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[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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Why do I care if D&D like an actor? This is an adaptation, not their original work.

They are hired to put GRRM's work on the TV screen, not invent some inferior fan fiction. Any fool can do that. What we have been watching this season has nothing to do with the original work. As I said before, in adaptation, main characters' arcs can be shortened, but not altered. It has nothing to do with Ramsey. Sansa never met Ramsey in the books.

You know that HBO doesn't care. You also know D&D do care. Are you an insider or are you inventing as you go along?

Right. So says the Geneva convention on cinematic adaptations of novels.

What on earth are you talking about?

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Yes, it is a business. And in a serious TV or film production, rookies do not produce, write and direct. Ego maniacs do. And badly. The budget is massive. There is enough money to hire good writers who actually do not need to care for GRRM's work. They just need to adapt it to screen. Simple. They have the books and then they write additional dialogues, cut here and there, merge some side characters if necessary etc. That is what an adaptation is.

It certainly is not inventing things that are not in the books. Especially when it comes to main protagonists. I am sorry, but before entering into any discussion on this, one must remember this shit is advertised as an adaptation of GRRM's work. It's a false advertisement. Season 4 departed from adaptation. Season 5 is pure fan fiction. GRRM should sue them for breach of contract. He did not allow a use of his world so that sub-mediocre writers can invent their banal, illogical, pointless, racist, homophobic bullshit. He allowed an adaptation of his work.

Any discussion of this fan fiction should be restricted to warning that it is indeed a fan fiction and ultimate rubbish.

In the UK for example, there would have been an uproar had any of the British classics been butchered like this by a TV show. Americans, it seems, do not care when their best written works are turned into a mockery. Instead, some of them have the audacity to demonstrate their own ignorance about the meaning of the word adaptation by claiming that D&D moronic duo actually "improved" the original. I do pity American writers if that is their fan base.

Lots of things are advertised as an adaptation that far, far away from the material.

Regardless of quality should fans of Stokey Stackhouse Chronicles been able to Sue HBO? It was advertised in the very same manner. It was to be following very closely the source material over multiple seasons. It stopped after one season.

Being writers means they do not have control. Regardless of opinion if you think you adapted a the author stated to unadaptable for television would you want to have the control? Why would GRRM be part of project you can be replaced if their is a disagreement?

You knowing the minnds hearts, and souls of D&D is amazing. Still HBO does not care how sexist, racist, and homophobic bullshit you know it is. Any concern will come from a decrease in revenues and projected revenues. It will not be Sansa's Rape, Greyworm/Messandi, Barristan died in an alley, No coldhands, "Only Cat", Thenns cannibal and Alys Karstark, and etc.

Edited by TheKitttenGuard
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It's an artistic business, so it is more complicated than this. If you think a business should be conducted with no ethics, then I can reply that concentration camps were also business. Slave work in service of a war effort. Is this how you see the world?

OK, far be it from me to offer advice to strangers on the internet, but maybe you need to step off this forum for a tick and calm down a little.

I thought this thread might be becoming a race to the bottom in terms of posts becoming more and more hysterical, now I'm convinced of it. After the better part of 40 pages, we've seen it argued that D&D just wanted Sansa to get raped (planning it for years apparently), accusations of "fridging", several hundred words arguing Tommen is a rape victim and accusations that they aged Tommen just so they could have a sex scene with him and Mergery (a scene which does not actually exist).

You could have made the concentration camp argument, but you didn't. You only mentioned it. Still, if you think some kind of moral equivalence can be drawn between D&D/HBO editorial decisions regarding their adaptation of ASOIAF and concentration camps? I can't think of anything more vulgar and offensive.

I'm off.

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?
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Tommen was raped from modern standards. The whole reason statutory rape is a thing is because we decided that at certain ages, despite having sexual urges, a person's decision making skills and life experience is not such that they can consent. Whether I think this is a sensible stance to apply to westeros is irrelevant for what I'm explaining you, which is, why some say tommen was raped. He is being manipulated. He is immature and with a much older woman. This is the reason for the argument. No hysterics

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Tommen was raped from modern standards. The whole reason statutory rape is a thing is because we decided that at certain ages, despite having sexual urges, a person's decision making skills and life experience is not such that they can consent. Whether I think this is a sensible stance to apply to westeros is irrelevant for what I'm explaining you, which is, why some say tommen was raped. He is being manipulated. He is immature and with a much older woman. This is the reason for the argument. No hysterics

Who is 'we'? The age of consent varies all over the world. It's 12 in parts of Mexico, 14 in Spain etc Your bottom line position isn't even true of the modern world, let alone a fictional quasi medieval world like Westeros. You're through the looking glass.

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So.. those who are shocked by rape or bothered by it inside this series.. have you watched the whole series thus far? I know not all read the books, the show is tame compared to books.

I am not excusing rape by any means.. but it is part of the cuture, the time period, life and how things back back in this time and in this world. Rape has also happened several times so far in the show and in the books... you shouldn't be shocked by it anymore just because it happens to a much loved character.

In reality, Sansa really had it easy when she was married off to Tyrion. By all laws of marriage and right in this time and culture, he had every right to bed her down whether she was abiding or not. Because he is a gentleman and felt bad for her (as well as in love with a Prostitute), he told her she didn't have to and he wouldn't touch her until or unless she wanted to. 99.9% of men in this world (SOIAF world) would not do this. Thing is, since she never got down with Tyrion... she is free game and whoever beds her down would lend credibility in their favor and power over the North. Ramsey did force himself on her, because he wanted to.. but also he had a witness to prove that she has consumated the houses.

I am calling this rape because of how it was done... but ultimately she had consented to the actual act itself (not the way in how it was done) because she knew that it was her role, her duty, her part to play for the goals she was planning in her head. There is no way did she think that he would be anotehr Tyrion and say no to the marriage bed.. she knew what was coming.. she probably didn't expect the brutality... But the readers and viewers did because we know Ramsey.

Sansa's plot was not the only interesting one, so many things were carefully put on the chess board for the next move. It takes time to build up interest in characters, having viewers root for them because they know their story and feel their pain, it takes time to show different sides of the characters.

Dorne has a vital role because they are a land and kingdom that has hated the Lannisters, and may have the power to form alliances with others to bring them down in many ways.

At first, I was not happy that the writers took Jamie to Dorne instead of what the book dictated.. but this is better and it flows better for right now, it has purpose.

Regarding the High Sparrow, Marg, Loris, etc.... it just farther depicts how deceitful Cersei is and how she wants power... is jealous of anyone who may gain favor over her with her son or others... and that she will stop at nothing. She is one of the best protagonists in this series who we all love to hate. All of us, I am sure, were all thinking that Tommen needed to grow some balls and get his wife and be a real king. Joffrey was a sick teenager....but he would have had him beheaded immediately. Tommen is gentler.. has potential to be a leader of the people.. but the problem is he is a boy who has been sheltered and has no balls. Just read the last page... people.. he was not raped. Please stop trying to compare this age, this time, this land to modern day times and laws. A boy becomes a man sexually just about anytime when married and his wife could be way older...Tommen was not saying no.. he is infatuated. Before crying rape, please remember difference in time periods, people's rights, laws, and again, that this is amazing fiction.

Littlefinger...I think his end game is to be Warden with Sansa and have her for himself. However, he knows that Cersei wants her dead.... how to finnagle this so that Sansa will be his and he has leadership as well?

Arya... I love her path to becoming a faceless man...but in the show it is dragging a bit.

All in all.. the writers are paying great gomage to GRRM and his characters.

Edited by Lady Godiva
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Dorne story line is horrible stuff. Why did the sand snakes feel the need to try and cover their faces? At home. In the daylight. At the water gardens FFS! Not to mention a completely ridiculous plan on theirs, Jamie and Bronns part. It was like a scene from Police Squad!

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And give them an heir so they can kill her, too. To force her into a rape plot is bad enough, but to make it seem like her choice, that's victim blaming, but they won't even call her a victim, because it's empowering...

She made the choice to marry. That's not the same as choosing to be raped, and anyone who says it is does her character far more of a disservice that the producers and writers. Moreover, they do a great disservice to every woman who lives, or lived, in a society where marital rape is not, or was not, considered a problem, or even conceived of as something that could exist. If your problem with the narrative is that Sansa chose to be married, and therefore chose to be raped, it is not the writers who are victim blaming, it is you, as you are asserting that every woman who has been coerced into a marriage chose to be raped. A dispicable position to take, at best.

The other most common problems I've seen cited are that it i) undoes (or simply ignores) her growth as a character and therefore ii) is indicative of lazy, inconsistent writing not befitting of quality drama.

i) This argument is my reason for making a first post as I find it particularly offensive. This is because I am very close to someone who has been raped twice, years apart, by different men, whilst living in different countries. To suggest that the second experience of sexual violence somehow undermines all of her life experiences and personal growth between the two is repugnant. It is entirely possible for someone to grow and be brought low again. This doesn't make them a pernenial victim; it doesn't prevent them from being a strong person; and it certainly doesn't mean the haven't grown between. It makes them a person who has been a victim of multiple horrible expriences separated by time.

ii) Obviously I'd argue that i) is untrue and as such ii) is irrelevant. But lets treat it as valid. If so, we have to essentially throw away enormous swathes of literature near-universally lauded as classics as many are built entirely around characters who grow as a result of their experiences only to make the exact same errors or fall victim to similar turns of events, leading to disaster, or to different phases, or types, of growth. It is the basis for pretty much all heroic cycles in Greek myth; of the Saul and David arc in the Books of Samuel; the Mayor of Casterbridge; most of Shakespeare's tragedies; and so on.

Speaking of classics:

In the UK for example, there would have been an uproar had any of the British classics been butchered like this by a TV show.

Err... Sherlock, brought forward by centuries and bearing only a passing resemblance to the short stories and serials, has been embraced by huge UK audiences. Likewise the DiCaprio Romeo and Juliet was a roaring success. British audiences in fact have a tendency towards new things being done with 'classics'. It's why reimaginings of Shakespeare have dominated theatres for centuries.

Edited by nfe
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