Brian told us Everything we need to know

[ummester]

Sure.

But it also cannot be said that he agrees with and endorses everything that has been done. His recent comments are not him being 'more reasonable than the fandom' at all. He is trying to protect his work by making a clear separation between it and the other production he has no say in.

Well, yes and no - he may not endorse all of the changes but he compares it to Gone With the Wind, which is a well respected book and adaptation. He could find a better comparison if he was trying to infer that the adaptation is a lesser overall quality than the source.

And, I'm sure he could have a say in the show if he wanted to. Wasn't it his choice to stand down from writing episodes and concentrate on the novels this season? I think D&D and HBO would be perfectly happy to have him advise and write for them, why wouldn't they? It would add credibility to this season as per prior seasons.

Unless, of course, GRRM and HBO have had a falling out and we just don't know about it yet. But there is no evidence to suggest this.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

And, I'm sure he could have a say in the show if he wanted to. Wasn't it his choice to stand down from writing episodes and concentrate on the novels this season? I think D&D and HBO would be perfectly happy to have him advise and write for them, why wouldn't they? It would add credibility to this season as per prior seasons.

There appears to be a widespread misconception about how much say GRRM had as an episode writer.

Episode Writer =/= Writer.

The Writers write the show with the assistance of the rest of the writing team. This is then handed to the episode writer to make it into something the Director can use. It has a significant portion of being a technical role rather than a purely creative role. Had GRRM written Episode 6 he would have still been obliged to have the Sansa scene pan out pretty much as it appeared, regardless of whether he agreed or not.

His input in the overall creation effectively ends with him giving them the broad outlines of the character arcs as he did many years ago.

[chambraigne]

A wheelbarrow full of cash can do that... especially given some of his previous comments. To whit:

and

Now the thing is, people are citing his most recent comments as evidence he is supporting the change. He isn't supporting it and he isn't denouncing it. He is drawing a line in the sand to make a clear definition of difference between his work and theirs. He is trying to protect his work from the criticism of the show and the splashover garnered by people claiming that he is closely involved with the production. Simple fact is, he does not have any decision-making power on the show. It is not his work. He sold it.

That's a bit of a disingenuous use of those quotes, considering GRRM's main argument against those who would "abuse the citizens of Westeros" was that they would profit from them without his consent. His anti-fan-fiction position was an argument about intellectual property, not moral choices about his characters. He sold the rights to D&D because he trusted them.

[Valetudo]

That's a bit of a disingenuous use of those quotes, considering GRRM's main argument against those who would "abuse the citizens of Westeros" was that they would profit from them without his consent. His anti-fan-fiction position was an argument about intellectual property, not moral choices about his characters. He sold the rights to D&D because he trusted them.

He trusted them 8 years ago when he sold them the rights. They certainly didn't tell him at the time that they were planning to change things so much.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

He sold the rights to D&D because he trusted them.

That does not mean he agrees with everything they have changed and does not mean people should just accept the changes because GRRM has been working with them, which is the argument being made against those who don't like the changes.

The very post I was responding to attempted to assert that those who objected to some of the changes were being 'unreasonable' and citing GRRM's quote as being entirely on board with the changes (which they aren't - they are clearly neutral).

Given that I made reference to him accepting payment in my post is for me sufficient to demonstrate the use of those quotes was not being disingenuous. He is amenable to raping his characters if a sufficient recompense has been made. This does not mean he agrees with it (and anyone who doesn't is 'unreasonable').

[ummester]

His input in the overall creation effectively ends with him giving them the broad outlines of the character arcs as he did many years ago.

So whose does? D&Ds? Lena Heady's? Peter Dinklage? The HBO Execs? Who is really calling the shots for how the story unfolds between now and conclusion, given that the territory is largely uncharted?

And who has the right to make those calls, now that GoTs has become a phenomenon above what ASoIaF would have become without it. Surely the actors have a right to weigh in on how their characters develop? Surely D&D have a right to steer the story, as they invented the concept of adapting it for TV? Surely the execs and investors have a right to weigh in on how their money is spent? And surely, GRRM still has some kind of right to either weigh in or say that the show is not taking the best path to his conclusion, if that is what he feels?

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

Absolutely. ADwD was disappointing to say the least. I thinking focusing on Dorne instead of the Ironborn was a mistake. But imagine the outrage about all the rape and pillage if we were following Euron and Victarion around?

That is an excellent point

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

So whose does? D&Ds? Lena Heady's? Peter Dinklage? The HBO Execs? Who is really calling the shots for how the story unfolds between now and conclusion, given that the territory is largely uncharted?

And who has the right to make those calls, now that GoTs has become a phenomenon above what ASoIaF would have become without it. Surely the actors have a right to weigh in on how their characters develop? Surely D&D have a right to steer the story, as they invented the concept of adapting it for TV? Surely the execs and investors have a right to weigh in on how their money is spent? And surely, GRRM still has some kind of right to either weigh in or say that the show is not taking the best path to his conclusion, if that is what he feels?

So who does? D+D

"And surely, GRRM still has some kind of right to either weigh in or say that the show is not taking the best path to his conclusion, if that is what he feels?"

I didn't say he didn't have such a right. He can say or not say as he chooses. The quote provided was being used as evidence he was on board with it and anyone who wasn't is 'unreasonable'. It wasn't that at all. It was being neutral.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Those of you upset about the divergence of the books and show, consider Brienne's comments in E05 while she and Pod sit and watch Littlefinger and Sansa go through Moat Cailin.

Pod: How do we get through there?

Brienne: We don't. We go around.

Pod: It's miles out of the way. We'll lose sight of them.

Brienne: Doesn't matter. I know where they're going.

D&D are not following GRRM through the Moat Cailin of strict book adherence. They can't. The books are too complex, too fraught with the danger of becoming the Meereen of television while they explore every subplot and every minor character just to kill them off two weeks later. They're going around, and while they might lose sight of the books as they take their detour, it doesn't matter. They know where they're going.

And if you don't want to take their word for it, take GRRM's. If you consider him the authentic voice of the series, then take him at his word when he says it's tiresome to hear people constantly complaining about their divergence in his latest post, http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html.

I didn't actually see the part where he said it's tiresome to hear people complaining. Could you point that out for me, please?

[Hodor's Dragon]

Seriously? It completely changes the dynamic between Jaime and Tyrion because show Tyrion has no reason to hate him, but how on earth does it impact the decision to kill his father? He had eight billion reasons to hate his father regardless of whether Tysha was a whore or not.

Because he always had those same 8 billion reasons, and it was only Jaime telling him that story that pushed him over the edge. Why hadn't he killed Tywin for those 8 billion reasons long before?

[Hodor's Dragon]

Can you read?

Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.

David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.

GRRM is writing that they are trying to do the best job they can, as he is trying to do the best job he can. If he was displeased (and honest) he would write that he didn't think they were doing a good job with his complicated books.

Please. They are his business partners. He's a seasoned TV pro. A pro wouldn't talk shit about his partners, no matter how much they deserve it. What would be the point of petty complaints?

You know . . . he's presumably making money from the show . . . lots of it. You really think he's going to criticize it publicly every time something he disagrees with happens?.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I won't stoop to your level and say "can you read?" But I will ask if you have bothered to read the whole post. If you had, you would have noticed, "There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material"

Tag on the next 3 words: "by and large." Overall . . . on the average . . . he's absolutely correct. The first couple of seasons were slavishly faithful, as faithful as any adaption I have ever seen. Seasons 3 and 4 were more faithful than the average adaptation.

Season 5 is totally off the rails, brand new crap using the same characters. On the average, though - or "by and large" - it is still one of the most faithful TV shows you can find.

But the average is dropping like a rock.

[Valetudo]

I didn't actually see the part where he said it's tiresome to hear people complaining. Could you point that out for me, please?

Because he always had those same 8 billion reasons, and it was only Jaime telling him that story that pushed him over the edge. Why hadn't he killed Tywin for those 8 billion reasons long before?

Please. They are his business partners. He's a seasoned TV pro. A pro wouldn't talk shit about his partners, no matter how much they deserve it. What would be the point of petty complaints?

You know . . . he's presumably making money from the show . . . lots of it. You really think he's going to criticize it publicly every time something he disagrees with happens?.

Tag on the next 3 words: "by and large." Overall . . . on the average . . . he's absolutely correct. The first couple of seasons were slavishly faithful, as faithful as any adaption I have ever seen. Seasons 3 and 4 were more faithful than the average adaptation.

Season 5 is totally off the rails, brand new crap using the same characters. On the average, though - or "by and large" - it is still one of the most faithful TV shows you can find.

But the average is dropping like a rock.

Thanks for all of this. It's like you read my thoughts and wrote them better than I could!

PS: Love your new avatar. That necklace, lol

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Also, can someone please fix my phone's autocorrect in the title? That should read "Brienne", not Brian.

Nahhh that was good. I clicked on the title wondering who Brian is, and was pleasantly surprised. I thought it witty until you outed yourself.

[clawson24]

The show has already become the Meereen of television. Haven't you seen the show-only people complaining that nothing's happening this season?

While the ratings remain terrific and the water-cooler talk remains constant.

[ummester]

While the ratings remain terrific and the water-cooler talk remains constant.

And a single scene, that fans are all up in arms about, has generated more news hype than anything save Jamie and Cersie's coffin coupling last season.

Please. They are his business partners. He's a seasoned TV pro. A pro wouldn't talk shit about his partners, no matter how much they deserve it. What would be the point of petty complaints?

You know . . . he's presumably making money from the show . . . lots of it. You really think he's going to criticize it publicly every time something he disagrees with happens?.

So, he's made his choice re ASoIaF, according to your post, it's a financial endeavour for him above being a labour of love.

That said, I very much doubt GRRM receives ongoing royalties or anything from the GoTs franchise. It doesn't usually work that way, writers are generally paid an outright sum and then taken out of the profit loop - that's one of the points of a franchise like this, to ensure the money is channelled how HBO wants it. One of the few writers I've heard about that was able to get in on franchise royalties was JK Rowling, only because her series was such hot property to franchise and she played bidders against each other.

[Misnthropia]

He seems kinda salty in that post LOL

Agreed. People need to read between the lines. He doesnt say he is happy and his post is typical of his previous ones where he he likens the changes in the show to the butterfly effect.

His post is merely, stop emailing me. I have no control. Direct your anger to HBO.

He cant say he is unhappy. He cannot bite the hand that feeds. Whilst he may or may not get ongoing royalties. The connection between the book and the show remains. This is invaluable advertising for him and his novels.

His posts are totally neutral, suspiciously so. There are a lot of people out there using that blog post as justification for the show changes. That post is simply about directing the complaints to the correct departments because he has absolutely no say.

[JonisHenryTudor]

He trusted them 8 years ago when he sold them the rights. They certainly didn't tell him at the time that they were planning to change things so much.

I mean do we actually know this?

Even if he did not, Martin is not a fool (or he is), and since he constructed this to be "too big for tv" he must have known that major alterations would occur; especially from a Company that does not run lengthy series commonly seen on ABC/CBS/Fox...what is CSI:LV in season 35 now?

Agreed. People need to read between the lines. He doesnt say he is happy and his post is typical of his previous ones where he he likens the changes in the show to the butterfly effect.

His post is merely, stop emailing me. I have no control. Direct your anger to HBO.

He cant say he is unhappy. He cannot bite the hand that feeds. Whilst he may or may not get ongoing royalties. The connection between the book and the show remains. This is invaluable advertising for him and his novels.

His posts are totally neutral, suspiciously so. There are a lot of people out there using that blog post as justification for the show changes. That post is simply about directing the complaints to the correct departments because he has absolutely no say.

:agree:

[Crixus]

Just compare his excitement during season premieres in previous years to now, and it's cyrstal clear. He used to post about the show, share trailers, his views etc. Now there's absolute silence. Literally the only time he refers to the show is when getting flooded by emails from people upset at the way D&D have handled Sansa, for example.

To say he's happy seems shallow at best, and disingenuous at worst. IMO.

Count me among those who were/are perfectly fine with cuts (GTFO Ironborn!) and changes (Talisa at RW, Cat's talk about Jon falling ill as a kid, hell even Tyrion's condensed arc this season is good because it gets rid of pointless meandering and gets him to Mereen faster) AS LONG AS THEY MAKE SENSE. That's the crucial point and something show worshippers seem to completely miss.

Now, I realise opinions are subjective when it comes to 'sense', but only to a degree. Beyond that, it's obvious to everyone when shit just doesn't make sense. Sansa's marriage to and rape by Ramsay is exactly such a change. It's ludicrous, it serves nothing but the show's continued obsession with gore.

The actual Northern plot was about the North's continued loyalty to the Starks and to Ned, the lack of trust between the Boltons, Freys and Northern lords and the eventual battle. Instead, the show focuses on Sansa being married to a nutter and raped. There are NO FREYS except Walda. I mean, I find that laughable. The entire audience knows the Boltons AND the Freys murdered Robb and Cat. They know and loathe Walder, and they know he has a thousand kids. Including the Freys and serving some much needed comeuppance would have been a gazillion times more satisfying than Sansa's rape. For show-only audiences as well, considering the 'devastating' impact of the RW on them. I mean, this shit is obvious.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I mean do we actually know this?

Not explicitly, but given that in interviews from Season 1, D+D specifically make reference to the girl sitting beside Sansa being Jayne ad post Season 2 comments about 'The Arya and Tywin scenes were so well received that we now have confidence to make more changes' it is clear that what they were looking to do prior to starting is different to their intentions now.