A+J=T v. 4

[Jô Maltese]

Soon someone is going to suggest Tyrion is Rhaegar's son and not Tywin's... :cool4:

[UnmaskedLurker]

How do you make these little guys appear? I feel like such a noob (well I am a noob).

Loving this thread, guys, thanks for all your knowledge.

When you are typing your post, a menu of options appears above the portion you are writing in. One of the buttons on that menu is a smiley face that looks like this -- :). Click on Mr. Smiley and you get a bunch of emoticons to select -- and an arrow to click on for additional emoticons.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

How do you make these little guys appear? I feel like such a noob (well I am a noob).

Loving this thread, guys, thanks for all your knowledge.

yeah click on the smiley face in the 'edit' box above the body of the post, and a whole list of emoji's will come up.

Soon someone is going to suggest Tyrion is Rhaegar's son and not Tywin's... :cool4:

Oh I have been holding it in forever that Tyrion and not Jon will be King on the IT at the end lol, and married to Dany. (I mean not really, but that's more valid of an idea than something like Rhaegar = Mance or the Lemonati) He is the only living son of the last Targrayen King after all.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It means, "Dude, I'm not headed in that direction, but you'll have to read the rest of the tale to find out," and then off-mike, "Warging a dragon... what a cockamamie theory! Doesn't he realize that if I was going to have Bran skinchange into a dragon I would have foreshadowed that, or at least given them an instance of it in the past? Don't these clowns get what I wrote about the arms of House Toland? Jeez Louise..."

Wait i am having a hard time following your sarcasm here lol.

What are you saying about House Toland's sigil?

It's a dragon biting it's own tail correct?

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

Oh I have been holding it in forever that Tyrion and not Jon will be King on the IT at the end lol, and married to Dany. (I mean not really, but that's more valid of an idea than something like Rhaegar = Mance or the Lemonati)

Promise me Tywin, promise me! :drunk:

[Lost Melnibonean]

Wait i am having a hard time following your sarcasm here lol.

What are you saying about House Toland's sigil?

It's a dragon biting it's own tail correct?

Most observers suggest that it's a simple homage to The Wheel of Time, but it's much more... oh, ever so much more... oh, muchly much-much more (I read a lot of Dr. Seuss)...

". . . Are you aware that the Golden Company has broken its contract with Myr?"

"Sellswords break their contracts all the time."

"Not the Golden Company. Our word is good as gold has been their boast since the days of Bittersteel. Myr is on the point of war with Lys and Tyrosh. Why break a contract that offered them the prospect of good wages and good plunder?"

"Perhaps Lys offered them better wages. Or Tyrosh."

"No, she said. I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It's home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions." She took Ser Arys by the hand, and wove her fingers through his own. "Have you ever seen the arms of House Toland of Ghost Hill?"

He had to think a moment. "A dragon eating its own tail?"

"The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again." Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn. He whispers in my brother's ear that he should rule after my father, that it is not right for men to kneel to women . . . that Arianne especially is unfit to rule, being the willful wanton that she is." She tossed her hair defiantly. "So your two princesses share a common cause, ser . . . and they share as well a knight who claims to love them both, but will not fight for them."

This was the first we learned of the most formidable of the sellsword companies, which was founded by Bittersteel with those Blackfyre loyalists that had followed him across the Narrow Sea. They continued to fight for gold, but we were told that they want home, i.e., the Seven Kingdoms. We also read that Bittersteel returned two more times to lead the Third Blackfyre Rebellion and the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. And then, perhaps most importantly, we read the arms of House Toland, a dragon eating its own tail, and we were told that the dragon was time, and all things come round again. The George did not even start a new paragraph. This was not just homage to The Wheel of Time. The George was clearly telling us early in the second act of ASOIAF, when Daenerys Targaryen would return to reclaim her fathers throne, that the Blackfyre, or at least something like it, would return.

And it's not just The Dance and The Blackfyre. How many things do we look back on see were forshadowed in ASOIAF?

[RumHam]

Yeah that woulda been a climatic ending! It'd be akin to perfoming the fade out at the end of a song on a rock & roll record live.

I seriously doubt the adninistration of government in Westeros following the War for the Dawn will be spelled out for the reader. The George's criticism of Tolkein showed how Tolkein neglected that development of Aragorn. But we see those details in the development of Jon, Daenerys, Petyr, and others (that's just "others" Lucifer means Lightbringer, not "Others"). So there's no need for him to go on and on. I could see him ending with special snowflake being crowned or dying of a mortal wound after defeating the Others, or maybe an epilogue with Bran recalling how things ended up. But I don't think we're going to get a post-history.

Yeah, I do agree. I mean I get the point that Martin was making, but nobody wants to read an epilogue about tax policies. Or maybe some people do, what do I know. I bet somewhere somebody's working on a piece of fan fiction about Aragorn's epic struggle to initiate a progressive income tax.

Down the line after the main series, Dunk & Egg and Fire & Blood are done I would love to see a maester's account of the events of the books and a bit beyond.

[Stonehearted Snake]

Think you're talking about this description of a question and answer session at Con-Carolinas:

http://www.staceysimms.com/george-r-r-martin-qa/

Sadly it's not a direct quote. By no history/precedent does he mean it's never been done or just that there is no record of it?

yes, that's it! Thank you!

I read the "history/precedent" statement as indicating there might be skinchanging of dragons in the future.... The idea that an already powerful skinchanger, such as Jon might turn out to be, skinchanging a dragon doesn't seem that far off. We just don't know much about skinchanging generally. It isn't discussed in the world book (IIRC) and it does seem to be an "of the North" quality.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah, I do agree. I mean I get the point that Martin was making, but nobody wants to read an epilogue about tax policies. Or maybe some people do, what do I know. I bet somewhere somebody's working on a piece of fan fiction about Aragorn's epic struggle to initiate a progressive income tax.

Down the line after the main series, Dunk & Egg and Fire & Blood are done I would love to see a maester's account of the events of the books and a bit beyond.

I agree with most of the criticism about GRRM's reference to tax policy -- but to fair to him, he is not talking about an epilogue. He is talking about showing the difficulties of actually ruling and the details involved. And those issues are not going to be explored in an epilogue -- they have been explored along the way. That is why GRRM addresses issues of funding the costs of the kingdom -- including borrowing from the Iron Bank and taking money from the Lannisters -- as well as details in Meereen about the difficulties in day-to-day ruling of a government. I don't think GRRM really means the details of the tax system and the tax rates and the collections mechanism -- he means that day-to-day operations of a government are hard and he wants a series that creates a world to consider those issues as part of the world-building process. Personally, I am not as certain that a good story really needs to focus that much on those issues, but GRRM is making a point that seems to have more validity than the quote about tax policy -- taken out of context -- would suggest.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Most observers suggest that it's a simple homage to The Wheel of Time, but it's much more... oh, ever so much more... oh, muchly much-much more (I read a lot of Dr. Seuss)...

This was the first we learned of the most formidable of the sellsword companies, which was founded by Bittersteel with those Blackfyre loyalists that had followed him across the Narrow Sea. They continued to fight for gold, but we were told that they want home, i.e., the Seven Kingdoms. We also read that Bittersteel returned two more times to lead the Third Blackfyre Rebellion and the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. And then, perhaps most importantly, we read the arms of House Toland, a dragon eating its own tail, and we were told that the dragon was time, and all things come round again. The George did not even start a new paragraph. This was not just homage to The Wheel of Time. The George was clearly telling us early in the second act of ASOIAF, when Daenerys Targaryen would return to reclaim her fathers throne, that the Blackfyre, or at least something like it, would return.

And it's not just The Dance and The Blackfyre. How many things do we look back on see were forshadowed in ASOIAF?

oh right. I agree history repeats itself (in rhymes).

ANd yeah when Dany comes back the Blackfyres (aegon) will also come back and the dragons will dance and people will die, like Teora said.

But what about the bit you were saying about Bran? Has someone warged a dragon in the past? Are you just referring to his coma dream in GOT?

[Lord Varys]

An account by Grand Maester Yandel about the fate of the surviving characters would be nice. If Arya, Rickon, Bran, Shireen, Dany, Jon, etc. survive it would be interesting to see what they do as real grown-ups.

[Chinoiserie]

I agree with most of the criticism about GRRM's reference to tax policy -- but to fair to him, he is not talking about an epilogue. He is talking about showing the difficulties of actually ruling and the details involved. And those issues are not going to be explored in an epilogue -- they have been explored along the way. That is why GRRM addresses issues of funding the costs of the kingdom -- including borrowing from the Iron Bank and taking money from the Lannisters -- as well as details in Meereen about the difficulties in day-to-day ruling of a government. I don't think GRRM really means the details of the tax system and the tax rates and the collections mechanism -- he means that day-to-day operations of a government are hard and he wants a series that creates a world to consider those issues as part of the world-building process. Personally, I am not as certain that a good story really needs to focus that much on those issues, but GRRM is making a point that seems to have more validity than the quote about tax policy -- taken out of context -- would suggest.

I think this is why Dany and Jon would survive to the end. Their journey's have been more realistic versions of Aragorn's in a way and they have been learning how to rule. In the end there will be a battle between evil creatures in the climax of the series as well and I feel Martin wanted to make the journey there more realistic and complicated. I feel Marin is more conventional storyteller some think. I believe he wants to subvert and invert some tropes but I doubt that he is planning a great this like the White Walkers were the good guys.

[Lost Melnibonean]

oh right. I agree history repeats itself (in rhymes).

ANd yeah when Dany comes back the Blackfyres (aegon) will also come back and the dragons will dance and people will die, like Teora said.

But what about the bit you were saying about Bran? Has someone warged a dragon in the past? Are you just referring to his coma dream in GOT?

No. What I was pointing at was that nobody has warged a dragon. And since we haven't seen anything like that happen before, and since The George pointed out that we haven't seen anything like that happen before, we shouldn't be expecting it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

An account by Grand Maester Yandel about the fate of the surviving characters would be nice. If Arya, Rickon, Bran, Shireen, Dany, Jon, etc. survive it would be interesting to see what they do as real grown-ups.

*cough* boring *cough*

[Stonehearted Snake]

I was wondering... Do any of the TeamAJT folks here have any thoughts on the Ragnarok theory? I'd seen it referenced a few times but every time I tried to read it, I got distracted or confused. But I really made myself sit down and do it this time. And a lot of it rests on Jaime and Cersei being Targ bastards, not Tyrion (in fact the guy who wrote the big blog post about it made a point of emphasizing that Tyrion is Tywin's only son). I see a lot of similarities but am not totally sold. Of course, it's also totally possible/probable that GRRM incorporated some elements and not others. Anyways, just wondering what other people's thoughts are.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I was wondering... Do any of the TeamAJT folks here have any thoughts on the Ragnarok theory? I'd seen it referenced a few times but every time I tried to read it, I got distracted or confused. But I really made myself sit down and do it this time. And a lot of it rests on Jaime and Cersei being Targ bastards, not Tyrion (in fact the guy who wrote the big blog post about it made a point of emphasizing that Tyrion is Tywin's only son). I see a lot of similarities but am not totally sold. Of course, it's also totally possible/probable that GRRM incorporated some elements and not others. Anyways, just wondering what other people's thoughts are.

I also have never really been able to get through that theory. I think the evidence in the text of the books that J&C are Targs and Tyrion the true-born son of Tywin is simply not there. So any theory that relies on such conclusions would be fatally flawed (IMHO). I think GRRM is quite well read and enjoys taking little pieces from many sources. It would not surprise me if GRRM borrowed from Norse mythology, but GRRM is not retelling any other story -- he is combining bits and pieces from different sources to tell his own unique story.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No. What I was pointing at was that nobody has warged a dragon. And since we haven't seen anything like that happen before, and since The George pointed out that we haven't seen anything like that happen before, we shouldn't be expecting it.

OK Right. I didn't think so. And yeah I kind of doubt it will happen too. I feel like most everything that will happen from here on out has been somewhat foreshadowed already, in one way or another. Like for instance I do not think there is an ice dragon under winterfell, because there have been no hints of it anywhere.

[Stonehearted Snake]

I also have never really been able to get through that theory. I think the evidence in the text of the books that J&C are Targs and Tyrion the true-born son of Tywin is simply not there. So any theory that relies on such conclusions would be fatally flawed (IMHO). I think GRRM is quite well read and enjoys taking little pieces from many sources. It would not surprise me if GRRM borrowed from Norse mythology, but GRRM is not retelling any other story -- he is combining bits and pieces from different sources to tell his own unique story.

Yeah upon more reflection this is what I think too. I was already of the (semi-heretical) belief that things were not as clear as they seemed between the COTF, Others and the rest of Westeros, which I think is the broad foundation of the Ragnarok theory. But trying to equate specific characters in ASOIAF to specific characters in Norse mythology and then predict their trajectory is much more difficult. There are too many similarities to be totally discounted as a probably general source of inspiration for GRRM but I don't think we can then draw from that what exactly every character's role in moving towards the end game is, eg, I don't think Jaime is AA, which is another big foundation of the theory, built off of the specific character and story of Tyr in Norse mythology. If GRRM was following Ragnarok exactly that is the likely outcome but I don't see anything in the world of ASOIAF to indicate that Jaime is AA. But I do kinda agree on the COTF/Bloodraven stuff and some of the theory of the ending.

Sorry, hope I didn't derail too much! Thanks for humoring me!

Do any of you follow the show boards? There's a A+J=T debate happening there too. When I was reading it I saw that even a couple pages in I was the only theory subscriber so of course put my $.02. But it is really near impossible to show evidence for the theory in the show only. Not that that means anything - there was almost nothing for R+L=J until a couple episodes ago.

[Chinoiserie]

If Tyrion ends up being Aerys's son it would be rather funny if it was revealed before R+L=J since so many dislike this theory because it would be silly to have two secret Targaryens.

Not that this could happen (unless the show reveals things first in different eoisodes, but I rather would not want show revealing things), since they both would have to be revealed in the next book. Unless GRRM is planning on 8 books.

[Lord Varys]

Well, we got two additional secret Targaryens in ADwD - Bloodraven as the three-eyed crow, and Aegon as either Rhaegar's son or a Blackfyre descendant. Tyrion would be just one more, and not exactly one people had been expecting since AgoT (Jon Snow) or ACoK (Aegon) or TSS/AFfC/TMK (Bloodraven). It was only ADwD and the continuous revelation about Joanna and Aerys in TWoIaF that made this a very likely possibility. Without that, Tyrion would be undoubtedly Tywin's son.

Before ADwD there were some theories about Jaime/Cersei or Tyrion being Aerys' children but they were essentially 'what if' theories (i.e. what if Aerys and Joanna had sex) using certain similarities and hints as clues (mismatched eyes, the fact that Joanna died at Tyrion's birth, the dragon dreams/fascination, and the expectation that Tyrion will become a dragonrider). But now we know they actually had sex.