Will Theon's advice backfire? (Theon chapter)

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

This is a question regarding the Theon chapter GRRM published, so if you haven't read it or don't want to spoil, please stop reading.

Theon in this chapter recalls how he and Jeyne escaped, and he advises her not to tell anyone who she really is but to keep impersonating Arya, because no one would care for a nobody that was forced to work in a brothel.

I was wondering, do you think this is bad advice? Theon of course has the best intentions, but I'm worried someone might accuse Jeyne of impersonating Arya, and her fate would be a lot worse than it would have been if she was simply Jeyne.

I really hope nothing bad happens to her because she has suffered more than anyone, but I'm really worried.

[laura898]

maybe, but overall I think that they'll just pity her. Plus, what punishment could they inflict that is worst than what she's already been through?

[Ice Turtle]

Theon does not have best intentions. I don't have the chapter saved but IIRC he thinks that if Jeyne reveals herself both of them are doomed.

And I think it is a bed advice.

[nickdt]

If Jeyne tells it or not, some Northerns will prolly find out and then they are in far worse trouble for not telling the truth. If all, Jeyne can tell Alysane. She is wiser than most of the other Northmen and will protect her to, because she is a girl and its likely she will sent Jeyne to Bear Island when she sees the chance.

[Steelborn]

Theon was concerned about his life too. Yet, he has the best intentions. The northmen or Stannis would never help her if she was revealed as an impostor.

For all he knows, Arya is dead. That being said, I think the possibility of a backfire effect grows the longer it takes for the reveal.

[Balerion the kitten]

That's what I thought when I read that. Everything about jeyne is so heartbreaking and hard to read. I'm willing to say she's had it the hardest, her and theon.

But her identity isn't going to remain sealed for long. Whether that's better or worse for jeyne I can't say.

[Rena Melville]

Theon does not have best intentions. I don't have the chapter saved but IIRC he thinks that if Jeyne reveals herself both of them are doomed.

And I think it is a bed advice.

If he was not concerned, though, he would have told abel and the washerwomen about Jeyne true identity, but he didn't.

[girlfrommonday]

If he was not concerned, though, he would have told abel and the washerwomen about Jeyne true identity, but he didn't.

I got the impression that he didn't reveal Jeyne identity because Abel would not help her (and in extension Theon) escape.

[Gerg Sknab]

If he was not concerned, though, he would have told abel and the washerwomen about Jeyne true identity, but he didn't.

Here is a curiousity for you. Abel already knows Arya is fake, he didn't need Theon to tell him.

What the curiousity is, is why Abel and the spearwifes carried on with their mission, it would have been much simpler just to disappear into the snow as soon as they saw fArya.

Remember Mance knows and recognized the Starks and what they look like from his last foray over the wall less than two years previous. He would recognize an 8 year old couldn't blossom to a 14 year old in that space of time.

As far as Theon keeping his info close to the vest with Stannis, fArya is the only card he has play with him. No the problem there is he has already spilled his guts to Asha and at this point we don't know where Asha's loyalties lie do we?

[Steelborn]

I got the impression that he didn't reveal Jeyne identity because Abel would not help her (and in extension Theon) escape.

Exactly. Had he revealed Jeyne's identity, it's hard to figure they would risk their lives saving her.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Here is a curiousity for you. Abel already knows Arya is fake, he didn't need Theon to tell him.

What the curiousity is, is why Abel and the spearwifes carried on with their mission, it would have been much simpler just to disappear into the snow as soon as they saw fArya.

Remember Mance knows and recognized the Starks and what they look like from his last foray over the wall less than two years previous. He would recognize an 8 year old couldn't blossom to a 14 year old in that space of time.

As far as Theon keeping his info close to the vest with Stannis, fArya is the only card he has play with him. No the problem there is he has already spilled his guts to Asha and at this point we don't know where Asha's loyalties lie do we?

I can see how this makes sense logically but it's definitely not fact yet. We have no clue how much Abel saw of Arya at Winterfell in the beginning even tho he noticed Jon you can chalk that up to wanting to see the great Eddards one "flaw" or something along those lines. I dont think him and the spearwives would risk their own lifes for regular old Jeynne

[Queen of dragonstone]

I can see how this makes sense logically but it's definitely not fact yet. We have no clue how much Abel saw of Arya at Winterfell in the beginning even tho he noticed Jon you can chalk that up to wanting to see the great Eddards one "flaw" or something along those lines. I dont think him and the spearwives would risk their own lifes for regular old Jeynne

If you read the chapter where Jon's sitting in the "bastard" area while the rest are sitting with the king and the queen and the royal family feasting, he notes a singer near them. Probably Mance.

So mance got a (very) good look at the royal family, and the stark family. Arya being among them.

And if he could recognise jon from that distance he could recognise jeyne is fake.

[girlfrommonday]

If you read the chapter where Jon's sitting in the "bastard" area while the rest are sitting with the king and the queen and the royal family feasting, he notes a singer near them. Probably Mance.

"A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of high hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of fire (…)"

I have a suspition that they are other singers in the North than Mance also ;)

[bemused]

Mance doesn't play the high harp. He plays the lute.

a grey-haired man in a tattered cloak of black and red sat cross-legged on a pillow, playing a lute and singing:

The Dornishman’s wife was as fair as the sun, and her kisses were warmer than spring.

But the Dornishman’s blade was made of black steel, and its kiss was a terrible thing. ...ASoS

Up near the dais, Abel was plucking at his lute and singing “Fair Maids of Summer.” ...ADWD

It's debatable how much attention Mance would have paid to the youngest girl (I think he'd pay much more attention to the boys, and Benjen, since they would be potential future opposition).. but I still wouldn't rule out that he could recognise her. At least he could have similar thoughts to Jon's when he met Alys Karstark... she might seem too old.

Actually, he might well rescue her even knowing. Besides being a horrible fate to leave anyone to, rescuing her still weakens the Boltons and would help both Jon and Stannis ...and Mance's "son" is at CB.

I don't think Jeyne's masquerade can last long, but I think Theon was trying to give good advice.

[Hos the Hostage]

I think Theon will be in more trouble than Jeyne will be, if the truth is found out. Jeyne is a victim, and Theon is a turncloak. She can say (honestly) that Theon made her lie about her identity. At the moment they start this farce, we think its gonna fall into pieces once they reach the Wall, for Jon will recognize Jeyne. Even Theon muses on the same, in the WoW sample chapter. But then comes the plot-twist - Jon may not be in a situation that allows him to open his eyes, let alone recognize Jeyne. My guess is that she will be taken to Braavos, with Ser Justin Massey. And wouldn't it be nice if she crosses path with the real Arya Stark? Mind you, one speculation for Arya is that she will return to Winterfell wearing the face of the girl who is pretending to be Arya Stark. ie, Arya posing as Jeyne posing as Arya.

[The Giver]

I can picture it now, actually.

Fake Arya goes to the wall. Then from there is sent to Braavos (perhaps with Justin Massey who is already heading that way).

When Jon wakes up, he hears his sister was sent to Braavos. If at some point he goes looking for her there (That's the difficult part to figure), then he could run into Real Arya.

Awesome.

[conon394]

OP

Good advice. She passed the basic test and he could resonantly expect nobody in The army of Stannis would know the difference. Sure he already knows his life is done if he gets sent to Jon. But still a clean death - he can't know about the kings' blood thing and the red witch - but really even burning is likely less worse than he has lived through.

For her its a ticket to wall at least and if Jon is mad he certainly will not harm Jeyne in any way.

----------------

So mance got a (very) good look at the royal family, and the stark family. Arya being among them.
And if he could recognise jon from that distance he could recognise jeyne is fake.

Would he?

Eyewitness testimony is notorious unreliable. And this is world w/o google images and/or photos. One night and he committed all faces to his photographic memory. Arya is an afterthought in Winterfell behind Sansa and three Brothers and Jon who Robert would have legitimized at Ned's request. Its hard to believe she even got a second look. Even then kids grow at bizarre rates. I was at my son's final band concert (he is 7th Grade) Grades 6/7/8. But he looks like a child out of place and some of the 6th grade girls looked like they should be in 8th Grade if not high school... Nobody in the north has seen Arya in how long?

[Masha]

I sincerely doubt that Theon advice would backfire on Jeyne.

First of all, I am reasonably sure that most Northerners (especially if Northern conspiracy is right) are already aware that Jeyne is not Arya. The only ones who don't know are Stannis and his men, Freys, and Asha (and those who didn't see Jeyne in person - Jon Snow, etc).

And at this point, I doubt that Stannis would ever get a chance to find out that Jeyne is not Arya, short of him living long enough to see his man (forgot his name) returning from Braavos with real Arya in tow. Also, even if this happens, I doubt that Arya would reveal herself unless Jeyne/Theon recognize her and basically scream out loud her true identity.

The only other way I can figure that Jeyne's true identity would be revealed, if Ramsey taunts Stannis that this is not Arya, but I doubt that he is that stupid, as him marrying Arya Stark was the whole point of this whole ordeal.

[Agravayne]

I think it is good advice.

Mance is just one of many people who either know that "Arya" is fake, or at least have enough information to form a strong suspicion. However, to a certain extent it doesn't matter anymore whether Jeyne is Arya or not. The simple fact that the Boltons, Freys and Ryswells are saying that she is Arya makes her valuable. One day, one of the people who suspect or know the truth will find it more profitable to reveal that, than to keep silent, but until then ...

[girlfrommonday]

I can picture it now, actually.

Fake Arya goes to the wall. Then from there is sent to Braavos (perhaps with Justin Massey who is already heading that way).

When Jon wakes up, he hears his sister was sent to Braavos. If at some point he goes looking for her there (That's the difficult part to figure), then he could run into Real Arya.

Awesome

This scenario give me another idea: what if Fake Arya goes to the wall, and when Jon wakes up and claims that she is fake nobody will listen to him because for whatever reason he will be acting overall strange.