Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

[LmL]

I tend to think that George specifically avoided those three for the GEotD because they have been in use in Westeros from the beginning. If one of them was called the Emerald Emperor, you'd instantly conclude that he was Lann the Clever, since Lannisters have Emerald Eyes about a million times. Same for ruby and sapphire...

Blind Beth' ideas are very interesting - I'm still trying to wrap my brain around them. I can't rule them out, and there is some evidence, but I am not seeing enough as of yet to jump on board - in general I try not to jump to conclusions. My usual tactic when someone makes a suggestion to me (and this happens often), I simply reserve judgment, and keep it in mind as I re-read text, which I do all the time via audiobook. I have started a re-read since discovering the astronomy pattern, but I also jump around based on various ideas I have. I have a bunch of ideas in the back of my mind and as I see the text clues jump out, certain ones may come forward. Durran suggested that the Night's Queen may have been an ice version of Melisandre, with her fire inside her that transforms her, and ever since I've found a lot of evidence for it.

I do think the Others were created, and I am sure that greenseers (likely men, not cotf) were involved. But there are a few potential ties from Azor Ahai to the Others that I am starting to see... the COSW is tied to the Faith and the Others, and I am still trying to sort out those connections. I was back-channeling with Evolett about that, and making progress, but we both got busy with other things. I need to clear my plate with swords and moons essays and then I plan to grab the elk by the horns. Coldhands is the key to understanding Garth, imo.

But Blind Beth, let's talk about Azor Ahai and the others. First, small correction, the Stranger had STAR eyes, not sapphires. And he was called the wanderer from far off places - that is comet all the way. And his face is a black shadow - the Others are pale shadows... although the "Great Other" may be a black shadow. I have an idea about that actually...

If the sun is the bright fire, the fire moon the dark fire, the ice moon is ice that shines, what is cold and dark? SPACE. Sopace is black, punctuated by stars. This is the Great Other. The great Other is a void, a medium in which we exist. It's pretty abstract. But the comets come from space. They start off cold and dark, cold stone and iron and trace minerals. As they near the sun, they gain the tail and appear to be on fire. If it makes it all the way to a planet or moon, the comet becomes a huge fireball. Thus, the wanderer from far off places represents ice and fire together, yes, but also a process, perhaps. The comet ends in fire or flooding.. and then darkness. Fire burns bright, but leaves things black. I think George is personifying these basic properties and processes and constructing magic off of them. That's why Others are pale shadows and fire magic is a dark shadow.

But perhaps the shadow itself is the connection here. Shadowbinders and Others both hide their face from the sun. Fire people give birth to dark shadows, while Others are pale shadows. But both are shadows... Some argue fire magic was simply adapted to a different climate and became cold magic. Thing is, I have found a ton, a ton of evidence linking greenseers and Others. So... I just haven't got it all sorted out yet. :dunno:

Consider the sun in this process. First, it lashes out with its fire sword / penis and kills / impregnates the moon. This causes an explosion, dragon meteors are born. Ha ha! The sun wins! He killed his wife, he's a patriarchal homicidal maniac, and he wins! Except... then it goes dark. The sun turns into the night sun, the Lion of Night. This represents the blood betrayal - we might say that Azor Ahai, fire warrior, has transformed into the Bloodstone Emperor. Eventually, though, the sun comes back out. That might be a new sun being born, or it could be the old sun resurrected.

Stannis seems like Azor Ahai transforming into an Other. Or, he could be Garth transforming into AA into an Other (NK let's say). It's hard to tell if the metaphor is confined to a chapter, or follows a character through the whole series. Stannis obviously not Azor Ahai, but if George wants to do AA metaphors in the story, Stannis the logical choice. Beric, when he had his fire sword, of course. George hides them where you think he would hide them. Stannis has a lightbringer sword, and George uses that. WhatI am saying is that in many scenes, Stannis has played the role of AA. For sure. But hat doesn't mean he can't do other things at other times... I can't say I know all the rules, or if there are consistent rules. So keep exploring your ideas. We are sniffing around at something here, I know it's important but I can't say I have a clear picture.

The strongest evidence for your theory, Blind Beth, is that the sun and moon gave birth to three dragons. Thus, the idea of three children has a precedent.

[Durran Durrandon]

There are some great catches in here. I'm kind of fixating on the four glass candles, three black and one green. I keep thinking of Patchface: under the seas fire burns black and green and blue.

[LmL]

Yeah it's easy to see three black candles and think "three heads of the dragon / 3 moon meteors," but what is the green? Perhaps earth, because the three meteors landed on earth, but.. this doesn't really seem significant, on its own. Now, if you read back over the last page or two, Durran, you'll see me talking about the idea of Azor Ahai with two wing men, all with shadowswords. The reversal of the ToJ idea. But again, the green is... ?

[Durran Durrandon]

Howland Reed!!

Just kidding.

[LmL]

troll.

[Amris]

[snip]

I can answer every single one of these questions by positing the not-actually-that-far-fetched existence of a sapphire demigod who is half-CotF, who makes the first heart-tempered blade, kills Garth and some of his children, masters ice magic, and becomes known to R'hllorists as the Great Other, nemesis of Azor Ahai, and to the CoSW simply as the Stranger. "We don't sing about the Stranger." His sword is Ice, opposite of Azor Ahai's fiery Lightbringer. Blue and red, ice and fire, sapphire and ruby. When opposed to the emerald demigod, he is winter to summer. Together the three of them make red, green, and blue; ruby, emerald, and sapphire. The three forks of the Trident.

It just fits so neatly into the huge gap in our sapphire symbolism knowledge and ties everything up so neatly. A sapphire demigod whose nature is ice. No textual proof per se, just a really neat fit into the gap.

Sapphires are blue.

A sapphire demigod? Hm. This evokes a picture in my brain: Maybe I am going off the deep end here, but both Stannis and Shireen are blue-eyed. Stannis wields a - seemingly fake - fire sword right now but maybe he is meant to wield an ice blade?

Also Stannis (seems to) appear in the House of the Undying prophecy.

in ADWD, Jon X, Melisandre says: 'When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.'

I found these interesting bits about Shireen in the prologue of ACoK:

'The comet's tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky [...]'

'... yestermorn a white raven had brought word from the Citadel itself ... word of summer's end. Omens, all. Too many to deny.'

"Maester Cressen, we have visitors ... the princess [shireen] would see the white raven." Ever correct, Pylos called her princess now, as her lord father was a king. King of a smoking rock in the great salt sea [...]"

"Who comes to see us so early, Pylos?" Cressen said.

"It's me and Patches, maester." Guileless blue eyes blinked at him. [...]

Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day [...]

Dragonstone was ... surrounded by storm and salt, with the smoking shadow of the mountain at its back.

A maester must go where he is sent, so Cressen had come here with his lord some twelve years past [...]

This states Stannis came to Dragonstone twelve years ago, so Shireen - who is nine now - was born on Dragonstone - among the smoke and salt.

Having found the bleeding star, the smoke and the salt and a princess born I wondered if the chapter would also mention dragons woken from stone - aside from the obvious 'Dragonstone' - reference mentioned several times in the text above which is interesting on its own ...

Sure enough - three paragraphs further down in the prologue it comes:

"This is early to come calling, scarce past dawn. You should be snug in your bed."

"I had bad dreams," Shireen told him. "About the dragons. They were coming to eat me." [...]

"The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child."

So Shireen has woken dragons from stone - in her dreams.

The prophecy is literally being fulfilled within three pages of the ACoK-prologue. Whether that means Shireen is Azor Ahai I do not know. Maybe it is just one more iteration of the same theme and does not mean that other people cannot be potential Azor Ahais also.

My own opinion is that Shireen is a stand-in for Dany in this chapter (all of the above clues which GRRM lays on so thick there about salt and smoke and a princess born on dragonstone) fit Dany as well and she literally woke dragons from stone (not just in her dreams).

But since you are expecting a blue-eyed demigod for your theory and Shireen has blue eyes and technically fulfills the Azor Ahai prophecy I thought I'd mention it.

[LmL]

Kind of sounds like foreshadowing that she will be eaten by a dragon - sacrificed to wake a dragon, as many suspect.

There is a TON of stuff going on in that chapter, I'd be careful ascribing things to Shireen specifically. Still, she does have the dream, which is very interesting. There are definitely more than one person who meets the "smoke and salted ham" prophecy, so it's possible this is yet another.

Kinda does seem like foreshadowing her sacrifice.. that would be sad. :dunce:

[Amris]

Kind of sounds like foreshadowing that she will be eaten by a dragon - sacrificed to wake a dragon, as many suspect.

There is a TON of stuff going on in that chapter, I'd be careful ascribing things to Shireen specifically. Still, she does have the dream, which is very interesting. There are definitely more than one person who meets the "smoke and salted ham" prophecy, so it's possible this is yet another.

Kinda does seem like foreshadowing her sacrifice.. that would be sad. :dunce:

Well - if Shireen of the blue eyes turns out to be part of the Ice side it would make sense for her being afraid of being eaten by the incarnations of the Fire side.

[Mithras]

The comet’s tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky.

This was how Cressen described the red comet.

A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

And this is from the dawn of the last Barristan chapter in ADwD. Note that this chapter was given right after Jon was stabbed and “blood welled” from his wound at the neck.

It was a rainy day with grey clouds. I assume that the attack from the gates is made by the first lights of the next day. Someone mentions “a red dawn” and Barristan corrects him by “a dragon dawn”.

Fingers are crossed for the return of the red comet. Perhaps at the evening of the Battle of Fire.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Very nice stuff. Though I have to wonder, why are ruby, emerald, and sapphire demigods in Westeros rather than the GEoTD?

You'd have to ask them, lol. But, looking at the description of the GEotD, it had a definite decline in power and general awesomeness over time. My guess is that the emerald demigod wanted a fresh start, sapphire demigod thought Westeros was looking like more fun than Essos at the time and tried to take over, and ruby is symbolic of the former bloodstone demigod acting in the role of Azor Ahai.

It's notable that while the GEotD did not survive the Long Night, a couple of other civilizations like the Rhoynar apparently did. Which points even more to a civilization that had been great but was in serious decline even before the LN.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

@Amris:

Sapphires are blue.

A sapphire demigod? Hm. This evokes a picture in my brain: Maybe I am going off the deep end here, but both Stannis and Shireen are blue-eyed. Stannis wields a - seemingly fake - fire sword right now but maybe he is meant to wield an ice blade?

Also Stannis (seems to) appear in the House of the Undying prophecy.

in ADWD, Jon X, Melisandre says: 'When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.'

I found these interesting bits about Shireen in the prologue of ACoK:

'The comet's tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky [...]'

'... yestermorn a white raven had brought word from the Citadel itself ... word of summer's end. Omens, all. Too many to deny.'

"Maester Cressen, we have visitors ... the princess [shireen] would see the white raven." Ever correct, Pylos called her princess now, as her lord father was a king. King of a smoking rock in the great salt sea [...]"

"Who comes to see us so early, Pylos?" Cressen said.

"It's me and Patches, maester." Guileless blue eyes blinked at him. [...]

Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day [...]

Dragonstone was ... surrounded by storm and salt, with the smoking shadow of the mountain at its back.

A maester must go where he is sent, so Cressen had come here with his lord some twelve years past [...]

This states Stannis came to Dragonstone twelve years ago, so Shireen - who is nine now - was born on Dragonstone - among the smoke and salt.

----I agree Shireen is VERY interesting. There is apparently a connection between water magic and greyscale, and Patchface obviously has a huge potential sea-magic connection. With all the talk of the Night's Queen and Melisandre slowly converting from human to ice/fire creatures, it really made me think of how greyscale, a water-curse, slowly converts humans in to stone creatures. Creatures of stone that do the bidding of the Deep Ones? Shireen is apparently cured, but…magic is getting stronger, will it start back up again? Stone men as sort of the white walkers or wights of the Deep Ones would explain why wildlings are so freaking terrified of greyscale and Val wants to kill Shireen even though she's just a child.

----I'm feeling a lot less sure these days that Dragonstone is what "smoke and salt" is referring to. The more I look at Azor Ahai as the resurrected/repentant Bloodstone Emperor, who probably also was the Last Hero (LH gets the info, AA makes the blade, LH seen using the blade…seems simplest to view them as one person in two roles), the more that story frame seems like a dead ringer for Jon, who may soon be resurrected in a smoky salt cellar, and could easily play the role of Last Hero (magic sword info-finder) while inside of Ghost. And I find the Mel=bleeding star arugment extremely convincing.

Having found the bleeding star, the smoke and the salt and a princess born I wondered if the chapter would also mention dragons woken from stone - aside from the obvious 'Dragonstone' - reference mentioned several times in the text above which is interesting on its own ...

Sure enough - three paragraphs further down in the prologue it comes:

"This is early to come calling, scarce past dawn. You should be snug in your bed."

"I had bad dreams," Shireen told him. "About the dragons. They were coming to eat me." [...]

"The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child."

So Shireen has woken dragons from stone - in her dreams.

----Actually…already-woken dragons are trying to eat Shireen. Which, if her grayscale starts back up and turns her into an agent of the Deep Ones, would be a logical thing to happen. Kind of hope I'm wrong about this theory, poor Shireen.

The prophecy is literally being fulfilled within three pages of the ACoK-prologue. Whether that means Shireen is Azor Ahai I do not know. Maybe it is just one more iteration of the same theme and does not mean that other people cannot be potential Azor Ahais also.

My own opinion is that Shireen is a stand-in for Dany in this chapter (all of the above clues which GRRM lays on so thick there about salt and smoke and a princess born on dragonstone) fit Dany as well and she literally woke dragons from stone (not just in her dreams).

----The dragon-dream does seem to point to Dany, but Dany and Shireen's dragon dreams are thematically very different. Dany dreams of birthing and becoming a dragon, and it makes her feel happy and powerful. Shireen dreams of being hunted by dragons, and it scares her.

But since you are expecting a blue-eyed demigod for your theory and Shireen has blue eyes and technically fulfills the Azor Ahai prophecy I thought I'd mention it.

----I agree the blue eyes of Stannis and Shireen are definitely significant and do fit into my theory, just not quite that way. I actually see Stannis as having once been on the path to become like the sapphire demigod of the past who became a dark magic terror---if he'd kept listening to Melisandre he could easily have gone down that path, and he was on that path when he killed Renly, which is why I think the Stannis/Renly scenes are allegories for the past actions of the sapphire and emerald demigods. But under the influence of Davos he turned from that path and is now on an arc to become a (non-magical) hero of the Long Night, holding the North together while magical shenanigans are sorted out by Azor Ahai. There's precedence for this in the past Long Night, with stories of heroic Rhoynar and other figures who saved their people during the Long Night. I don't think they are other names for Azor Ahai, I think they were local heroes who kept bits of civilization together while AA was busy defeating the Others (led by the sapphire demigod in my theory.) And who better to literally and figuratively "hold down the fort" than Stannis, legendary holder of Storm's End?

[LmL]

^^^ or they got walloped by a hellfire meteor shower....

Mithras: I think I included this observation in my second essay - you may have been the one to point it out (I don't remember anymore). The line is identical (ooh see what I did there) and the end of book 5 seems like the right time to hint at its return.

That motherfucker is gonna hit the ice moon, don't say I didn't call it. I don't make many predictions for the end of the story... but that's one of them. It may even happen next book, perhaps timed with Jon's resurrection.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

@LmL: You bring up a lot of good points, and I'm eager to address them. Alas this is as much time as I have today and I have a very busy weekend coming up. I will respond as soon as I can.

[LmL]

It's ok I have some projects the next few days and should restrain myself from interneting anyway. I've thrown out a ton of stuff in this thread; some of it hasn't even been commented on - I got out ahead of things a little. I think I'm going to let people catch up and try to get some (real) work done this weekend. So cheers, fellow worker bee.

One question: you are placing Stannis in your sapphire demigod role, but earlier you were placing Brienne in that role by way of her connections to Tarth and her status as Evenstar. That makes more sense to me, since she is convered in blue and doesn't have any other symbolism. Tarth having moved its capital from Morne to Evenfall is highly symbolic, of course. So if Stannis is the sapphires guy when he kills Renly, who is Brienne?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Brienne represents the good potential of the sapphire demigod. The love and loyalty instead of the greed and ambition. The sapphire demigod chose to follow his darker instincts and became evil, but there was potential for another way. By moving from Morne to Evenfall, Tarth culture was trying to reject the dark and embrace this good side of the sapphire nature.

In this explanation perhaps lies the answer to Cercei's emerald connection. As a monarch she could have been generous and fruitful, making the kingdom a better place, like Garth. Instead she let her bitterness and paranoia rule her, becoming incestuous and generally making things worse. Joffrey was the "fruit" of this dark side of the emerald nature.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

It's also interesting that Lord Selwyn Tarth personally rejected Stannis's emisaries before the battle of Blackwater. The Lord of Tarth refused to support a blue eyed ruler who used dark magic in his bid to overthrow a family of emerald eyed monarchs. I bet Lord Selwyn knows more about his island's history than Brienne does, and has learned from it.

[Han Snow]

{I’m not sure who coined that term, but it wasn’t me, so speak up if you know who did and I’ll be happy to give the appropriate credit.}

You are welcome. :cool4:

Nice topic.

Anyhow, Voice of the First Men is right when he says that WW's like moonlight, or as he put it

moonlight seems to be the only light acceptable to Others

It is only logical because The Moon is an Ice Moon. The one that was destroyed was Fire Moon. So it makes sense that in the black of Night under the light of their magical homeland/source of power that they would thrive.

So, when you propose that for the second Long Night to happen, the Ice Moon has to be destroyed. I kinda agree, but would that make WW's and their minions weaker than if it was up there shining upon them? Or will the playing field be level again for both Ice and Fire? Will it mean extinction for both Dragons and the WW's?! I think this. So the Age of Men and only men can truly begin, and the season can go back to normal. At least until Planetosians evolve until the point where they are killing it with waste, polution and all of the nice things we do to our mother Earth. Until the third and the last LN takes care of them. Like Snowball Earth is going to demolish us, sooner rather than later.

[Durran Durrandon]

It's also interesting that Lord Selwyn Tarth personally rejected Stannis's emisaries before the battle of Blackwater. The Lord of Tarth refused to support a blue eyed ruler who used dark magic in his bid to overthrow a family of emerald eyed monarchs. I bet Lord Selwyn knows more about his island's history than Brienne does, and has learned from it.

This brings up a topic that is always in the back of the head, which I am not sure if I have mentioned elsewhere. Is there a secret Tarth handbook? We spent a lot of time in Ned's head in Game of Thrones, and if there is a secret Stark handbook, no one gave it to Ned. Is there a secret Dayne handbook? Has Edric read it? Did Arthur have a copy? Obviously the handbook is a metaphor. To what extent do any of these houses know their real history?

[LmL]

You are welcome. :cool4:

Nice topic.

Anyhow, Voice of the First Men is right when he says that WW's like moonlight, or as he put it

It is only logical because The Moon is an Ice Moon. The one that was destroyed was Fire Moon. So it makes sense that in the black of Night under the light of their magical homeland/source of power that they would thrive.

So, when you propose that for the second Long Night to happen, the Ice Moon has to be destroyed. I kinda agree, but would that make WW's and their minions weaker than if it was up there shining upon them? Or will the playing field be level again for both Ice and Fire? Will it mean extinction for both Dragons and the WW's?! I think this. So the Age of Men and only men can truly begin, and the season can go back to normal. At least until Planetosians evolve until the point where they are killing it with waste, polution and all of the nice things we do to our mother Earth. Until the third and the last LN takes care of them. Like Snowball Earth is going to demolish us, sooner rather than later.

Ice moons are usually a rocky core with an ice-rock crust and water in between. When the comet hits the ice moon, it should lose its water and ice but the rocky moon will remain. So it seems like this would lead to a non-magical earth, as you suggest. I'm not sure what effects this will have - will that water and ice make it to earth, like some ungodly rain / ice storm? Will it weaken the others? Hard to say.

Yes obviously moonlight is the light the others like - but moonlight on a mountain opt sword doesn't mean it represents the Others. In the prologue fight, Waymar's sword shines in the moonlight, and then breaks against the other's sword. If it is a metaphor for anything (and it surely is), Waymar represents the Last Hero, who is the person who famously broke his sword against the cold. That was my point. Of course there is a heavy connection between Others and the Ice Moon. t's just tricky when you are interpreting metaphors, because sometimes George hides a fire metaphor in an icy scene, and all the icy language is supposed to be 'translated' into a fire equivalent. Other times, he seems to be talking about fire and ice as two sides of the same coin, so he's pointing out truths that apply to both. Both swords, for example, have glass, stone, and steel. Different forms of each, but sometimes that pattern appears in the middle of ice and fire imagery. I try to stay a bit open minded even when I think I have interpreted something correctly, because sometimes a slight twist or inversion changes everything... so you can be really close, yet really far.

[Jak Scaletongue]

This brings up a topic that is always in the back of the head, which I am not sure if I have mentioned elsewhere. Is there a secret Tarth handbook? We spent a lot of time in Ned's head in Game of Thrones, and if there is a secret Stark handbook, no one gave it to Ned. Is there a secret Dayne handbook? Has Edric read it? Did Arthur have a copy? Obviously the handbook is a metaphor. To what extent do any of these houses know their real history?

I've always felt that George tried to avoid situations in Ned's POV where any of his ancient family history is at the forefront of his mind. Like In The godswood - it's Catelyn's POV, so we're told by Catelyn to assume he's thinking of the man he just killed (which he may have been, I'm just using it as an example, but he could have been thinking about why he cleans his sword in the pond by the heart tree). And of the three oldest children, Jon (the odd one out) is the only one who has a POV in Winterfell. What are the chances George is trying to hide something from us that Robb and/or Sansa know about their home? It's always seemed like GRRM is hiding something in Sansa, of the Starks who get a POV, she's the only one that doesn't have one in Winterfell.

On topic: I love these essays! I don't have much to contribute, cause honestly most of it goes over my head while I'm reading! But I've been following them all and find them fascinating! All the contributions are fantastic! These are great threads, where everyone gets along, disagrees amicably, uses full sentences when responding! I love it! Thanks, all of you, for the great reads!