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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v. 4

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The A+J = T theory puts forth the claim that Tyrion Lannister is the illegitimate son of Aerys II Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

Note: Individually, none of these clues prove that Tyrion's biological father is Aerys. However, when taken together, these clues provide a strong argument in favor of the theory.

Personal Note: I want to express my thanks to Consigliere who lived up to his name fabulously by editing, reformatting and enhancing my prior OP in the manner presented below (which is a tremendous improvement both in terms of the substance and presentation of the OP).

Clues in favor of A+J = T:

- Pale blond hair (sounds closer to Targ color than Lannister color) with patches of black hair (the Black hair could be from Betha Blackwood, the grandmother of Aerys, which might be even more compelling evidence given that there is no known source of black hair on the Lannister side).

- Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author).

- Fascination with fire (pretended it was dragonfire) and dragons / dreamed of dragons / asked his uncle for a dragon as a gift / admired the dragon skull (while possibly others had some of these traits, readers hear few if any other examples).

- Barristan admits to Dany that Aerys lusted after Joanna, is the woman he would have wanted to marry and took inappropriate liberties during the bedding ceremony at her wedding (not an indication of sex at that time—just that Aerys wanted Joanna).

- Tywin refuses to let Tyrion inherit CR even though Jaime cannot inherit as a member of the King’s Guard and tells Tyrion, “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine” (perhaps actually a confession that Tywin suspects that Tyrion might not be Tywin’s true-born son or perhaps really just a clue from the author).

- Tywin on deathbed telling Tyrion, “You are no son of mine” (either a literal confession or a clue provided by the author).

- Born deformed and described to have had a tail (similar to certain still-born Targaryens, perhaps including Rhaego).

- References to Tyrion having cast the shadow of a king.

- Moqorro’s vision—“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.” (Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons).

- Uses the alias of Hugor Hill (Hugor of the Hill was the name of the first king of the Andals and Hill are bastards from the Westerlands—if Aerys were known to be Tyrion’s father, Tyrion would be Tyrion Hill—and use of the name Hugor Hill could be interpreted to mean that Tyrion is a "royal bastard").

- Tells Jon, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.” (Perhaps a message from the author that this dwarf really is a bastard).

- Tells Jon, “Most of my kin are bastards,” … “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” (Perhaps a hint from the author that Tyrion and Jon are kin).

- Dreams he has two heads and kills Lannisters, while one head is laughing and one is crying (is the laughing head Targ and the crying head Lannister?).

- Joanna was rumored to have had an affair with Aerys and was dismissed from court by Rhaella because Aerys was making Joanna a whore (suggesting that an affair occurred between Joanna and Aerys while Aerys and Rhaella were married and might have continued even after Joanna married Tywin).

- Joanna visited KL in 272 AC for the Anniversary Tourney and Aerys made a humiliating remark about her breasts. Tywin attempted to resign the next day, and Aerys refused to accept the resignation (this timeline makes the birth of Tyrion in 273 AC consistent with Aerys as the biological father, and Tywin’s desire to resign could be more easily explained as a reaction to an insult regarding her breasts).

- Aerys seems to lose respect for Tywin after the period of time during which Aerys would have impregnated Joanna with Tyrion.

- The fifth book is titled A Dance with Dragons. However the book is not really focused much on the actual dragons or a battle between Targs or Targ descendants (as the Dance OF Dragons was). So why the title? Had GRRM simply decided that because he had picked the title years ago when he thought different material would be covered in that book he nevertheless kept the title? No. The better theory is that the title is a clue. Book 4 (A Feast for Crows) focused on most all of the characters other than Dany, Jon and Tyrion (who are essentially absent from that book) but A Dance with Dragons primarily focuses on these three characters. So the title of book 5 could be an additional clue pointing towards Tyrion being a dragon.

Similarities to Bloodraven, a Great Bastard:

  1. Distinct marking (mismatched eyes / huge red birthmark).
  2. Mutilation in defense of royals (cut nose / missing eye).
  3. Capable rulers but hated nonetheless.
  4. Kinslayers.

Similarities amongst Tyrion, Jon (assuming R+L=J) and Dany:

  1. Mothers died as a result of their births.
  2. Fathers / presumed fathers (Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin and Ned) killed.
  3. Lived in the shadow of older brothers.
  4. Outcasts.
  5. Unexpectedly rose to leadership roles.
  6. Lovers died arguably by their own hand (Shae / Ygritte / Drogo).
  7. Attempted assassinations.
  8. Third child of one of his or her parents (Joanna / Rhaegar / Rhaella).
  9. Each killed someone in a position of power (Tywin / Janos / Kraznys).
  10. Each has been betrayed (Shae / Bowen / MMD).
  11. Each used the help of "raiding" warrior tribes in battle (Mountain Clan / Wildings / Dothraki)

Frequently Asked Questions / Counter Arguments:



1. Would the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion be undermined?

This is entirely subjective. Some readers will consider the relationship ruined and others enhanced by finding out that Tywin rightfully suspected that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Assuming the author was planning such a development in the narrative, the author had sufficient leeway to write the relationship as he did, particularly given that any reveal of Tyrion’s birth father will occur only after Tywin is dead. GRRM might not consider a revelation after Tywin’s death to have any real effect on the import their interactions (or might even consider them more interesting in light of the revelation).

2. If Aerys raped Joanna, wouldn’t she have taken moon tea instead of carrying the pregnancy to term?

The evidence is somewhat ambiguous whether Joanna went to Aerys willingly, so the encounter might not have been rape. Even if Aerys raped Joanna, Joanna might have had her own reasons to carry the fetus to term (we have been told little about Joanna or her personality or values). Further, moon tea might not be 100% effective, so she might have taken moon tea, which failed. Other forms of terminating a pregnancy in Westeros might require more extreme measure that Joanna either might not have been able to obtain or might not have wanted to take the risks involved. In addition, Joanna might have thought it was most likely Tywin’s child and did not want to terminate the pregnancy under these circumstances. Bottom line, we don’t know enough about Joanna or the circumstances of the pregnancy to conclude that Joanna definitely would have terminated the pregnancy.

3. Genna says to Jaime, “I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.” Does this imply that Tyrion is Tywin's biological son?

Not necessarily. Genna was talking personality and not necessarily inherited traits. Tyrion wanted Tywin’s approval and thus would try to be like Tywin. Tywin’s refusal to speak to his sister for one-half a year indicates that Tywin might have been upset because he was reminded that the son most like himself was the one that might not even really be Tywin’s biological son.

4. Tommen’s hair also is pale blond, and he certainly is 100% Lannister.

As he grew older, Tommen’s hair became golden blond, while Tyrion’s hair remained pale blond as an adult.

5. Euron has mismatched eyes as well. Does this make him a secret Targ?

No. There is no evidence to suggest that Euron was born with mismatched eyes. There are several reasons why a more likely explanation is that his condition is a hyphema rather than a genetic condition. [Credit to Corbon]

- A hyphema is effectively a bruise on the eye. It usually comes from a blow to the eye causing bleeding. If it does not clear up the blood can thicken and turn black and damage to vision can be permanent. That fits everything we know about Euron.

- If Euron sustained an eye injury causing a hyphema during his early career, that would have happened before Theon's birth and as far as Theon is concerned it would have 'always been like that'

- His nickname of "crows eye'. His other eye is blue, and crows eyes change from a light blue/grey to a red/black colour as they mature, which suggests perhaps that Euron's eye changed colour around the time he reached maturity.

- His sigil, which is a red eye with a black pupil. That suggests his patched eye might be dark red, or once have been red rather than black, as Theon recalls.

- His eye patch. The patch suggests that the eye does not have good sight, or else he would lose much by covering it most of the time.

- His lifestyle. Trauma injuries seem rather fitting amongst the Ironborn, especially the most adventurous of them.

6. GRRM inserted these “clues” intentionally to serve as red herrings.

A typical definition of red herring is “something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.” Usually, such a misleading or distracting clue is intended to prevent the actual solution to a mystery from being too obvious to the readers (classically, for example, by introducing multiple suspects in a murder to keep the identity of the real murderer from being discovered too easily). Further, a red herring often is explicitly stated as a potential theory by a character. If A+J=T is a red herring, the true “mystery” from which the theory serves as a distraction is unclear. Certainly, no other mystery that has been explicitly introduced in the series is obscured by the introduction of these clues regarding A+J=T. In addition, no character explicitly contemplates that Aerys might be the biological father to Tyrion. Thus, the clues for A+J=T do not satisfy any of these criteria for a typical red herring.

7. Tywin would not give Tyrion a classic Lannister name if there were doubt as to paternity.

Tyrion probably is named after Tyrion the Tormentor, a Lannister king who enjoyed making women bleed. Tywin might have found the reference irresistible given the nature of Joanna’s death (which likely involved quite a bit of blood after Tyrion’s birth).

8. What about the SSM stating that Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned; suggesting that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father?

This analysis reads too much into an SSM. It is not possible to know for sure what was going through GRRM’s mind when answering the question. This sentence was not part of a carefully crafted piece of literature but a quick written answer to questions (notice the grammatical error, using “like” rather than “likely” shows that it was likely written quickly). R+L=J is a more widely circulated theory than A+J=T, so GRRM might have thought the need to refer to Ned by name for clarity sake, but did not think the same care was needed for the reference to Tywin. Bottom line, the SSM never explicitly states that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father, just references Tywin as Tyrion’s father, which Tywin was regardless of the identity of Tyrion’s birth father. Because GRRM is careful to refer to Ned as “Ned” rather than “Jon’s father” does not guarantee that GRRM would take the same care with Tywin, particularly if GRRM wanted the mystery of A+J=T to remain hidden to those readers who uncovered R+L=J.

Additional Analysis:

Links to Previous Threads:

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Please use this thread rather than the original v. 4 as this thread allows users to see the entire updated OP in this thread (rather than having to go back to v. 3). The OP for the original OP has agreed to ask for that thread to be locked.



The discussion ended with the issue of why Joanna would keep the baby if Aerys was the father.


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Please use this thread rather than the original v. 4 as this thread allows users to see the entire updated OP in this thread (rather than having to go back to v. 3). The OP for the original OP has agreed to ask for that thread to be locked.

okey dokey

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Copy pasting my post that happend just as this thread was posted:



Suzanna Stormborn, on 18 May 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:snapback.png




There is no way to know anything Joanna has ever thought. I agree that a little bit more info on her would help or break this theory. But alas there is none. I seriously doubt that her 'wanting' to sleep with him or not had very little do with the sex happening. I think this is a clear indication of Aerys being childish and jealous, he definitely had feeling for Joanna, possibly even loved her, definitely couldnt stand the golden twins that her and Tywin had just had. And he wanted to knock Twyin down any way that he could. Plus he was drunk, he could have easily ordered her to his bed chamber that night, then Tywin tried to resign the next morning, makes sense right? We have established that many slights to Tywin had never made him resign previously even though some of them were far more severe than a drunken jape at some breasts. For instance Tywin did not stick up for the head of his Hand's Guard when Aerys went to rip out his tongue. Tywin never spoke out or retaliated in anyway, this does not strike me as a man who resign over something so meaningless as drunken flirting, however if Aerys did call Joanna to his bed that night, then THAT would be a big enough reason for TYwin to resign the next day.




Yet somehow having Aerys bang his wife is a small enough insult for Tywin to bow down his head and say "ok" when Aerys refuses to let him resign.


Anyway, why would she come to his bed if he just humiliated her in front of the entire court?


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Copy pasting my post that happend just as this thread was posted:

Suzanna Stormborn, on 18 May 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:snapback.png

Yet somehow having Aerys bang his wife is a small enough insult for Tywin to bow down his head and say "ok" when Aerys refuses to let him resign.

Anyway, why would she come to his bed if he just humiliated her in front of the entire court?

I think that merely insulting Joanna's breasts are not really enough to justify the attempted resignation. Sex with Joanna is -- but when the King says "no" to resigning, Tywin is pretty much stuck. It was different when he resigned after Jaime was made KG -- Aerys was done with Tywin and presumably did not mind the resignation at that point.

As to why she would come to his bed -- we don't know that she went willingly. If she did, it would be based on a long history and even though Aerys humiliated Joanna (or at least Yandel reported that she was humiliated -- how would Yandel really know), her attraction to Aerys might be stronger than we think. I tend to suspect that she did not go willingly but that Aerys send guards to bring her to his bedchamber. She really had no way to refuse to go with them. Once she was there, she knew what the king expected and would have given it to him -- willingly or unwillingly.

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Gibzit--



Jon Arryn had 4 of the Territories willing to go to war because what he asked put the Stark and Baratheon lines at risk and through marriage and other association the Arryns and Tullys also supported the rebellion -- and then others joined later.



But Tywin could not mount such an opposition to Aerys under the circumstances. So following orders was his only realistic choice.


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Gibzit--

Jon Arryn had 4 of the Territories willing to go to war because what he asked put the Stark and Baratheon lines at risk and through marriage and other association the Arryns and Tullys also supported the rebellion -- and then others joined later.

But Tywin could not mount such an opposition to Aerys under the circumstances. So following orders was his only realistic choice.

At this point Tywin still had unmarried siblings (Gerion and Tygett are both still alive), he could arrange alliances and he had a lot of influence in KL, if he really wanted to defy Aerys he could do it better than most.

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At this point Tywin still had unmarried siblings (Gerion and Tygett are both still alive), he could arrange alliances and he had a lot of influence in KL, if he really wanted to defy Aerys he could do it better than most.

Better than most -- perhaps -- but not with any degree of certainty. Why would other Houses join his quest? Tywin would not have even wanted anyone to know his humiliation that Joanna had sex with Aerys. So what would be the reason for the rebellion? But even if Tywin was willing to reveal the reason, this issue really is personal to Aerys and Tywin? Why would other Houses risk war to get in the middle of a personal dispute that affected no one else?

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It is one thing defying your king if you are safe in your castle in your own lands, and another to defy the king in the king's presence. Had Tywin tried to argue against Aerys not accepting his resignation he could very easily argued himself into a black cell.



Even Ned does not dare rejecting Robert's offer to make him Hand - he knows that Robert did not travel to Winterfell to hear his old friend reject him. And Catelyn is right that the Starks could suffer from such a rejection as Robert would have been very receptive of anyone whispering into his ear that Lord Stark was disloyal, had a secret agenda, etc.



Also note that Tywin did not really resign after the Jaime affair. He feigned an illness and asked whether the king would allow him to resign. Tywin did not publicly (or half-publicly, at the Small Council, like Ned did) threw the chain of office at Aerys' feet - had he done that, mad Aerys most likely would have burned him.



Tywin was also not a very well-liked man. As a successful Hand he had rivals at court, and was risen beyond his fellow (great) lords as a successful vice king. Nobody comes to the help of such people if they fall from grace.


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Especially since it was also known to pretty much everyone that Aerys had Joanna Lannister first. If Tywin was willing to take the leftovers of the king he can't really complain that the king's takes her back from time to time...


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@RT,



I read your post in the last thread and no worries. I love discussing this stuff, we are cool, it's fine to have a disagreement on one thread and be fine on the others :) I am just excited for the day when we win you over :drunk:






:) :cheers:


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Do you think it would be possible for Tyrion to keep the Lannister last name if him being Aerys's son becomes known? I think circumstances where false paternity is confirmed hardly ever happens, so there might not be people saying he should lose his last name because it is so unexpected. And I guess he might be legimized as Lannister as Joanna's son but I think legimization from mothers side probably has never happened.

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Do you think it would be possible for Tyrion to keep the Lannister last name if him being Aerys's son becomes known? I think circumstances where false paternity is confirmed hardly ever happens, so there might not be people saying he should lose his last name because it is so unexpected. And I guess he might be legimized as Lannister as Joanna's son but I think legimization from mothers side probably has never happened.

I have never really thought about this question. I think it depends greatly on what happens in the next two books -- with respect to Cersei and Jaime -- as well, of course, as with Tyrion. My suspicion is that none of the three of them survives to the very end and so the question will become moot. If, however, Cersei and Jaime are gone and someone friendly to Tyrion becomes king/queen (e.g., Jon or Dany), then legitimization might be possible to make Tyrion Lord of CR -- if Tyrion even still wants to be considered a Lannister rather than a Targ. Of course, another possibility is that GRRM simply never addresses this issue directly and we never really know.

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One has to realize that the purpose behind Tyrion's paternity as far a the plot is concerned is different to the purpose behind Jon's.



Jon is intended to be the Prince that was Promised. It is necessary that his paternity becomes known and accepted by the Realm. In contrast, Tyrion is intended to be a Great Bastard born of Rape. No one need ever know his true paternity, other than himself and maybe Daenerys and Jon.



It is more important for him to know it, and for the dragons to know it, than for the Realm to know it, because his purpose is not to become King. Instead, he will likely end up as a very competent Hand, Dragonrider, and eventual Lord of Casterly Rock, with no one beyond the inner circle the wiser about his true paternity. Other than some rumours which cannot be proven to the extent of robbing him of Casterly Rock.


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I think that merely insulting Joanna's breasts are not really enough to justify the attempted resignation. Sex with Joanna is -- but when the King says "no" to resigning, Tywin is pretty much stuck. It was different when he resigned after Jaime was made KG -- Aerys was done with Tywin and presumably did not mind the resignation at that point.

As to why she would come to his bed -- we don't know that she went willingly. If she did, it would be based on a long history and even though Aerys humiliated Joanna (or at least Yandel reported that she was humiliated -- how would Yandel really know), her attraction to Aerys might be stronger than we think. I tend to suspect that she did not go willingly but that Aerys send guards to bring her to his bedchamber. She really had no way to refuse to go with them. Once she was there, she knew what the king expected and would have given it to him -- willingly or unwillingly.

I agree that the way Yandel transcribed the events seems more like rumors of what happened, than an eye-witness account. I think it's more likely that 'something sexual' happened the night of the party, possibly a comment in public, followed by sex later. What Yandel reported is just one version of what happened.

It is one thing defying your king if you are safe in your castle in your own lands, and another to defy the king in the king's presence. Had Tywin tried to argue against Aerys not accepting his resignation he could very easily argued himself into a black cell.

Even Ned does not dare rejecting Robert's offer to make him Hand - he knows that Robert did not travel to Winterfell to hear his old friend reject him. And Catelyn is right that the Starks could suffer from such a rejection as Robert would have been very receptive of anyone whispering into his ear that Lord Stark was disloyal, had a secret agenda, etc.

Also note that Tywin did not really resign after the Jaime affair. He feigned an illness and asked whether the king would allow him to resign. Tywin did not publicly (or half-publicly, at the Small Council, like Ned did) threw the chain of office at Aerys' feet - had he done that, mad Aerys most likely would have burned him.

Tywin was also not a very well-liked man. As a successful Hand he had rivals at court, and was risen beyond his fellow (great) lords as a successful vice king. Nobody comes to the help of such people if they fall from grace.

PLUS..... We all know Tywin is more concerned about the look of things than anything else. The more he fights Joanna being taken to the kings bedroom, or the more he fights Aerys about resigning = more people knowing about it. Which is clearly the most important thing to Tywin. So if he just shuts up and lets it happen and does not argue with the king then the affair is kept a secret and the great Lannister name is not dragged through the mud. If he raises an army against Aerys, then Westeros discusses him being a cuckold for all of eternity.

One has to realize that the purpose behind Tyrion's paternity as far a the plot is concerned is different to the purpose behind Jon's.

Jon is intended to be the Prince that was Promised. It is necessary that his paternity becomes known and accepted by the Realm. In contrast, Tyrion is intended to be a Great Bastard born of Rape. No one need ever know his true paternity, other than himself and maybe Daenerys and Jon.

It is more important for him to know it, and for the dragons to know it, than for the Realm to know it, because his purpose is not to become King. Instead, he will likely end up as a very competent Hand, Dragonrider, and eventual Lord of Casterly Rock, with no one beyond the inner circle the wiser about his true paternity. Other than some rumours which cannot be proven to the extent of robbing him of Casterly Rock.

I completely agree!!! Wonderful post :drool:

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Actually, I could see Tyrion become serious pretender to the throne. Dragons are dragons, whether they are red or black - with a dragon, Tyrion may not even be legitimized as Aerys' son (say, by Dany or Barristan in her name), he could simply claim this is the case and people will buy and accept it because he is a dragonrider now.



As to Jon Snow:



If we imagine for a second that he is the promised prince (which I don't think he is) then it is still not necessary for the plot that it become widely known or universally accepted. Especially if 'hero/saviour Jon' does the heroic thing and sacrifices himself for the greater good/his people without ever being recognized or as a Targaryen prince/king.



There may be some plot lines which require Jon to perhaps make use of his Targaryen ancestry magics, but he may be able to do this without ever knowing why he can do it. For instance, if it would turn out that First Men/Children greenseer can't skinchange dragons, but he can due to his Targaryen blood then he might simply think he is a very powerful skinchanger.


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LV--



GRRM has already told everyone that Jon will find out his true parentage. So the notion that he will perform "special" actions without knowing how he can do them seems unlikely. Once he finds out he is really a Targaryen -- which GRRM's statement virtually guarantees that he will (assuming RLJ is correct), then Jon will understand that any special powers associated with Dragons would be from Rhaegar (or from the combination of Stark/Targ blood).



As to your promised prince comment, Jon almost certainly is the promised prince. We have Lyanna' statement -- promise me, Ned. We have Rhaegar stating that the promised prince has the Song of Ice and Fire -- and Jon is the combination of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). And the other likely alternative -- Dany -- is specifically theorized by Aemon to be the promised prince, which screams red herring.



But I agree that Jon could come to the attention of a GC as a potential King based primarily on his heroics in the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. Nevertheless, being the legit son of Rhaegar likely would be relevant in making Jon an acceptable choice to Lords who would be reluctant to crown the bastard son of Ned Stark. I know your views on the polygamy issue -- but it does not matter how some people view polygamy -- what the lords would need is a "fig leaf" to argue that Jon is not a bastard -- and a polygamous marriage would provide that cover. Even if others disagree with the view that the marriage is valid, it does not matter -- the supporters simply need to have an argument and this argument, if Jon becomes king, will become the officially accepted view of Westeros.


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