary commentary on how far this show has fallen now that it has 1) literally no input from the author and 2) covering the completely forgettable events of Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons.

Seriously, the worst-case-scenario for readers and Martin critics has been realized. The show is being run by two guys who cannot be trusted to go off script, even if that script is only "meh."

I may have more to say but when people on these threads are OPENLY discussing never watching the show again... you are not having a good time.

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The stupidity of the show writers is impossible to defend. First of all, they bought TV rights for a fantasy genre masterpiece and turned it into a mixture of soap opera and torture porn. That is like buying a painting by Leonardo and giving it to an art student instead of blanc canvas so that he can paint his first painting ever.



I blame huge egos and not enough talent paired with an enormous amount of greed and lots of focus group research by the HBO relevant department.



So, in order to explain my position, I will stick to the show and forget about the books for now.


- Tyrion told us the story of Tysha, his first wife, twice in the show. And that was a classic Chekov's gun. We had a story filed in our brains and writers just had to use it in an appropriate moment. When that moment came (Jaime releases Tyrion from prison), the story is never told. So, Tyrion has no motive to seek Tywin out. He has no motive to kill him. Or, to be more precise, he has the same motive ha had in season 1 episode 1. There was nothing to tip Tyrion over the edge. So, why was Tysha story introduced in the first place?


- Barristan Selmy crossed half of Essos to find Daenerys. His show value since he found her was to tell her a couple of tales about her father and brother that might have been told by anyone else. Then the character, whom Jaime described as "the painter who paints in red" and the best knight he has ever known, strolls down a city on a verge of mutiny without armour and gets killed like a novice. That is a waste of screen time, character, money and plot.


- Gendry was left rowing at some point in the show. No followup for a long time. Is he still rowing?


- Locke was sent to the Wall by the Boltons only to get killed by Bran inside Hodor. What was the purpose of that arc? What did the show achieve with it? Would anything have changed if that arc had not been there? Yes, there would be more screen time for things that actually matter.


- Brothel scenes are mostly totally unjustified by plots and exist solely to achieve some pre-set nudity quota per episode.


- Rape scenes in Crasters keep were so casual as if they were portraying some sport.


- The latest rape scene makes no dramaturgical sense. Boltons are keen to take control over the North. They are about to face Stannis's army and they are facing a silent mutiny and disapproval of all other northern lords. Sansa is their card to legalisation of their position. And Ramsey rapes her on their wedding night forcing Theon to watch. He has just thrown all his father's diplomatic work down the drain. So, what is the purpose of that scene? To show Ramsey is mad? We know he is mad. That has been established. To show he is stupid? Maybe. But, that has also been established. To shock the audience? After the RW, it would not be an easy task. On the other hand, the show established Sansa as a character who has grown and took her destiny into her own hands. How did they establish it? By showing us that she can lie effectively and with a plan. And by having Sansa change her appearance. The latter is a stupid method abandoned even in amateurish theatres, let alone expensive productions. However, they could not find any other method to demonstrate the change. Then they go back on their own arc and regress the same character to its season 2 part of the arc. The only conclusion therefore is that the rape scene in WF had been done for a sole purpose of shocking the audience in hope of pushing the ratings even higher. since the producers already experienced backlash last season with the sept rape scene, it takes a lot of stupidity to repeat the exercise and push the stakes even higher. So, we had to watch through Theon another pointless tourture porn. There is no justification for this.



I can go on and give many more examples, but I have to conclude that the show has proven to be sexist, anti-gay and bursting with stereotypes. It has become offensive. And what is more offensive is the fact that the producers are not even aware how offensive they are. The whole invented Missandei/Greyworm romance is, apart from being pointless from the perspective of the plot, totally racist and patronising. Plus, it has zero plot value. Gay stereotype Loras is a caricature, not a character. From the tourney scene in season 1 to the latest episode we had no character development.



Jaime Lannister had a lovely development arc until they returned him to KG. Now, we have no idea who that man is, what is he up to and what drives him. And so on.



GRRM has created a beautifully interwoven Persian carpet of arcs and plots that create a complex pattern with deep universal messages and emotions. He has written complex characters and consistently developed them. The show at this point resembles an industrial two coloured synthetic carpet full of cigarette burns and food stains after a whole night of an intensive poker game that ended in a fight. I wish that carpet is as exciting as the poker game I have just described.



And why did all this happen? Because HBO gave a free reign to rookies who felt their first success, it got into their heads, inflated their egos and greed and reduced the size of their brains accordingly. So, at this point, D&D resemble Mad King and Euron Greyjoy respectively. Only a good slap in the face from the critics and the audience can save this show from becoming an unredeemable rape of GRRM's masterpiece.


Edited by Modesty Lannister

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It saddens me to see how so many people completely miss the point of this show. Grab a pen and i'll spell it out for you, ye damn book snobs.

Boobies, dragons and violence.

You forgot FIYAH AND BLAHD!

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In fact, having Sansa and LF pose as Vale guests to the wedding would have been hella cool, considering what that could mean for real!Sansa. Seeing whats going on and deciding to act in absolute secrecy to win back the North. Meeting with Manderly even without LF's knowledge. To further cement that she has become rather cunning.

But no...they have been planning to brutalize the character as you say. And you are right. The show has lost a lot of credibility as a quality show in the eyes of critics and journalists everywhere.

This is actually a brilliant way to shoehorn Sansa to the North if that's what they wanted to do. I would have actually really enjoyed this idea if done right.

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The stupidity of the show writers is impossible to defend. First of all, they bought TV rights for a fantasy genre masterpiece and turned it into a mixture of soap opera and torture porn. That is like buying a painting by Leonardo and giving it to an art student instead of blanc canvas so that he can paint his first painting ever.

I blame huge egos and not enough talent paired with an enormous amount of greed and lots of focus group research by the HBO relevant department.

So, in order to explain my position, I will stick to the show and forget about the books for now.

- Tyrion told us the story of Tysha, his first wife, twice in the show. And that was a classic Chekov's gun. We had a story filed in our brains and writers just had to use it in an appropriate moment. When that moment came (Jaime releases Tyrion from prison), the story is never told. So, Tyrion has no motive to seek Tywin out. He has no motive to kill him. Or, to be more precise, he has the same motive ha had in season 1 episode 1. There was nothing to tip Tyrion over the edge. So, why was Tysha story introduced in the first place?

- Barristan Selmy crossed half of Essos to find Daenerys. His show value since he found her was to tell her a couple of tales about her father and brother that might have been told by anyone else. Then the character, whom Jaime described as "the painter who paints in red" and the best knight he has ever known, strolls down a city on a verge of mutiny without armour and gets killed like a novice. That is a waste of screen time, character, money and plot.

- Gendry was left rowing at some point in the show. No followup for a long time. Is he still rowing?

- Locke was sent to the Wall by the Boltons only to get killed by Bran inside Hodor. What was the purpose of that arc? What did the show achieve with it? Would anything have changed if that arc had not been there? Yes, there would be more screen time for things that actually matter.

- Brothel scenes are mostly totally unjustified by plots and exist solely to achieve some pre-set nudity quota per episode.

- Rape scenes in Crasters keep were so casual as if they were portraying some sport.

- The latest rape scene makes no dramaturgical sense. Boltons are keen to take control over the North. They are about to face Stannis's army and they are facing a silent mutiny and disapproval of all other northern lords. Sansa is their card to legalisation of their position. And Ramsey rapes her on their wedding night forcing Theon to watch. He has just thrown all his father's diplomatic work down the drain. So, what is the purpose of that scene? To show Ramsey is mad? We know he is mad. That has been established. To show he is stupid? Maybe. But, that has also been established. To shock the audience? After the RW, it would not be an easy task. On the other hand, the show established Sansa as a character who has grown and took her destiny into her own hands. How did they establish it? By showing us that she can lie effectively and with a plan. And by having Sansa change her appearance. The latter is a stupid method abandoned even in amateurish theatres, let alone expensive productions. However, they could not find any other method to demonstrate the change. Then they go back on their own arc and regress the same character to its season 2 part of the arc. The only conclusion therefore is that the rape scene in WF had been done for a sole purpose of shocking the audience in hope of pushing the ratings even higher. since the producers already experienced backlash last season with the sept rape scene, it takes a lot of stupidity to repeat the exercise and push the stakes even higher. So, we had to watch through Theon another pointless tourture porn. There is no justification for this.

I can go on and give many more examples, but I have to conclude that the show has proven to be sexist, anti-gay and bursting with stereotypes. It has become offensive. And what is more offensive is the fact that the producers are not even aware how offensive they are. The whole invented Missandei/Greyworm romance is, apart from being pointless from the perspective of the plot, totally racist and patronising. Plus, it has zero plot value. Gay stereotype Loras is a caricature, not a character. From the tourney scene in season 1 to the latest episode we had no character development.

Jaime Lannister had a lovely development arc until they returned him to KG. Now, we have no idea who that man is, what is he up to and what drives him. And so on.

GRRM has created a beautifully interwoven Persian carpet of arcs and plots that create a complex pattern with deep universal messages and emotions. He has written complex characters and consistently developed them. The show at this point resembles an industrial two coloured synthetic carpet full of cigarette burns and food stains after a whole night of an intensive poker game that ended in a fight. I wish that carpet is as exciting as the poker game I have just described.

And why did all this happen? Because HBO gave a free reign to rookies who felt their first success, it got into their heads, inflated their egos and greed and reduced the size of their brains accordingly. So, at this point, D&D resemble Mad King and Euron Greyjoy respectively. Only a good slap in the face from the critics and the audience can save this show from becoming an unredeemable rape of GRRM's masterpiece.

:bowdown:

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This might be looked back as a jump the shark episode. Even show only viewers and critics are starting to notice. Haven't found a person who bought that contrived monstrosity of a fight scene in Dorne.



As for the rape stuff, the show has an irredeemable reputation on sexual content now and they've earned it. I remember when the show first started there were some reviewers generalizing about how the series was just a show for male nerds based on books for male nerd readers. I think that criticism of the books has always been substantially wrong, but as it's gone it's become more valid as against the show. HBO is great with the freedom they allow their shows, but they would do better to reign people in.



Don Draper had sex with like 20 women over the course of Mad Men and absurd as that is it never felt rediculous. It probably has something to do with that they didn't frame half of the sex scenes in that show in Littlefinger's brothel.


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It saddens me to see how so many people completely miss the point of this show. Grab a pen and i'll spell it out for you, ye damn book snobs.

Boobies, dragons and violence.

I don't remember any boobies or dragons from this episode. Odd.

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The stupidity of the show writers is impossible to defend. First of all, they bought TV rights for a fantasy genre masterpiece and turned it into a mixture of soap opera and torture porn. That is like buying a painting by Leonardo and giving it to an art student instead of blanc canvas so that he can paint his first painting ever.

I blame huge egos and not enough talent paired with an enormous amount of greed and lots of focus group research by the HBO relevant department.

So, in order to explain my position, I will stick to the show and forget about the books for now.

- Tyrion told us the story of Tysha, his first wife, twice in the show. And that was a classic Chekov's gun. We had a story filed in our brains and writers just had to use it in an appropriate moment. When that moment came (Jaime releases Tyrion from prison), the story is never told. So, Tyrion has no motive to seek Tywin out. He has no motive to kill him. Or, to be more precise, he has the same motive ha had in season 1 episode 1. There was nothing to tip Tyrion over the edge. So, why was Tysha story introduced in the first place?

- Barristan Selmy crossed half of Essos to find Daenerys. His show value since he found her was to tell her a couple of tales about her father and brother that might have been told by anyone else. Then the character, whom Jaime described as "the painter who paints in red" and the best knight he has ever known, strolls down a city on a verge of mutiny without armour and gets killed like a novice. That is a waste of screen time, character, money and plot.

- Gendry was left rowing at some point in the show. No followup for a long time. Is he still rowing?

- Locke was sent to the Wall by the Boltons only to get killed by Bran inside Hodor. What was the purpose of that arc? What did the show achieve with it? Would anything have changed if that arc had not been there? Yes, there would be more screen time for things that actually matter.

- Brothel scenes are mostly totally unjustified by plots and exist solely to achieve some pre-set nudity quota per episode.

- Rape scenes in Crasters keep were so casual as if they were portraying some sport.

- The latest rape scene makes no dramaturgical sense. Boltons are keen to take control over the North. They are about to face Stannis's army and they are facing a silent mutiny and disapproval of all other northern lords. Sansa is their card to legalisation of their position. And Ramsey rapes her on their wedding night forcing Theon to watch. He has just thrown all his father's diplomatic work down the drain. So, what is the purpose of that scene? To show Ramsey is mad? We know he is mad. That has been established. To show he is stupid? Maybe. But, that has also been established. To shock the audience? After the RW, it would not be an easy task. On the other hand, the show established Sansa as a character who has grown and took her destiny into her own hands. How did they establish it? By showing us that she can lie effectively and with a plan. And by having Sansa change her appearance. The latter is a stupid method abandoned even in amateurish theatres, let alone expensive productions. However, they could not find any other method to demonstrate the change. Then they go back on their own arc and regress the same character to its season 2 part of the arc. The only conclusion therefore is that the rape scene in WF had been done for a sole purpose of shocking the audience in hope of pushing the ratings even higher. since the producers already experienced backlash last season with the sept rape scene, it takes a lot of stupidity to repeat the exercise and push the stakes even higher. So, we had to watch through Theon another pointless tourture porn. There is no justification for this.

I can go on and give many more examples, but I have to conclude that the show has proven to be sexist, anti-gay and bursting with stereotypes. It has become offensive. And what is more offensive is the fact that the producers are not even aware how offensive they are. The whole invented Missandei/Greyworm romance is, apart from being pointless from the perspective of the plot, totally racist and patronising. Plus, it has zero plot value. Gay stereotype Loras is a caricature, not a character. From the tourney scene in season 1 to the latest episode we had no character development.

Jaime Lannister had a lovely development arc until they returned him to KG. Now, we have no idea who that man is, what is he up to and what drives him. And so on.

GRRM has created a beautifully interwoven Persian carpet of arcs and plots that create a complex pattern with deep universal messages and emotions. He has written complex characters and consistently developed them. The show at this point resembles an industrial two coloured synthetic carpet full of cigarette burns and food stains after a whole night of an intensive poker game that ended in a fight. I wish that carpet is as exciting as the poker game I have just described.

And why did all this happen? Because HBO gave a free reign to rookies who felt their first success, it got into their heads, inflated their egos and greed and reduced the size of their brains accordingly. So, at this point, D&D resemble Mad King and Euron Greyjoy respectively. Only a good slap in the face from the critics and the audience can save this show from becoming an unredeemable rape of GRRM's masterpiece.

:agree: Precisely! :tantrum:

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The stupidity of the show writers is impossible to defend. First of all, they bought TV rights for a fantasy genre masterpiece and turned it into a mixture of soap opera and torture porn. That is like buying a painting by Leonardo and giving it to an art student instead of blanc canvas so that he can paint his first painting ever.

I blame huge egos and not enough talent paired with an enormous amount of greed and lots of focus group research by the HBO relevant department.

So, in order to explain my position, I will stick to the show and forget about the books for now.

- Tyrion told us the story of Tysha, his first wife, twice in the show. And that was a classic Chekov's gun. We had a story filed in our brains and writers just had to use it in an appropriate moment. When that moment came (Jaime releases Tyrion from prison), the story is never told. So, Tyrion has no motive to seek Tywin out. He has no motive to kill him. Or, to be more precise, he has the same motive ha had in season 1 episode 1. There was nothing to tip Tyrion over the edge. So, why was Tysha story introduced in the first place?

- Barristan Selmy crossed half of Essos to find Daenerys. His show value since he found her was to tell her a couple of tales about her father and brother that might have been told by anyone else. Then the character, whom Jaime described as "the painter who paints in red" and the best knight he has ever known, strolls down a city on a verge of mutiny without armour and gets killed like a novice. That is a waste of screen time, character, money and plot.

- Gendry was left rowing at some point in the show. No followup for a long time. Is he still rowing?

- Locke was sent to the Wall by the Boltons only to get killed by Bran inside Hodor. What was the purpose of that arc? What did the show achieve with it? Would anything have changed if that arc had not been there? Yes, there would be more screen time for things that actually matter.

- Brothel scenes are mostly totally unjustified by plots and exist solely to achieve some pre-set nudity quota per episode.

- Rape scenes in Crasters keep were so casual as if they were portraying some sport.

- The latest rape scene makes no dramaturgical sense. Boltons are keen to take control over the North. They are about to face Stannis's army and they are facing a silent mutiny and disapproval of all other northern lords. Sansa is their card to legalisation of their position. And Ramsey rapes her on their wedding night forcing Theon to watch. He has just thrown all his father's diplomatic work down the drain. So, what is the purpose of that scene? To show Ramsey is mad? We know he is mad. That has been established. To show he is stupid? Maybe. But, that has also been established. To shock the audience? After the RW, it would not be an easy task. On the other hand, the show established Sansa as a character who has grown and took her destiny into her own hands. How did they establish it? By showing us that she can lie effectively and with a plan. And by having Sansa change her appearance. The latter is a stupid method abandoned even in amateurish theatres, let alone expensive productions. However, they could not find any other method to demonstrate the change. Then they go back on their own arc and regress the same character to its season 2 part of the arc. The only conclusion therefore is that the rape scene in WF had been done for a sole purpose of shocking the audience in hope of pushing the ratings even higher. since the producers already experienced backlash last season with the sept rape scene, it takes a lot of stupidity to repeat the exercise and push the stakes even higher. So, we had to watch through Theon another pointless tourture porn. There is no justification for this.

I can go on and give many more examples, but I have to conclude that the show has proven to be sexist, anti-gay and bursting with stereotypes. It has become offensive. And what is more offensive is the fact that the producers are not even aware how offensive they are. The whole invented Missandei/Greyworm romance is, apart from being pointless from the perspective of the plot, totally racist and patronising. Plus, it has zero plot value. Gay stereotype Loras is a caricature, not a character. From the tourney scene in season 1 to the latest episode we had no character development.

Jaime Lannister had a lovely development arc until they returned him to KG. Now, we have no idea who that man is, what is he up to and what drives him. And so on.

GRRM has created a beautifully interwoven Persian carpet of arcs and plots that create a complex pattern with deep universal messages and emotions. He has written complex characters and consistently developed them. The show at this point resembles an industrial two coloured synthetic carpet full of cigarette burns and food stains after a whole night of an intensive poker game that ended in a fight. I wish that carpet is as exciting as the poker game I have just described.

And why did all this happen? Because HBO gave a free reign to rookies who felt their first success, it got into their heads, inflated their egos and greed and reduced the size of their brains accordingly. So, at this point, D&D resemble Mad King and Euron Greyjoy respectively. Only a good slap in the face from the critics and the audience can save this show from becoming an unredeemable rape of GRRM's masterpiece.

:bowdown: Couldn't agree more

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So no one else was bothered by how Jaqen kept smacking the shit out of Arya?

Yeah that bugged me. I dont know why the Kindly Man and the Waif are so much meaner in the show. (however, the Kindly Man did smack Arya around in the books. Its just when she went blind. She realizes it was him and calls him out on it.) Seeing someone with Jaqen's face smack her around like that is disconcerting for sure.

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Ugh really did not like like this episode at all. Dorne is a hot mess, and I loved how it was expanded on in the books. How can we even get to "fire and blood" without an Arianne or Quentin? What is the payoff for introducing this plot? The sand snakes are a huge disappointment- so boring and horribly acted.

I am not even going into the Winterfell stuff gah, HATE.

Tyron and Jorah were ok I guess, still like them together.

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Only a good slap in the face from the critics and the audience can save this show from becoming an unredeemable rape of GRRM's masterpiece.

I agree with everything you've said Modesty, except this last bit. Nothing can save the show now. It has become a farce and the antithesis of good storytelling. Even by television standards the writing is dreadful.

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